Home  | Login  | Register  | Help  | Play 

The [hopefully] Ultimate Luck Stat Fix

 
Logged in as: Guest
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Artix Entertainment Games] >> [EpicDuel] >> EpicDuel Balance >> The [hopefully] Ultimate Luck Stat Fix
Forum Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
9/28/2013 14:57:42   
toopygoo
Member

ok, so i hope to find a resolve with all of your help here to deal with luck.

we all agree that luck is a stat thats supposed to change the game, but we do realize that it has an effect greater than wished since a lot of battles end being altered by luck.

my rules:
im not looking for im not looking to debuff anything or buff anything, and no aspects of the game should be removed. im looking to add to the game a new effect(?) or something to decrease the overuse of luck that there currently is.

here is an idea that i daydreamed up. i know its not even close to perfect, so what i dont want is people telling me no its a bad idea because it (...). if you want to alter something, let me know HOW to change this idea or what YOU would do in my place, instead of its' mal-effects on the current game play.

Luck has an out of battle counter: blocks, deflects, crits all have a 5% chance of occuring, and this is unchangeable except by passives, or what i like the call the Critical-Counter (CC for short)

what is CC?
CC is a counter that counts how many times you have been critted, deflected or blocked. it will add a little bit to your luck meter for each time one happens against you. e.g. in one battle you are critted and deflected once each, you gain 2% to your luck meter) you can store up your built up luck and spend it in one game, to increase your chances of blocking/deflecting/critting. after it has been used, your luck meter returns to 0, and you can rebuild it again.

other things to keep in mind:
-CC has a maximum luck storage of 50% increase
-CC increases luck at a 1/X (exponentially negative) rate. e.g. you have 0 luck saved up. you get critted once, you gain 1%. you have 10% luck saved up, you get critted once, you gain 0.75% (CC can remember up to 3 decimal places) by 49% you gain 0.05% luck per crit. to ensure that really high percentages cannot be farmed easily.
-only the highest full % will be added to your total: e.g. you have 25.95% saved up, you activate CC, you use only 25% increase, the 0.95% is what you CC resets to instead of 0
to make up for bad luck on rage, getting deflected, critted or blocked on rage provides double % counter.
-blocking/deflecting does not reduce your saved up luck, but will subtract 0.05% every time you do it to someone else, from the total you gain from that game e.g. you have 0.00% luck saved up. you crit once, and block once, you gain+1.00%, and lose 0.05% making your total for the last game 0.95% increase rather than a 1.00

*by what was mentioned above, the perfect luck of 50.00% addition will be near impossible to achieve, unless you dont use your bot for a really long time. especially if you have lots of passives, giving them a little downside too instead of pure empowerment.

**i have not made any changes to rage, but if anyone has a problem with it, we can work on that here too.

thanks for reading guys, i look forward to your input, and updating this idea of mine. i know it was kind of long, and i wwill clarify anything that doesnt make sense, or is worded awkwardly.

Font size removed. Don't use size that's over three, as its consider spam. ~Mecha



< Message edited by Mecha Mario -- 9/28/2013 15:01:58 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 1
9/28/2013 16:27:17   
edwardvulture
Member

I thought about this, but it would be better if you get blocked, then your chance to get blocked gets smaller.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 2
9/28/2013 16:28:09   
toopygoo
Member

so your luck is affected by the turn which has just past?
AQW Epic  Post #: 3
9/28/2013 16:40:43   
edwardvulture
Member

Basically your idea but prevent luck instead of increase it for you
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 4
9/28/2013 16:46:54   
toopygoo
Member

alright, how, do you think i could incorporate that? :$ i want to add it, but im not sure how that would go... same idea, but the inverse?
id like to point out that all luck stats have decreased to 5% now, instead of 10%. we cant shut off luck completely because of some cores, and varium cores increase crit damage, which would make them unhappy.

if you can think of a way to add your idea to mine, i will gladly incorporate it to original text.
AQW Epic  Post #: 5
9/28/2013 18:02:21   
Mother1
Member

Ok a few things before I even say my thought on the idea itself.

