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RE: Hatchling Rush

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12/8/2013 1:23:17   
ValkyrieKnight
Member

@ Mother

Then it should not effect generator or mark of blood, frenzy. As a high hp (all classes) I rely on mark of blood and frenzy but nope, with this skill they're impossible to use. With this skill so readily available those skills have become waste of space.

< Message edited by ValkyrieKnight -- 12/8/2013 1:24:15 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 101
12/8/2013 6:00:16   
King FrostLich
Member

Better way to balance it:


Old Hatchling Rush:

- Deals strike damage.
- Nerfs any healing effects by 50%


New Hatchling Rush

- Deals a flat 3 damage(can crit up to 10 damage)
- Nerfs Field Medic alone by 33%(other healing affects such as MoB and Generator are not affected by Hatchling Rush)
- Uses 20 energy up from 14.


This way, people won't combo it with small energy skills that lead to debuff or a field medic right after they use Hatchling Rush.
Epic  Post #: 102
12/8/2013 6:23:19   
axell5
Member

thats not balancing... thats nerfing it to the ground
AQ DF MQ Epic  Post #: 103
12/8/2013 6:38:35   
King FrostLich
Member

^ Balance doesn't necessarily mean buff or nerf exactly, it's meant to keep the game at a fair state even if that means completely nerfing it down and getting 50% healing nerf means a max field medic would only make you heal 30 hp which is less than a level 1 field medic. Balanced much? If I would own this weapon, I can use it to anyone at half their hp to only heal a very small amount of health and then do rage afterwards.
Epic  Post #: 104
12/8/2013 6:46:33   
Ranloth
Banned


 It's still overkill nerf. You're making it useful for one skill, bringing down the % by a fair amount and supposedly saying it's on par with Azrael's Will, in terms of power after your nerf is applied. Not only that, you're making it deal fixed 3 damage whilst Azrael's Will deals 85% damage to compensate for its effect.

The effect states that every skill that gives you HP back is affected, so removing that is changing the core's purpose completely. Essentially, it's false advertising as well when it comes to changing the core's purpose greatly. Energy cost is used to balance cores' power, but if you're paying for the effect only with this core (your suggestion), why are you putting it on par with Azrael's Will? That one deals a fair amount of damage and is unblockable, albeit deflectable.

Instead, you can keep it at blockable and perhaps 85% damage - to prevent Strength abusers from exploiting the core - and put the effect down from 50% to 25-30%, and keep the Energy cost as it is. Core remains useful, it deals less damage so the advantage given to offensive builds is smaller & Energy cost still makes it useable, and isn't too high to the point where it's difficult to time it properly; see Azrael's Will.
AQ Epic  Post #: 105
12/8/2013 6:46:41   
axell5
Member

well it's a counter to tank builds, do you want tank builds to ge even more nerf even after STR/support nerf?
AQ DF MQ Epic  Post #: 106
12/8/2013 7:07:05   
King FrostLich
Member

quote:

It's still overkill nerf. You're making it useful for one skill, bringing down the % by a fair amount and supposedly saying it's on par with Azrael's Will, in terms of power after your nerf is applied. Not only that, you're making it deal fixed 3 damage whilst Azrael's Will deals 85% damage to compensate for its effect.


Not sure how would it be on par with Azrael Will in terms of POWER Hatchling Rush lasts for 3 turns while Azrael Will only lasts for 1 turn, requiring more proper timing than Hatchling Rush does.

quote:


The effect states that every skill that gives you HP back is affected, so removing that is changing the core's purpose completely.



In a 2v2 match, 2 players can use it on each opponent when timed right and when used by a class with a debuffing skill such as smokescreen or malfunction, the effect is devastating already even when not timed right, two players can pile on one player quickly. In certain situations in 1v1, if used by a bounty hunter, they'll use it when the opponent has nearly no skill to use upon static grenade or when they know they'll be desperate for field medic in a few turns. For other classes, it's only used when they know their rage meter just needs 1 turn left or to use a powerful skill next turn to prevent field medic from negating its damage effectively. This is also used for strength users better than focus builds for damage purposes.


quote:

Core remains useful, it deals less damage so the advantage given to offensive builds is smaller & Energy cost still makes it useable,


The core IS NOT MEANT as a damage-type core, it's mainly used as a heal crippler when opponents anticipate the need of field medic or generator including the use of Mark of Blood.


quote:

but if you're paying for the effect only with this core


Isn't this game highly reliant with cores? If all weapons have equal power yet no cores available(should the game have no cores at all since Omega started) I can use any weapon that are cheap and ugly-looking and defeat players with the same win rate. Plus, this is one proof why the Azrael promo was mostly favored than the Arborgeddon promo because of its strong and game-changing cores at that time even when the energy cost for cores came along, it's still more favorable than any other promo next to the Frost Weapon cores(now less dominant with the introduction of the Frost Shards core)
Epic  Post #: 107
12/8/2013 11:07:26   
Altador987
Member

@king so it'd be more like the poison bot skill right? i think it's a possible solution but i'd keep the mp cost the same seeing the damage and affects would be nerfed
AQW Epic  Post #: 108
12/8/2013 23:47:56   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator
quote:

ever been in a situation where you are barely doing any damage, due to a super tank build, and by the time you finally get some decent damage they heal it away leaving them unharmed while the majority of your resources are gone?


There's something very wrong with the build if this is happening, especially with the elimination of passive armors. Also EP drains already are enough to stop field medics, so I don't see why this core's effect has to be so severe.
Epic  Post #: 109
12/9/2013 8:48:41   
Remorse
Member

I completely agree with king,


Just because the skill starts extremely overpowered doesn't mean it shouldn't get any less of a nerf to bring it to standard like king said.


