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RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion

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9/22/2013 15:44:08   
DJ9K
Member

@Melody: But if we use random choice, or random use it becomes complicated. A random choice of which attack to use may effect things, or if they still have a % chance to use skills while they have CD. In which case it may be batter to just lower the % to use by 5-10%
The sticking can be caused by faulty scripting, failure of the flash loading, or even just something having a burp in the process from what I learned when I did a few flash animations.
Difficult scripts become faulty easily. 1 wrong button = fail.

Actually, that's quite true, it is possible for an enemy to still hit you, and some enemies have high bonus. But, even with my lower level class, I can 'typically' go an entire match without taking any damage at all, making NSTB and blinds my current static strategy. Which isn't much more complicated than mana-burning.

@Fae: Ice dragons... those aren't bosses, they're minions xD! That's why they're always with someone :3 But, put something like that on a boss, where he uses a skill that makes him immune to mana-damage for blank amount of turns, than heals mana for blank amount of time that's slightly less than the mana-damage immunity, but makes them unable to move for a turn or two. That could be a nice addition for 1 or 2 bosses. Or even a recurring minor one.
Post #: 101
9/22/2013 15:51:51   
Faerdin
Rune Knight


 And the power that Blinding has attained as a strategy is not necessarily positive.

Also, when the Ice Dragons accompany Frostscythe, they are Boss Monsters. They are not when left alone. That could make for an interesting Boss Monster, though. :)

< Message edited by Faerdin -- 9/22/2013 15:53:41 >

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AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 102
9/22/2013 15:54:51   
Sentimental Melody
Member

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. They already use RNG to decide whether specials happen or not, so it wouldn't make it more complicated. Or are you suggesting cooldowns that are not absolute? o.O And if you check for one special before another, that would be an order decided by the programmer ahead of time based on what move they want the boss to favor. It would be the same every time.

Well, I'm not sure flash loading is affected by the computation, except maybe if it tries to load something more often? As for faults, I went through and analyzed why I think the coding would not be more complicated at all. All you have to do is compute a threshhold rather than having a static one, but the formula is very simple.

...I've never used those bubbles. I can't ever get them to drop for any of my characters. >->;

< Message edited by Sentimental Melody -- 9/22/2013 15:58:52 >
DF  Post #: 103
9/22/2013 15:59:33   
DJ9K
Member

@Fae: That's debatable rather we think the allies/guests of bosses are bosses themselves xD - a debate for a separate thread.

@Melody: I mean, if it has a 50% chance to use, and a 5 turn CD, than after 5 turns, it may be used, or not used for another 5 turns. Whereas it could have been used all 5 times when it was on CD. Making an enemy too easy. Making a boss always use a skill when it's off CD however could cause confusion in deciding which skills should have the priority in use. Or if their use should be up to chance - which may cause the boss to just not use one at all.

Them bubbles be pretty over-powered. 5 turn CD for -50 BTH.... can keep an enemy from landing an attack for a very long time.
Post #: 104
9/22/2013 16:04:10   
The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*
quote:

Their Mana regeneration, if I remember correctly, could very easily be limited by Mana-burning Skills if doing so was worth the turn.


Their MP regen mechanic forced them to spend 1-2 turns regenerating enough mp before it's even possible for them to use their fancy attack again.
Because of this, enemy regen that "spends" turns before they can start using threatening skills, effectively giving you 1-2 turns to brace yourself.

< Message edited by The ErosionSeeker -- 9/22/2013 16:05:03 >
DF AQW  Post #: 105
9/22/2013 16:05:26   
Dwelling Dragonlord

ArchKnight AQ / OOC / L&L


 I personally think that set mana is not really a problem. It is there to limit specials, nothing more and nothing less. In fact, it would help making the game more challenging at later levels as bosses get to use their specials more often unless you plan ahead and make use of skills which damage mana.

@DJ9K: The Ice Hatchling would like to have a word with you.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 106
9/22/2013 16:08:19   
Sentimental Melody
Member

@DJ9K: Well yes, that's pretty much the point I was trying to make! xP That's why I like my solution over cooldowns. Although having say, a 90% chance for a skill that also has cooldowns would mean that most of the time it gets used when it can, but allow it to occasionally switch things up. And like I said, priority would become a design decision based on what you actually want the boss to favor.

