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9/28/2013 21:52:03   
imran102
Member

Excuse me for a moment, but isn't DragonFable a casual game? Which means, a game that's meant for the players to just enjoy? I'm pretty sure most players of DF are like me, who play it for the silly puns and interesting storyline. We casual players don't expect to farm or strategise, we're just here for fun.

That being said however, by all means, keep the current difficulity. Give us a price for the interesting storyline. Makes it more worthwhile. And it makes the players who actually like the difficulity happy. But this still gives us the problem of the casual gamers not enjoying DF.

So I propose a new gamemode. Aside for the current Normal and Hard/Extreme, give us Casual or Easy. Perhaps in this mode, all enemies would only have 75% HP and MP, and bosses would only use their special abilities half the time, or would work only half as good? (E.g. Mysterious G's mana drain only drains half your mana.)

Thank you for reading this far.
Post #: 126
9/28/2013 22:11:56   
Sentimental Melody
Member

That's an interesting thought, imran. However I fear people would abuse it to farm for either xp or gold. So in addition to being easier, perhaps such a mode, if it were implemented, should also give you reduced reward. After all, if you're truly playing just for fun and story, leveling up or hoarding gold for uber items is of less import, yes?

I'd also recommend that any "casual" mode not apply to wars, or people could also abuse it to beat (foot)waves faster.
DF  Post #: 127
9/28/2013 22:25:14   
imran102
Member

Hmmn, yes, those are good suggestions to add on to mine, Sentimental Melody. Yes, reduced rewards is a must to avoid abuse, and quest item rewards chances have to be halved too. And for wars, yes, that is a good idea as well, but it should stay in the case of the war bosses.
Post #: 128
9/29/2013 3:11:17   
Kazuki_Kitsuki
Member

The only problem I have is bosses, like Jaysun, spamming their stun attack. I got hit by that repeatedly and died in spite of wearing Doom Knight. He was acting like it was his only attack! MG did the same thing, though he sapped all my mana in one go and, after I recovered and used a mana potion, he went and stunned me again! Rather than putting the RNG in charge of that, maybe the stun attacks should have a cool down or something like that, make it so that the RNG can't select it again for five turns or something.

I honestly like the increasing difficulty, but the stun spamming is just frustrating and takes away from the game.

@imran102: Easy doesn't exist in my game vocab, not until I've beaten the game once. Since DF can't be beaten, easy/casual doesn't exist. That and, as Melody said, it would be abused to the Nth degree. And they also pointed out the same suggestion I was going to offer; a reduction of xp/gold per battle. That's how they made hard mode more interesting.
DF MQ  Post #: 129
9/29/2013 11:40:26   
DJ9K
Member

@Kazuki - He always waits 2-3 turns between using his mana drain. You're just stunned for 2 turns.


Easy mode wouldn't be the best implementation to do. But instead, perhaps an Easy button, like we have an Extreme button, for bosses. That way it can't be used for farming unless you wanna farm a specific item (which they got DC buy shops at the end of quests now anyways). And since it's just a boss button, it won't apply to any quests or normal mobs (which even casual players shouldn't have too much problem with). That way it can't be abused and you still get the easy/casual boss fighting for those players.

Post #: 130
9/29/2013 12:40:53   
salene
Member

an easy button does sound logical, although then more excpierienced players could just breeze through the release. so perhaps an easy button for players level 30-40 and below. as for stun spanning, it just gives us a challenge that i quite enjoy. not only are the bosses getting stronger, but they are also becoming more interesting. perhaps the next boss will have a super strong poison, or a block move, or a counter attack move.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 131
9/29/2013 13:17:32   
Ramix The Red Ace
Member

So long as they can make it so that the boss stats scale accurately with levels, an easy button doesn't really seem necessary. The big problem with the latest bosses is their ability to spam OP skills. As has been mentioned before, actual mana drain on the bosses or CD on their skills seems like the best solution.

_____________________________

DF MQ AQW  Post #: 132
9/29/2013 13:18:59   
Chaosweaver Amon
Friendly!


quote:

So I propose a new gamemode. Aside for the current Normal and Hard/Extreme, give us Casual or Easy. Perhaps in this mode, all enemies would only have 75% HP and MP, and bosses would only use their special abilities half the time, or would work only half as good? (E.g. Mysterious G's mana drain only drains half your mana.)


