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RE: =DF= SoulWeaver (All versions) Discussion Thread

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4/17/2018 17:18:46   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

Than instead of adding double damage in each hit on BSW Valour's impact, Correct to 50% more damage, BSW From 34% to 51% and MSW From 80% to 120%, Decrease a Little In BSW To add in BMSW. Or Just Make BMSW Sync and Shield do The same as Baltael's Weaver

< Message edited by Shadow X Ascendant -- 4/17/2018 17:22:47 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 276
4/17/2018 17:30:13   
Zaleria
Member

It doesn't "need" to be a stronger buff than what SoulWeaver gets out of it, it's still a buff, because it goes from 80% x3 (240%), to 66% x6 (396%), it's still stronger than what it currently is, and more importantly a cooler animation.
DF AQW  Post #: 277
4/17/2018 17:30:45   
Greyor_42
Member

quote:

Than instead of adding double damage in each hit on BSW Valour's impact, Correct to 50% more damage, BSW From 34% to 51% and MSW From 80% to 120%, Decrease a Little In BSW To add in BMSW.


That could actually work. Valor impact would still be a very strong move on BSW, and it would get an appropriate increase in damage on BMSW, without being TOO overbearing in power.

quote:

It doesn't "need" to be a stronger buff than what SoulWeaver gets out of it, it's still a buff, because it goes from 80% x3 (240%), to 66% x6 (396%), it's still stronger than what it currently is, and more importantly a cooler animation.


I didn't say in needs to be a stronger buff. I said it needs to scale proportionately, that way BMSW would be to BSW what MSW is to SW, that way Baltail's Avventail would be a logical boost to both classes. Your solution is actually making it a weaker buff for MSW than it is for SW, which is an issue. With SW it more than doubles the damage. However, what is more than double damage for SW's Valor impact is barely more than a 50% increase for MSW. Why would an artifact meant equally for two classes support one so heavily more than the other? That simply makes no sense from a balancing standpoint.

Unfortunately, unless you were to nerf Baltael's Aventail for SW as well, making it scale proportionately is also a problem, for reasons that I have already stated several times. And the thing is, the devs have probably gone over all the ideas that have been thrown around already, and found that none of them work in a way that either doesn't heavily nerf something, make the artifact not even worth using for MSW, or completely break MSW in power.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 4/17/2018 17:39:37 >
DF  Post #: 278
4/17/2018 17:34:18   
TFS
Helpful!


 Baltael's Aventail already buffs regular Soulweaver to the point where it's arguably the best class in the game after Doomknight. If the devs were to make it work with Master Soulweaver as well, which is already a very powerful class on its own, they'd either have to significantly mitigate the artifact's effects or risk making MSW extremely overpowered.
DF  Post #: 279
4/17/2018 18:26:06   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

So The Valour Impact he already Correct to work equal on the Two Classes, Now The Shield, In BSW it causes 140% Avoidance for 4 Turns with 6 Cooldown, For MSW is 200% Avoidance for 2 Turns, So with BA, causing 200% Avoidance for 4 Turns with 6 Round cooldown, is acceptable ?
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 280
4/17/2018 18:38:36   
Greyor_42
Member

^Since it's a higher defense, I think 3 turns, but with the current cooldown would work. Remember, it has the -100 blind skill that has a 4 turn cooldown. We don't want its defenses to be too loopable.
DF  Post #: 281
4/17/2018 18:54:02   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

Ok so 200% Avoidance for 3 Turns with 7 Round Cooldown, (1 more for defense, 1 less for cooldown) and Now For "Full Sync", in BSW, It deals 5 Hits of 200% damage for a 1000% Nuke with 7 Rounds cooldown, For MSW 1st use - Applies +35 boost to yourself for 99 turns. (But if you use Purge to get rid of debuffs, you lose this buff too) 2nd use - Removes the boost and deals 3 hits of 155% damage for a total of 465% damage. So With MBSW, Causing The same animation, and 5 Hits of 250% Damage for a 1250% Nuke with 9 Round cooldown?
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 282
4/17/2018 18:57:49   
Zaleria
Member

Who said it had to be the same exact numbers for both classes? I don't think it works like that. They technically don't have the same skillset as is. And "Intended for both classes"? It does nothing for Master SoulWeaver, so I wouldn't say it was intended for both until that is resolved.