So what you're saying is that I should go farm for the bubbles more? x3

Anyway, point of this: Imagine we have the threshhold of a skill set as .001 * t^3. Probability of using it on the next turn after you've already used it: .1%. Probability of using it by the tenth turn after last use: 100%. Works nice, yeah? I think my initial plan of x * t is a bit too naive. We need a higher-order equation. xP

< Message edited by Sentimental Melody -- 9/22/2013 16:09:59 >
DF  Post #: 107
9/23/2013 10:24:20   
Melissa4Bella
AmeSylph


 Whoah! I just read through this thread and there are some amazingly thoughtful ideas being discussed. Good job, everyone! :)

However, I must also caution that there is no need to be "right". There is no need to try and out-argue another player. One idea is just as good as another, all things considered. Geo specifically FAQ'd this thread so that EVERYBODY'S ideas can be seen and not have the thread drop down out of existence.
Taking that into account, there is no right or wrong, no superior or inferior. Discussion is wanted, debates and arguments - not so much

Let's keep this discussion going! *knows that Geo and Verly are just storing away all sorts of ideas*
AQ DF  Post #: 108
9/23/2013 13:41:25   
DJ9K
Member

@Melody: Yeah, I see that now. But I guess if we were to set up a % chance of use, that's very high once it's off CD but still has a chance to not be used, it would help not only prevent predictability, but also make it so if multiple skills are off CD the enemy could use them in a questionable order, and since we the player probably won't be able to figure out the CD time with the randomness, it could keep us on our toes looking for the attacks.

Farming NSTB it is up to you. I've farmed 2 trinkets on 4 characters, and each time it's been around 7-15 completions to get them. Which for me isn't that much, but others it may.

@Dwelling: Ice Hatchling? Please refresh my memory. :)


Edit: Planning to make a list of all that we have now. I'd like to ask for help on getting all the ideas we have, as well as pros and cons of each of them together. Not only ones already stated in the thread so far but any others you can think of.

< Message edited by DJ9K -- 9/23/2013 13:52:20 >
Post #: 109
9/23/2013 14:59:59   
Starstruck
Member

hee hee hee hee

On my first run through, Baron Jaysun literally rolled his stun move every turn except the final one, which was that humongo extreme power attack. I actually no kidding thought he was supposed to be unbeatable like Seppy, and then the cutscene restarted and I rage quit.

Suddenly on the second run through he started being a little more reasonable about stun moves and I was able to defeat him. Took a little bit of learning (WAIT HIS SHIELD HEALS HIM WHY IS THIS) but in the end with some gratuitous NSTB I was able to defeat him with most of the classes just for fun. First defeat of his was actually with Necromancer because that's my favorite class :3 It still needs buffs though, mostly in rewording and replacing a few problem skills.

The Ice Hatchling was an interesting case. I believe it and the Minx Fairy (UGH SO ANNOYING BUT SO CUTE) were the only non-PvP enemies to ever use mana. Minx Fairy was alright, but Ice Hatchling's mana system made no sense. Its mana-regenerating skill was about as powerful as its mana-expending skill, and it would spam them both.

I'd be very interested in a boss who has 18 skills and uses them in a player-esque strategic manner, like PvP but more exciting. Perhaps an enemy for whom those skills have already been defined, like an enemy boss Pyromancer or an enemy boss Kathool Adept. Maybe even the return of enTropy!
DF MQ  Post #: 110
9/23/2013 17:54:20   
The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*
quote:

@Dwelling: Ice Hatchling? Please refresh my memory. :)


There are 5 Ice Dragon-type monsters that spend MP to deal AoE, and have a 1-target attack that heals MP.
Glaisaurus
Ice Hatchling
Ice Dragon
Ice Dragon General
Young Ice Dragon

quote:

The Ice Hatchling was an interesting case. I believe it and the Minx Fairy (UGH SO ANNOYING BUT SO CUTE) were the only non-PvP enemies to ever use mana. Minx Fairy was alright, but Ice Hatchling's mana system made no sense. Its mana-regenerating skill was about as powerful as its mana-expending skill, and it would spam them both.

The purpose was that its breath skill was more effective and would hit all characters (so you AND your guests), instead of just attacking one of them. The mp regen skill just let Ice Dragons recharge.
DF AQW  Post #: 111
9/24/2013 8:09:12   
Backspace
Member

I guess Technomancer's speicality skill will finally be useful outside of PvP.
Post #: 112
9/25/2013 9:55:31   
lmno
Member

Bosses with stunning moves are the worst, because there stun isn't on cool down, wile you have to wait 18 round to use yours again. they should just add a cool down to the monsters attacks, of give you stun immunity for 16-18 turns along with the 3 turn stun.

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Post #: 113
9/25/2013 12:42:46   
DJ9K
Member

@Imno: Well, there is a way to increase your immobility resistance. Of course, with the current lack of gear that gives it, we can't really build any.

Hmm, that be something else than. More gear to build things like stun resistance. I mean, we're always getting new gear. Why not have more that aids in resistances that aren't just elemental?
Post #: 114
9/27/2013 4:37:54   
yaseen.t
Member

ive beaten them with riftwalker. I just love riftwalker!!!

those ice dragons stand no chance against the technomancer. finally it comes to use

Please don’t double post it counts as spam and only clutters the page.
Use the button instead.
Posts merged ~San Robin

< Message edited by San Robin -- 9/27/2013 5:33:19 >
DF AQW  Post #: 115
9/27/2013 20:29:12   
soulus42
Member