1 Shadow arts

Not to sound like a downer even if they wanted to think about doing this they would have to give he hunter class a new move to replace shadow arts since it works with blocks. Doing this idea without doing that first would put hunters at a disadvantage since right there they would have this useless move or blank spot on their skill tree. Everyone says just replace this move with something new but what? In order for that to happen the move will need to be tested, and properly balanced before it can come into play. Otherwise you risk something being overpowered or underpowered.

2 People who paid money for items/cores that work with these factors

Next up would be that all passive cores that either increase or decrease luck factors would have to be removed from the game which would means that anyone who has purchased a core that increases or decreases luck factors or promo's like the Azreal's bane, Azreal's curse, The new azreal's scythe's and the Celtic items would have to get a full refund of what they spent on them sense you are removing them from the game meaning the staff would have to track who brought and still has these items/cores in their inventory.

Now as for the idea itself no offense but I am not a fan of it for the following reasons.

1 If I am reading correctly this idea nerf luck into the ground which means offensive builds would benefit from this the most mainly strength ones since if luck increases the most by 50% and the min is 5% the most we could have to block, crit or deflect would be 7.5% when normally max for blocks would be 35% (39 with ninja reflexes, 45 with shadow arts and 49 for both) Support has a max of 20% (Not sure of the max for deflections but it will nerf deflections as well. The only builds I can see reaping the benefits of this would be strength builds since blocks, deflections and crits hinder them and less of a chance of these to happen would be a buff to this. This would also make high dex, tech, and support builds show up less often because the added benefits to these builds would be nerfed into the ground. With the current balance while luck is high it still keeps strength builds and other builds in check so while you are trying to change luck your change would cause other balance issues.

2 It is a nerf to dex (since dex improves blocks) Tech (Deflect chance works with this) and Support (crit chance) which means 3 stats take a nerf for this.

3 With the way some people think and with the current balance this would cause the masses to go to strength builds and we will see even less variety in the game.
Epic  Post #: 6
9/28/2013 18:17:18   
toopygoo
Member

thanks for your in deoth response. i'd like to point a few things out (which i did mention in the original post, i just want to highlight.

you said
quote:

1 Shadow arts

would need to be removed/replaced and
quote:

2 People who paid money for items/cores that work with these factors

to which i point out the line:
quote:

Luck has an out of battle counter: blocks, deflects, crits all have a 5% chance of occuring, and this is unchangeable except by passives


in other words, shadow arts will remain as it is, and the cores can be kept as well. i know 10% gives a HUGE benefit, so thats the one things i would want to change.... although the conversion from passives to active needs to happen first so this is a difficult debate.

what i would try to emply is that shadow arts increase the % rate at which you can increase your luck saved up... like a "long term Rage build" so to speak.

4% cores can be kept, since they have an effect but nothing too drastic. in return, i suggest, that we emply cores for guns/aux/mains which decrease the amount of crits you take from that source overall. so you can get:
e.g.
Parry(sword)-Foresight(sidearm)-Shelter(Aux): Equipped core decreases chance for critical from same weapon as on which it is equipped
you have you lower enemy chance for critical by a maximum of 4%

your 3rd point strikes me, and i hae yet to critically think of a proper response, but i will get back to you, perhaps in a private message. perhaps re-introducing Agility but change it so inbalance between stats (king of like Anti-focus) decreases chance to hit which would result in a "Miss" dealing no damage, and gaining no rage, or luck. this would increase similarly to agility, (maximum of 8%) but at a slightly faster rate. it would also have a positive side like agility did for low HP, re-empowering a strong focus build. again, this is on the spot, so nothing too serious.

however with these points, i do believe we nerf all strength, dex, tech, and support about equally.
hope to hear from you soon
AQW Epic  Post #: 7
9/28/2013 20:31:54   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