Very interesting idea, maybe we could have our first ever NON-DA feature? it might be difficult to do...but for bosses like Mysterious G, and Mana Crest, and any other upcoming bosses of similar difficulty, Non DA players, seeing as they have more limits on their power, could have an easy button...?
DF  Post #: 133
9/29/2013 18:45:30   
Viva rocks
Member

Easy mode sounds good to me! I tried 5 times to beat Mysterious G - and even checked to make sure I hadn't accidentally clicked on Extreme by mistake - and failed every time. I was using SoulWeaver, and I don't really want to switch to any other class because it's my favourite. You shouldn't have to use a particular class or guest to beat a boss.

As another, slightly related point: I was told that the best combination is to have Paladin armour and Aegis, but I thought you could only get Aegis with SoulWeaver equipped. Did I get the wrong end of the stick about that? :S
AQ DF  Post #: 134
9/29/2013 18:58:25   
Faerdin
Rune Knight


Using Aegis as a Guest with Paladin is possible if you equip the SoulWeaver Armor, invite Aegis to your party, and then equip the Paladin Armor. Doing so will not remove him as a Guest and therefore allow you to use Aegis and Paladin at the same time.

The problem with making any Class capable of defeating any Boss Monster is that doing so completely eliminates the necessity from Class choice. Each Class is only capable of employing so many strategies, and creating a Boss Monster that EVERY strategy is effective against removes any difficulty from the game. What does it matter if you use Paladin or SoulWeaver when both ultimately accomplish the same thing no matter what? Creating varied and challenging Boss Monsters ensures that every Class can still be valuable. :)

Zyrain hit the nail on the head in his post with this quote:
quote:

AE need to sell the upgrade well, and by making boss fights slightly easier for DA holders, that is a great selling point.
By making the game more difficult for non-DA players, an incentive is provided for DragonFable players to purchase a Dragon Amulet. Free players still have remarkable freedom in terms of following the storyline. It just requires more work on the part of the free player to progress through that story than a DragonLord.

_____________________________

AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 135
7/8/2014 2:56:52   
NagisaXIkari
Member

That was quite the read!

I see no qualms with MP consumption so long as it's done in a manner that it doesn't make Mana Burn until the enemy can't do a thing too viable and isn't just plain pointless as is the case of the (Deft) Minx Faeries.

If you clear a dungeon and the boss is some High Archmage of Asswhoopin' that on the basis of being a mage should use MP then it should do so. To avoid simplying Mana Burning it to death, once its MP drops to a certain point it starts regenerating MP.

At best you lock it out of using it's heavier hitting abilities while it can still use its own abilities to rip you apart. And if worse comes to worse, I'm certain it'd have some kind of.attack equvilant to the PC's attack button.

_____________________________

I'll take the world on my own terms. I want disease but not the germs.
I want the moon to cling to me. So let your silence sing to me.
An endless endless symphony. Till all I lost instinctively returns.
DF  Post #: 136
7/8/2014 16:16:16   
WHITE DRAGON MAGE
Member

Well the mana crest boss was damn hard she had crazy offence capabilities, it took me a few tries before I found a strategy with my kathool adept class to beat her, but you'd be surprised what a difference just switching classes can do, because as powerful as the kathool adept is it isn't very versatile. But I think the new necromancer could come in handy with difficult bosses, with that ability to gain 140 resistance to the element of the last attack against you you will be able to use the bosses offence to actually heal you. Oh and Faerdin that loophole with Aegis is nothing new, I discovered that around the same month it was released.

< Message edited by WHITE DRAGON MAGE -- 7/8/2014 16:19:16 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 137
7/8/2014 21:20:08   
trey1232
Member

Let me start by saying that I am a DA-holder who uses Riftwalker for almost every battle. I agree with others saying that the bosses are definitely difficult without access to DA content (how I would have beaten Dr. When without my dragon and Rolith to soak up damage, I will never know). Here is how I understand it so far (correct me if I am wrong):

1) No one wants "harder" bosses to be more hp/less damage tanks since it would just be more of what there is now.
2) Bosses the likes of Mysterious G. are too difficult for the casual gamers of DragonFable just in it for the story, but are welcome relief from the steamrolling high-level DA-holders do for most of the game.