Are artifacts even taken into consideration with tier balancing? I mean, just look at Dragonlord, Dragon's Rage is incredibly strong, and it's a trinket, so it's using a slot that isn't as valuable as helmets... It's like a solid 40%+ damage buff to most of Dragonlord's skills, improves the effects on some, and makes Dragon Soul actually useful. By comparison, Baltael's Aventail doesn't seem like that effective of an artifact, it effects fewer skills, and it's almost purely damage.
DF AQW  Post #: 283
4/17/2018 18:57:51   
Greyor_42
Member

Well, considering that soul synch on MSW is ~10% stronger than soul synch on regular SW, 5 hits of 220% for a total of 1100% damage would make more sense.

quote:

And "Intended for both classes"? It does nothing for Master SoulWeaver, so I wouldn't say it was intended for both until that is resolved.


Pleas pay attention to the context in which I said that. That was in a hypothetical scenario in which it did work for MSW, which it really clearly is intended to do, since it's aesthetically designed for MSW.

quote:

By comparison, Baltael's Aventail doesn't seem like that effective of an artifact, it effects fewer skills, and it's almost purely damage.


Y'know, aside from the fact that it makes regular soulweaver, a tier-2 class, one of the strongest classes in the game, arguably moreso than RDL, a tier 3.........

Also, Baltael's Aventail's stats are just plain good. You don't need to be using soulweaver for the artifact to still be useful.


And yes, they are taking balancing into account. If you payed attention to what zeldax had said a while ago, that the main reason they didn't make it work for MSW yet is because they can't without making MSW too powerful, you'd have realized that already.

And with your dragonlord's rage example, it takes up the trinket slot, which means you can't use something like Elemental Unity, and the class is unable to use an extra trinket skill.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 4/17/2018 19:04:52 >
DF  Post #: 284
4/17/2018 19:02:23   
Zaleria
Member

Sorry, I didn't word that the way I intended. I meant "as it is, it does nothing for Master SoulWeaver".

I am not a fan of the stats on Baltail's Aventail, I generally prefer a more well-rounded gear setup, so having to choose between defense and offense kinda bothers me.

On the subject of trinket skills... most are not very good, the few that are, have poor stats. Elemental Unity XV is great as far as stats go, but 200% damage attack is "meh" in most circumstances, since you'll mostly want to be using your class skills instead, for either better damage, or an effect. And Dragonlord's skills are way better with Dragon's rage to the point that their free double-hit attack does the same damage as Elemental Unity, which costs 10 MP, and the stats on Dragon's Rage are not bad either.

< Message edited by Zaleria -- 4/17/2018 19:11:29 >
DF AQW  Post #: 285
4/17/2018 19:06:34   
Greyor_42
Member

That doesn't really change the issue with that statement, though. Because, again, I was talking about a hypothetical scenario in which you could say that it was indented for both classes based on your requirements.


And you don't really have to choose. The defensive one is widely agreed to just objectively be the best option out of all of them.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 4/17/2018 19:07:35 >
DF  Post #: 286
4/17/2018 19:07:28   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

It does nothing, for now, look The damage and defense increasing we are making to satisfy these two class, if the devs see this discussion we can have good chances at getting BMSW, soon than we think.
.
And Yes , Zaleria, The CC MSW, Will have it's Fur also CC
.
https://imgur.com/xRp2svu

< Message edited by Shadow X Ascendant -- 4/18/2018 12:54:28 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 287
4/17/2018 19:17:41   
Zaleria
Member

quote:

And Yes , Zaleria, The CC MSW, Will have it's Fur also CC


YAY~ That will be amazing.
DF AQW  Post #: 288
4/18/2018 12:45:19   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

See? Just in some hours of Discussion we made Baltael's Aventail work same for SW and MSW, and the devs are taking almost 4 years.
.
Valour Impact - Correct to 50% boost damage instead of 100% so BSW From 34% - 51% and MSW From 80%-120%.
.
Shield = 200% Avoidance for 3 turns with 7 Round cooldown
.
Full Sync = 1100% damage nuke with 8 Round cooldown.