For me it was Mysterious G who posed the problems for me when I was soloing. Anyways, being able to repeatedly drain all my mana in one shot and pretty much straight away after using a mana potion, he becomes quite a pain but it can be remedied simply by having help. I used Rolith and it helped greatly, except against the robots, to deal enough damage to him as before I found myself beaten after a while (I use ascendant). Was a nice challenge though :P
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 116
9/28/2013 0:23:25   
ISpeakTheTruth
Member

Well I've been catching up on the recent quest line and I just played the Mysterious G quest on extreme because well why not. The problem with Mysterious G is that his mana drain comes off as a very cheap ability namely the moment you realize he has the ability the fight has already been lost. There is no strategy to him you either stun lock him, or use potions to slowly slowly chip away at him. Honestly after awhile I just let him win because it was getting boring only to realize I didn't get sent back to the boss fight I got sent back all the way to the beginning of the quest with no health and no mana so I had to leave. At that point I lost all interest in doing it again because getting to him is a hassle because the quest is a maze that wears out its welcome.

I have no problem with having a boss be tough and having it take strategy to beat but Mysterious G is the only time in my years of playing where I completely annoyed at the game. If you're going to have a cheap attack like that on a boss that's fine but if you lose let us come back to the boss fight.

Maybe the majority of my problem is with quest structure rather than the boss but if you don't know what Mysterious G's ability is and strictly take him out first you've either auto lost or your stuck with a painfully slow fight that if you lose you've wasted about ten minutes because you have to do everything all over again.

Please never build a quest like this again. I'm going to walk away and attempt this bog of a quest at a latter date.
DF  Post #: 117
9/28/2013 1:52:45   
shadow1531
Member

Someone said to bring rolith along to the Gnome quest, but Rolith heals the machines!
AQ DF  Post #: 118
9/28/2013 5:52:12   
The Odor
Member

ISTT: Well, the machines you killed on your last runthrough are still dead. Just make note of the path to the boss and walk there.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 119
9/28/2013 12:21:48   
DJ9K
Member

The best strategy for M.G. is to take a weapon with a strong special. I preferred the Hampstergeadon weapons since it game him -200 ??? resistance, making it very easy to kill him. And using Cheshire Twilly, who has a chance of healing you for 10% hp, helped a lot. And since he's a 100% drop rate from the last quest of the Wanderland quests, it's not a hard farm.

But on the note of M.G. since he's been brought up. His ability to utterly remove all mana in a moments notice is the issue I see. So, what could we do to help ease this for all players, free, DA, DC using, No DC, etc, without completely removing the challenge factor that they were going for?
Post #: 120
9/28/2013 20:32:42   
  Zyrain
The Arcane


 I must say that I definitely struggled with boss battles when I was a free player, and I mean a lot! But eventually, I got through after changing tactics and maxing out my HP potions.

However, now that I have a DA I find bosses much easier -- especially with the full skills of DragonLord, SoulWeaver and Ascendant at my advantage. Yes, there are still a few battles where I may die a couple if times... but the struggle to win is what makes the game more fun and challenging, as well as making the achievements of defeating bosses worth more value to me personally.

These crazy new bosses such as ManaCrest and Mysterious G have been even more enjoyable, where I really have to use tactics and think before I act.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 121
9/28/2013 20:52:31   
Jorath
Advocator of Wills


 DJ9K: Lowering the amount of Mana you lose should be a viable outcome. I cannot see why a boss monster would have the ability to instantly incapacitate a player's MP within the first few seconds of a battle.

< Message edited by Leon ShadowHart -- 9/28/2013 20:55:20 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 122
9/28/2013 21:00:23   
Faerdin
Rune Knight


 The problem with changing Mysterious G is that it could easily result in him being made a glorified equivalent of Veyla. Dx
Discouraging Mana-usage is really off-putting, but can force creativity out of people as a result.

@Zyrain: Exactly! :D
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 123
9/28/2013 21:06:56   
DJ9K
Member

@Zyrain: Yes, a lot of us agree on this. But many of us fear for people still without a DA and who don't farm or level their potions or anything like that. :) Tell me, how would you do with these current new bosses as you were before your DA?

@Leon: I don't lose all my mana when he uses it o.o and I find that since he takes about 3 turns before even can use it again (even though we can't move for 2 of those turns) it leaves me at least 1 more skill. So if we were to blind or stun him before that 1st drain it could aid us a LOT.
But, reducing how much it drains could help - as well as making the exhaustion stun only last 1 turn.

@Faer: While I do ask for ways to make him in particular easier, I'm sure the DF staff don't plan on changing him. This however could help for future bosses that ever have skills similar to his. Like a mana drain/attack
Post #: 124
9/28/2013 21:12:18   
  Zyrain
The Arcane


 DJ9K: Oh, I agree that they may be extremely tough fights, but if they do not farm XP or level their potions, then that is something which is also their fault as they can do something about that, even if it is tiresome to do so. If a level 80 non-DA with maxed-out potions couldn't defeat a boss, then that is a different matter.

AE need to sell the upgrade well, and by making boss fights slightly easier for DA holders, that is a great selling point.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 125
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