To the above I would suggest a similar button to "Let a DragonLord handle it," allowing casual players to skip the boss (at the cost of quest drops, perhaps), but still get on with the story. That, or many of the other ideas already suggested

I will say that I have never fought Baron Jaysun Valrith (missed the 13th event), and heard of Manacrest for the first time here. From the stories I am hearing, Valrith seems like a weakened Wargoth (the unbeatable boss in the Wrath of Wargoth war), maybe lacking the amount of raw damage and healing power Wargoth puts out, but still has the annoying stun. This stun is probably the only thing I have a problem with. I mean, it is one thing to have a monster reduce your bonus to hit with an outrageously low number, making you incapable of *easily* landing a hit; but it is another thing entirely to lose a turn and not be able to do anything at all. The first allows you to buff yourself in order to make up for the momentary loss of damage, or perhaps use a potion. The other, when used too often, is like starting off the battle with 1/4 to 1/2 of your health gone. I feel like chain-stunning should be reserved for VERY difficult/unbeatable bosses, to represent that beating this monster is impossible, or merely for bragging rights.

As for suggestions for change, it seems like most of the good ones have been taken already... Perhaps, instead of a flat-out "easy mode," there could be some set difficulty for bosses that decreases with every subsequent loss, like Kid Icarus Uprising. Perhaps more variations to the boss' themselves would help as well. I especially liked how in Book 3, Z was nigh untouchable until you defeated the goons with him, and I also liked Guffer (Yaga Stone Circle Boss), whose difficulty tied into the remaining amount of monsters. Either that, or have monsters who specifically counter certain player strategies (Titan Wargoth and his debuff preventing the use of the powerful Bacon primal, Mysterious G. and his mana-burning attack, Sepulchure and his increased everything for switching items come to mind).

I am somewhat surprised Titan-battles haven't come up in this discussion, but I feel that they are slightly better off difficulty-wise than the bosses we face on foot because there is already variation between many of them. This is likely because they appear at the end of quest chains. I liked how many of the titan battles gave you guests that significantly altered the course of battle (Aquella, Sepulchure, the Professor), guest that, if defeated, you would lose the battle with almost definite certainty. Perhaps we need something similar for normal boss battles.

From what I understand, boss difficulty here means how far the player must deviate from their basic attack order (as a warrior, it tended towards stun -> power -> warcry -> double -> triple -> defend -> final -> repeat, and as a Riftwalker power -> warcry -> double -> triple -> final -> repeat if not dead by the first move) in order to defeat a boss. Aside from the bosses already mentioned in this thread, and those at the end of the primal quests, I cannot think of any beatable boss that caused me to deviate heavily from this while playing (level 63 Riftwalker who takes Rolith and a fully trained dragon on just about every non-Book 3 adventure with health/mana potions at about 480/~150 (usually unnecessary) and a beastmaster build for perspective).

Thinking about being a non-DA here: the sheer thought of being restricted to the left side of any class while taking on a boss the likes of Dr. When sends shivers down my spine. If I were a free player faced with that, and was told that this were to continue for every boss thereafter, I probably would have put down this game forever.

Apologies if I veered off-topic.
DF  Post #: 138
7/8/2014 22:36:32   
NagisaXIkari
Member

Not sure why Titans battles would come up. Outside of the Guardian Dragon they're largely pretty min. Then again I haven't finished Book One, so Book Two & Three titans may be bloody difficult.
DF  Post #: 139
7/9/2014 3:49:16   
DJ9K
Member

@Nagisa: Titan Wargoth is pretty much all I have to say here. Most have a LOT of trouble with his normal form, some of them even unable to beat it. And only 2 people have beaten his extreme form.(Me and Baron Dante) - Other than him, Guardian Dragon, and SMUDD(beating SMUDD without a "continue" or basically without dying once) the rest of the titans are pretty decent.

I honestly feel like all bosses need, are an even harder "extreme" mode. One that is balanced around top-tier players who have the best gear and best classes. (mind you, if you use DmK you're not allowed to complain about "easy"... PERIOD)
Adding that, something like "True form" battles or something like that which are meant to be somewhat challenging for the top-tier players would probably be better than an easy mode or making bosses harder on the poor NDA players.
Just my thoughts~

_____________________________

Post #: 140
7/9/2014 5:11:34   
samdalrymple123
Member
 

My only problem with the bosses is when you dont have a 'heal' button just before you fight them. It means you have to redo the entire quest a million times, and not just redo the boss.
Post #: 141
7/9/2014 5:20:12   
Lemonus
Member

Dr. When and G are ridiculously hard for non-DAs, especially the first one since you'd need ridiculous amounts of luck as a non-DA ;-; They should probably tone those down...
quote:

and SMUDD(beating SMUDD without a "continue" or basically without dying once)

I never had trouble with SMUDD back when I was a wee Free Player... I even farmed it for XP.