< Message edited by Shadow X Ascendant -- 4/20/2018 17:45:45 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 289
4/20/2018 6:34:25   
BluuHorseOfficial
Member


 Aside from that, I guess to retain BSW’s value, we can, instead, buff most skills—so as to keep it a sustained damage class, still, unlike BSW which is a burst damage class which loses power over time.

Retribution (End/your foe’s end is nigh) could do 250% damage, enslave could make the foe damage themselves, concentration could give BtH and Crit, Soul Pierce could deal damage like one of Danyel’s moves, Banishment could go back to doing 400% damage like the good old days, and SoulSynch could be made into a Blood Rite clons with less damage and loss of health, and Soul Vaccuum could drain HP over time.

I guess Soul Burst could be a mini HACF over 10 turns? Deplete all opponent’s mana in 10 turns would be good. Repentance could go back to OPness and... Soul Slice could reduce defenses by -200 M/P/M or B/P/D at above 15% health...?
DF  Post #: 290
4/20/2018 17:44:06   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

But The Baltael's Aventail Description is very specific to which skills it boosts. And one thing more, what if the BA make MSW same as Danyel's MSW armor, design, battle position and walking shift ? Like This https://imgur.com/a/2GQCj


< Message edited by Shadow X Ascendant -- 4/20/2018 17:46:06 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 291
4/20/2018 17:59:04   
Greyor_42
Member

That would be a terrible idea. One of the biggest plus factors for MSW is that it's both powerful and cool looking. With that, it would take away the cool looking part. Also, that armor is unique to Danyel, and Dove would also have to design a new SpiritLoom/Aventail decoration for every element that has a design currently, since, if you recall, the wind looms on Danyel's armor are unique to that armor, as is the symbol on his Aventail.
DF  Post #: 292
4/21/2018 0:39:08   
Sakurai the Cursed
Member

quote:

I didn't say in needs to be a stronger buff. I said it needs to scale proportionately, that way BMSW would be to BSW what MSW is to SW, that way Baltail's Avventail would be a logical boost to both classes. Your solution is actually making it a weaker buff for MSW than it is for SW, which is an issue. With SW it more than doubles the damage. However, what is more than double damage for SW's Valor impact is barely more than a 50% increase for MSW. Why would an artifact meant equally for two classes support one so heavily more than the other? That simply makes no sense from a balancing standpoint.

Why? Saying that the boost MSW gets from Baltael must absolutely be proportional to the boost SW gets is incredibly silly, it has no basis on anything but subjective preference. As an example of a justification off the top of my head, MSW is already a Master of the craft and so it has less room to improve from the teachings or magical effects or whatever of Baltael. You could think of it as Baltael being a 10/10, MSW being a 7/10 and SW being a 5/10; SW gets a lot more benefit from using it because they have a lot more room to grow. That's just a random example thought up on the spot, but there are plenty of ways they could do it and to be honest I doubt that consideration is why it's taken so long. I do think that MSW should still be more powerful if both are using it of course, just less-so than non-Baltael SW vs MSW because as you say, if not then MSW is gonna be stepping into tier 4 territory.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 293
4/21/2018 2:21:40   
Ultima29
Member

DA testing could be a possibility. They could release it with some changes done and we can test the changes and see how close it gets to Tier 4 territory and make sure it doesn't pass into it. It can be tweaked over time by changing numbers over some extended testing period. If it becoming too close to tier 4 is a problem it's not one that is too hard to solve. We can work through it as a community. Some of you guys are really good with the numbers for stats and stuff for this game and that can be used to the staffs advantage.
Post #: 294
4/21/2018 23:07:29   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