Well said king you read my mind on this topic.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 12/9/2013 8:49:11 >
Epic  Post #: 110
12/9/2013 17:04:06   
lionblades
Member

quote:

It's still overkill nerf.

I agree with Trans.
quote:

New Hatchling Rush

- Deals a flat 3 damage(can crit up to 10 damage) Not supported. It is blockable and one time use unlike poison bot. At most it should be 85% if worried about str abusers

- Nerfs Field Medic alone by 33%(other healing affects such as MoB and Generator are not affected by Hatchling Rush) Partially supported. Still 50% for heal, but all other heals should be unaffected. So for 3 turns, Generator, MoB, frenzy etc. can still be good counters

- Uses 20 energy up from 14. Not supported. Maybe when energy drains are balanced (compare Parasite & BH new EMP). This only makes classes with the best energy regen and steals more beneficial if this core has energy cost increased even more.


Bolded my thoughts.
AQW  Post #: 111
12/10/2013 0:08:10   
dfo99
Member
 

 this skill not is op
Post #: 112
12/10/2013 2:55:20   
Ranloth
Banned


 How so? Explain why you believe so, because saying "it is OP" or "it is not OP" doesn't help balance, at all.
AQ Epic  Post #: 113
12/10/2013 4:56:28   
edwardvulture
Member

Hatchling Rush isn't really overpowerd if you learn to anticipate it just like Azrael's Will.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 114
12/10/2013 6:09:10   
DarkDevil
Member

what is to anticipate it .
prevent my hp from ever going to 50% so it won't be abused on me ?

azreal will is only 85% dmg and is also balanced by its cost , also it doesn't decrease enemy damage.

for this core to maintain its power its cost will have to be duplicated and its damage reduced to 85%.
even tho being balanced by its cost is not universally known among cores since the only example is azreals.
AQ Epic  Post #: 115
12/10/2013 6:28:31   
Ranloth
Banned


 Well, if you want, we can bump its cost to 20 EP, so it will be harder to use. Would that be good enough for you? Apart from depleting a lot of Energy and being unusable by a fair amount of classes and builds, due to the cost and being more difficult to use - easier to counter with Energy draining.

That's why players want damage reduction - since it deal 100% damage right now, although, blockable - and effect reduction to a reasonable amount, and keeping the cost roughly the same. It'd still retain its purpose, still be powerful if timed properly, affordable, and most importantly, balanced.
AQ Epic  Post #: 116
12/10/2013 7:09:12   
Remorse
Member

It needs to be nerfed to the ground,

So it becomes a situational weapon as in if your build is particularly weak against loopers then you would use this item otherwise it should not be useful.


This is the sort of level it should of started at.


Making cores useful for all builds is what is RUINING THE GAME.
Epic  Post #: 117
12/10/2013 7:12:01   
Ranloth
Banned
quote:

Making cores useful for all builds is what is RUINING THE GAME.

I'd strongly argue with that. Making cores useful for everyone, is a big benefit. We have way too many Strength-dependant cores, for damage, and other builds have no use for these. Likewise with Aux cores - if you have little to no Support invested, thus dealing much less damage.

I'm not gonna pick up on other points, because we clearly have different views on these and there's no point in discussing something, if our view will remain the same. ^^
AQ Epic  Post #: 118
12/10/2013 7:27:28   
Remorse
Member

Situational is what creates variety in all games!


Watch these two videos to see what I mean trans
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/perfect-imbalance


If every core is situational then it will be much balanced.


People need to stop getting sucked into liking powerful things watch the first video to understand what I mean.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 12/10/2013 7:37:38 >
Epic  Post #: 119
12/10/2013 7:40:00   
Ranloth
Banned


 Of course, some cores will be more useful for some builds than others, but they should roughly be equal for all. Glass Cannon won't really take advantage of Piston Punch or Generator due to the small regeneration and poor defenses, so it'd be a loss for them. But they shouldn't be designed for a specific build, such as Strength or Support abuser, and so on. Good example of that? Piston Punch and Generator - why so? They scale with your Def and Res, which everyone gets at an equal rate. It then depends whether your build can find it useful or not, instead of being designed for your build.
AQ Epic  Post #: 120
12/10/2013 7:51:33   
Remorse
Member

^ I never meant cores should be designed for better builds they just need to be better for some and less to others.


When they release cores that every single build benefits dramatically from it is clearly broken and ruins variety.


EG. I really wish I could use say the piston punch skill core but hatch-ling rush is so OP it is useless to think of anything else.


This is what power creep is and is why it is ruining the game.
Epic  Post #: 121
12/10/2013 8:03:36   
Ranloth
Banned


 Ah, misunderstanding on my side then.
AQ Epic  Post #: 122
12/12/2013 0:02:06   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator
quote:

Hatchling Rush isn't really overpowerd if you learn to anticipate it just like Azrael's Will.


Because it lasts so long it really can't be countered even if it is anticipated unless you want to waste almost 1/3 of your field medic, which is close enough to that 1/2 penalty hatchling rush has anyways.
Epic  Post #: 123
12/12/2013 0:26:15   
Dual Thrusters
Member

The thing I hate is when players combine the bot with the weapon, and make it impossible for tanks to exist ;_;
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 124
12/12/2013 0:33:36   
Remorse
Member

Exactly one of my points, variety contricting cores are ruining the game.

They should be introducing cores and bots that encourage variety not ruin it.
The whole black abyss item set is a disaster like I warned them not to do.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 12/12/2013 0:35:30 >
Epic  Post #: 125
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