Just blind it :x
DF AQW  Post #: 142
7/9/2014 5:45:13   
DJ9K
Member

SMUDD itself isn't too hard.. you can't exactly lose considering you come back if you're defeated and can fight on >.>.. It's defeating all parts of the body without dying once that's difficult~ of course, I only do extreme mode >.>; but yeah...
Post #: 143
7/9/2014 13:21:30   
_DoppelGanger_
Member

I'm a free player and don't remember how but I beat Dr. When in only 3 tries, don't remember the class since it was a long time ago but i think it was with SW and Aegis and a lot of luck '-' but the Manacrest and Mysterious G. gave me a reeeeeeeeeeeally hard time 10 tries or above until i give up and bring Aegis and Professor with me
Post #: 144
7/9/2014 16:51:48   
Glerax
Member

Mysterious Gnome was the only boss I had trouble with.

Him and his mana stealing...gr.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 145
7/9/2014 17:34:56   
Deathlydarkranger
Member

not sure if this has been posted but I think that boss skills shouldn't use mana because of technomancer ... either that or the bosses will have mana regen
Post #: 146
7/9/2014 19:53:01   
Deviance
Member

I barely took out the mysterious g with necromancer the other day. Just had to kill him, using stuns and DoTs, along with a nice shield. Also got to get lucky :p I like difficult bosses like that, they teach you strategy instead of mindless button pressing.
DF  Post #: 147
7/9/2014 20:16:30   
Mordred
Member

What bothers me about bosses is that they give the same rewards as a mook now. They should give dramatically more EXP and gold, like in the old days. The fights are more difficult, and should have a greater yield.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 148
7/9/2014 20:36:07   
Dracojan
Member

the skills of the bosses are chance based and thats what bothers me. i have some fights where the boss doesnt do anything and its rather easy and other times when even dmk cant do it because the right effects are working all the time.
my example would be mana crest when she used her shield almost all the time and in the meantime she was striking me with the nuke. this lasted for enough turns to kill me. it outlasted my heal, which did nothing, void wasnt enough to kill her and none of my other skills could hit so they did nothing.

< Message edited by Dracojan -- 7/9/2014 20:42:04 >
DF  Post #: 149
7/9/2014 22:05:42   
The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*


quote:

What bothers me about bosses is that they give the same rewards as a mook now. They should give dramatically more EXP and gold, like in the old days. The fights are more difficult, and should have a greater yield.


I had an idea a while ago where monster xp and gold gains should be tied to their hp instead of being scaled for a level (and so Extreme Full Darkness would give ~80k). The fact that it takes hundreds of thousands of xp to reach a level past 70 while every normal enemy gives something in the range of 500 is both depressing and makes people farm Voltabolt.

It's insanely fast for its reward, and it's as mindless as buttonmashing to defeat everything.


For bosses, a really good question is "how many times do you want a player to fight this enemy". If it's storyline relevant, they have to go through it, and if it's near impossible, it better be an end boss or something similar to that.

If we were to grade bosses on difficulty level, here's what I think it should normally look like:

-arc start boss: medium difficulty, has one or two special abilities, should put the player down to ~half their hp. Entropic Earth Boss has a few special abilities, and doesn't do too much because the big thriller of the Earth Orb was the double titan fight.
-quest bosses: big amount of hp or damage. Should not pose significant threat. Vince from the Rose quest chain is just that, a tanky boss that is easy enough with a bit of know-how
-arc end boss: should have very interesting and intricate skills. Davey, Valtrith, and Akriloth are examples of what arc end bosses should feel like. Powerful, hard to crack, and probably a treat to battle.
-titan: anything goes!

Mysterious G and When are less stellar examples of bosses being rightfully powerful.
They weren't arc enders (maybe When was), and they presented significant trouble for players due to their raw power. When was able to break through conventional defenses due to his default 17 hits as well as absurdly high stats, while Mysterious G had a potent mana drain and stun skill packed together.

I'm okay with most of the difficulty pacing, but disproportionate xp is something that I feel awkward about, too.
DF AQW  Post #: 150
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