Just to instill a thought into everyone's mind, luck is pretty much unstoppable and prevalent in any battle, normally where it's the main factor determining who wins. This is because the damage ranges of all your attacks are not set, most have a set damage range (For example, bunker and plasma cannon's damage range is 6), and also the opponent's defense/resistance range is factored in as well. You could win a fight and not have any blocks, crits, or deflects, and be very satisfied that you won fair and square, but you might have actually won because the RNG (or PRNG, if you want to be technical) ended up granting you the highest possible damage from the lowest end of the opponent's defense range and the highest end of your attack range. Basically, the RNGs for damage and defense ranges are gonna be the main factors of determining wins, and you could get really lucky with it and not even know you won the fight out of luck.
Epic  Post #: 8
9/28/2013 21:05:14   
toopygoo
Member

i agree completely, however, in the grand scheme of things, i think they only affect 1/10 battles outcomes... you deal damage multiple times each time the outcome is randomized so overall, you deal a neutral amount of damage.

the law of averages would state the the more times you deal damage, the less varied your average damage is.

e.g. you strike once dealing 23 damage
this means that:
your average attack deals 23 damage,
you most often deal 23 damage,
and you are most likely to deal 23 damage

next turn, you struck 20
now:
your average damage is 21.5
you most often deal 23 or 20 damage,
and your most likely to deal 21.5 damage.

third turn you strike 25
now:
your average damage is 23.25
you most often deal 20, 23, or 25 damage,
and you are most likely 23 damage

as the turns build you have eventually tallied up the damage you do:
23, 20, 25, 27, 14, 26, 37, 26

the numbers look like they change regularly, but overall you still dealt on average 24.75 = (approx) 25 damage each turn

whereas in the instance of a block you deal 3-4 (ive seen 7 but it was a really strong attack) if i am to include a single 3 in there watch what the new outcome is:
23, 20, 25, 27, 14, 26, 37, 26, 3:
the new average is 22.3 (approx 22)
a single attack has decreased your average damage from 25, by 3 point each turn, which over the course of 8 turns is already 24 damage less. a whole turn's worth.

so yes, exploding penguin, i admit your point is valid, however i claim that the impact of the RNG is minimal compared events such as deflects, blocks and crits.


also, i wish to demonstrate the odds of dealing maximum damage each turn as well:



lets say your strength gives 16-20 damage first turn, you have 5 (regular) options:

16
17
18
19
20

lets say you dealt 20 damage.
second turn: same options

16
17
18-16
19
20

16
17
18-17
19
20

16
17
18-18
19
20

16
17
18-19
19
20

16
17
18-20
19
20


you hit 20 again. you have hit 20, and 20. as you can see, the automatic odds of that occurrence are 1/25. at the same time, your enemy will have a shield, and the odds of them having minimal damage evaded each turn will have a 1/25 chance as well. now the odds have been raised to 1/(25*25)=1/625

this will exponentially increase each turn, thus reducing the effect of luck from this aspect of the game, just adding unpredictability!


< Message edited by toopygoo -- 9/28/2013 21:13:01 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 9
9/29/2013 1:34:26   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


While your mean damage is going to be the same and the standard deviation will definitely not be extremely large, those 8% chances and minuscule happenstances that come from luck strangely enough are about the same chances of the PRNG choosing you in its favor.

Therefore, luck through the damage calculation of the PRNG is going to be relatively similar to luck from blocks, deflects, and crits. At this point I'd have to argue that blocks, deflections, and crits are simply blamed too much for losses and people should look at the PRNG values.