I always Though The Wind Spirit-looms of Danyel and MSW were the same...
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 295
4/21/2018 23:55:34   
Greyor_42
Member

Hm. It seems I misremembered. Even so, using the armor Danytel wear takes away the "cool" factor of MSW's overcoat, as well as the uniqueness of it.
DF  Post #: 296
4/22/2018 0:08:47   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

Right so i think we're done satisfying BA for Both SW And MSW and it tooks just some hours
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 297
4/22/2018 0:29:23   
Kurtz96
Member

quote:

Hm. It seems I misremembered. Even so, using the armor Danytel wear takes away the "cool" factor of MSW's overcoat, as well as the uniqueness of it.


I think his armor looks cooler than the MSW armor we have :p

But I think Sakurai reasoning is sound and it would be fine. The staff could adjust some numbers to normalize BSW and then use those normalized numbers for MSW. Like how AQ Classic normalized Zealot's Wrath light weapon.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 298
4/22/2018 1:00:28   
Fire alandry
Member

BMSW could work with different effect, something that improve the class but not too much- the BA increases the number of hits for skills, but with the same total damage. For example, if Vaulor Impact is 3 hits of 50% now, it'll be 6 hits of 25%. Since weapons with On-hit special are common, it'll make MS more powerful but not T-4.
DF  Post #: 299
6/17/2018 4:08:07   
Shiny_Underpants
Member
 

 @Greyor
The wind looms are the same for Danyel as for Master Soulweaver. I'd love to see a reskin as an inn reward or some such in the future, but there's something of a shortage of artists already.

I thought perhaps Master Soulweaver's artifact should increase its defensive capabilities. It can already outstrip BSW in terms of damage; and in the case of MSW, the bonus damage from Soulsynch is actually about equal to using Soulsynch in the rotation, and all its defensive abilities are also offensive ones.
When I tried it against Yllmar, and it provided such impenetrable defenses that I never even needed to worry about the guests dying (which is the grand flaw in the BSW strategy I used). That said, MSW's stun has a much longer cooldown, so it's much slower, since Yllmar can heal more often, and timewise BSW was still better.

Even before Yllmar, I thought perhaps an artifact should increase the probability of stunning on Vacuum to 100%-- it's already possible to stun every time you use it given some luck (since even in a bossfight you'll likely use it a maximum of five times), and chance isn't great for planning. Dual stun classes aren't exactly unheard of.
In a similar vein, applying Concentration's effect to health as well as mana would be very significant.

Moving on to more convoluted ideas, perhaps longer effect times and longer cooldowns, to make up for stronger retribution or soulsynch skills-- giving Seal's debuff an effect lasting 7-10 turns, and cooldown of 15 (since it's a 200% damage skill, you lose 100% over the time it takes for regular Master Soulweaver to use it twice). Since the majority of MSW's damage comes from damage boosts to debuffing skills, you could easily account for something like added damage to Soulsynch. If the shield has even 1.5x duration and cooldown, that nerfs it since banish--soul aegis--seal--banish--vacuum provides such impenetrable defense. The extra shield time makes no difference, since banish has a cooldown the duration of the two-turn shield, while the added cooldown time outstrips the bonus turn from the shield.

MSW uses short cooldowns to its advantage, which I'm actually rather fond of, however it has no good mob clearing abilities, which makes it less fun to play.
It's not as though Master Soulweaver's baltaelsynch needs to be the full 1000%, either. 700% is enough for almost every mob, and it might be easier to balance. Especially if the damage is spread across soulsynch and retribution, with its longer cooldown (which would make most mobs a lot faster).

Alternately, a synchronized 'mode' might be cool, wherein activating Soulsynch engages the modified skills, or it works like SWoT's Umbral. However, unless the code can be somehow borrowed easily from SWoT, that's probably way overcomplicated. Certainly cosmetically, if we look like synchronized Tomix or use Soulblink as a run cycle, it'd be cool.
Post #: 300
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