Also, toopygoo is quite right with the statement on the law of averages, but I'd have to say that the PRNG really does make a more significant difference than one might think. Supposing damage dealt is an approximately normal distribution density curve, we can apply the Empirical rule and find that you'll be from 68% of the time (from ranges of 0.16-0.84 on the curve) be dealing damage within one standard deviation/z-score of the mean, which is probably going to be around 5 or less (I'm a poor estimator, but that should be about right). Those extreme cases where someone gains damage advantages in the tens is going to be within 2-3 z-scores of the mean, which is within 5% or less of the time. While this seems extremely average (it's called a normal distribution density curve for a reason), blocks and deflections sometimes have around 5% or so (typically just a tad bit higher), so the PRNG really is about as equal to blame for fights lost through luck compared to blocks, crits, and deflections.
Epic  Post #: 10
9/29/2013 13:57:39   
toopygoo
Member

@ exploding penguin

i agree with all of the math you have demonstrated, and i confirm your points. although i do not agree i shall add a fix to my original idea once you accept it ( it will be in your inbox. i'd appreciate a response of approval before i add it to the original post, and give credit where it is due.)

i wish to continue finding areas of error in the game and work through them with all of your help.
Thank You

(p.s. reason for disagreeing: PRNG ranges usually about 5 points like you said. a crit, deflect, block, guarantees damage dealt outside of the bell curve and can be way more unpredictable than a maximum of 10 points difference. nonetheless i concede.)

[FIX]
E.P. your inbox is full, so i am posting response here:


OK so this is what ti thought of doing to balance out PRNG, and reducing possibilities of favoritism from the system.

we double the existence of all 3 middle, and triple the existence of the median numbers, so e.g.: 25,26,26,27,27,27,28,28,29. now the odds of the extreme numbers are even lower and the middle number is the most common. i do not want to diminish the ranges of these numbers, because very regularized numbers would make the game too predictable and boring. however i wish to guarantee fairness in battles, an less reliance on outliers from a set of Data.

another implementation i was thinking of is labelling the highest and lowest possible numbers as a max and min variable, and with an if, then statement, giving them each a one turn cooldown, resetting max or minimum numbers after they have not occurred for a turn.

any thoughts on this are appreciated.

thank you

< Message edited by toopygoo -- 9/29/2013 14:15:34 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 11
9/29/2013 18:02:35   
lionblades
Member

I just got stunned 3 times in 1 battle wtf...
I was about to win with alot of hp but then:
Me: yay im at rage
Bounty: stun grenade *stuns*
Me: ;(
Bounty: Stun gun *stuns*
Me: :(
Then stun core in alux omg....
AQW  Post #: 12
9/29/2013 20:54:15   
toopygoo
Member

ok, so what do you suggest? do you wish to build on my idea? construct your own? i see the point your trying to prove, but not sure what to do with it :$
AQW Epic  Post #: 13
9/29/2013 21:51:18   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


quote:

I just got stunned 3 times in 1 battle wtf...
I was about to win with alot of hp but then:
Me: yay im at rage
Bounty: stun grenade *stuns*
Me: ;(
Bounty: Stun gun *stuns*
Me: :(
Then stun core in alux omg....


The chances were minimal and it was a one-in-a-lifetime happenstance, so I don't feel like there should be balance changes done to stuns?
Epic  Post #: 14
9/29/2013 21:55:51   
toopygoo
Member

yeah, i didnt include them at all in my new system cause i dont think they are worth it
at most, ensure that you cant get stunned 2 times in a row, but that really rare to begin with. i wouldnt touch them :/
AQW Epic  Post #: 15
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Artix Entertainment Games] >> [EpicDuel] >> EpicDuel Balance >> The [hopefully] Ultimate Luck Stat Fix
Jump to:






Icon Legend
New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Forum Content Copyright © 2018 Artix Entertainment, LLC.

"AdventureQuest", "DragonFable", "MechQuest", "EpicDuel", "BattleOn.com", "AdventureQuest Worlds", "Artix Entertainment"
and all game character names are either trademarks or registered trademarks of Artix Entertainment, LLC. All rights are reserved.
PRIVACY POLICY


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition