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Stunning at lower levels + Support's effect on Stunning

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2/4/2014 2:01:42   
noremako
Member

Stuns at low levels are stupid. When there is no strategy at low levels it almost guarantees that two evenly matched players (players who use dex, tech, str, not support) will lose if one person starts first. It certainly guarantees that if a player loses a turn to stunning they lose in general.

Now, the solution would be to stockpile on Support, obviously. Stunning, is, of course, a counterable novelty. Except it isn't. I am rocking Support build on my fresh Merc alt and at level 11, with 47 support, I am getting stunned over 30% of the time. This is probably luck since the game mechanisms wouldn't allow this but Support clearly isn't helping at lower levels. Even at level 30, I remember a 130 support Merc being stunned (by me) 2 times in a row. I fought him again and I stunned him 2 out of 2 times in that round as well. The third fight was yet another stun. This is probably the most stuns in a row delivered to a support Merc, but my point is that Support should have a larger effect on Stuns.

At low levels, I really think stunning should be reduced. At higher levels, when stunning is a nuisance, the 30% is adequate. At low levels, where stun means certain death, stunning is no longer an adequate chance. At level 20 and below I think stun chance should be 20% or lower. This applies to victims of stunning, so if a level 23 used Overload on a level 20 it would be a 20% chance of stun. Or, to be more balanced, stun would scale from 20% at level 1, and at level 2 increase to 21%, and every 2 levels after increase by 1%. This is a small change but certainly an important need. Scaling stuns would not be affected i.e. Maul.
Post #: 1
2/4/2014 2:09:38   
s0u1ja b0y
Member

Your supposed to get stunned 30% of the time. Clearly says that on stun skills. People don't block and have 70+ Dex. Oh well that's just the lway it goes. You're just suggesting for yourself without offering anything to replace it. You do realize that stun is what keeps tms from being trash at low lvls and bhs from being merc punching bags.
Epic  Post #: 2
2/4/2014 3:14:56   
Ranloth
Banned


 There's already a thread on it, located here: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21581217
AQ Epic  Post #: 3
2/4/2014 4:06:03   
noremako
Member

quote:

S0u1ja b0y:

You do realise that stun is what keeps tms from being trash at low lvls and bhs from being merc punching bags.


Rather the opposite. Stun is increasing TM's to win by essentially 30%+ from lower levels. Stun is the flag on the iceberg. TM's already rack out consecutive numbers of 200-300 and can easily KO in 3-4 short rounds. With BATTERY BACKUP it becomes a certified win if the game lasts until the enemy runs out of Energy. Cheap Damage AND Stunning is overpowered at low levels. It isn't a question. Overload is cheap, early on the tree and powerful. Mercs can Bunker, wait 2 rounds, Bunker again but if they get stunned, they lose yet another round, while TM's do not and can spam multiple skills. BH builds vary between Stun + Multi builds and Smoke + MoB builds. Both are excessively powerful because they deal consistent damage and are reliable enough to tank while dealing damage. Stun Grenade is not overpowered in terms of damage (compared to TM's) but Stunning makes it so while Smoke and MoB tears through the average Dex and ridiculous amounts of HP flow in. Keep in mind this is at low levels.

Thanks Trans, I didn't realise there was another forum about the same matter. I hope my suggestion for changing Stun chance at low levels would have some effect though. Maul simply isn't the same as the other Stuns, in low levels, for damage, reliability and Stun chance.

< Message edited by noremako -- 2/4/2014 4:08:52 >
Post #: 4
2/4/2014 4:28:13   
Ranloth
Banned


 ND Mallet covers the issue pretty well, with saying it should rely on level (chances to stun), so it'd be more/less effective at x level, than at y level - just like you've mentioned.

At the same time, "you cannot block whilst stunned" should leave as well - since it's prone to abuse, especially from Mercenaries which are dependant on blockable attacks (Maul + Zerker is a good ol' build which works well).

Or perhaps lower the chance to stun (level scaled), and give all stun skills a secondary effect - if it doesn't stun, you daze the opponent and lower their damage (all, but healing) by 10-20% for the next turn - which could scale with skill's level, so the higher it is, the bigger the effect will be, and you wouldn't necessarily have to attack; if you heal, the effect will fade and it's done absolutely nothing. Of course, the effect would not be guaranteed for the said effect - it could improve with Support; starts at 50/50 and then takes your and opponent's Support, and increases/decreases the odds of it.

At least this would decrease their raw power. Perhaps not to an ideal level, but significantly better. We should start opting out for a bit more creative concept too, even if it's basic.

< Message edited by Trans -- 2/4/2014 4:29:56 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 5
2/4/2014 5:08:38   
noremako
Member

Secondary effects are for if the whole game gets revamped just like in Xendran's remake.

The game currently is probably too simple, not a lot of variety in terms of not ways of damaging but what can occur in a battle. Random luck isn't a complex thing, its to drive attention away from the fact that all skills do damage, reduce damage, and do nothing else. It would be a lot harder to negate plans, as in 15 seconds its hard to process multiple functions in gear, but since the only way to break plans as of now is to use energy drainers, it is a definite improvement over the status quo.

The secondary effects for stunning are unnecessary, though. You are suggesting that stun skills should be a 100% chance ability to at least disable the enemy while dealing high damage. The stun was meant to be a bonus, not a killer. Secondary effects with a full bonus chance is just an overpowering icing on the cake.

On a side note, Maul + Berzerker is NOT an OP build. At levels 30-40 Maul and Berzerker have some use, but Berzerker is too energy consuming to be used well in lasting battles. It doesn't have the efficiency of Bludgeon nor it availability. At levels 20-30 Berzerker and Maul are destroyed by Dex mages as well as high Res and Def levels. At levels 1-20 there is simply no weapon strong enough to make percentage skills deal the damage of unblockables, nor match their lower energy cost (for Berzerker), nor have any use for 20% ignore when most Def and Res are below 200.
Post #: 6
2/4/2014 7:10:26   
Ranloth
Banned


 Stuns can be penalized in many ways, to compensate for their effects. After all, their main aim is the effect and lower damage - compared to pure damaging skills. I'm just throwing the concept around, not including any other numbers, merely examples, so let's not assume I want to give it bonus effect and retain its damage.

I'm not saying Maul + Zerker is overpowered build, mind you. All I'm saying is that once you're stunned, melee attacks are unblockable, so Maul (if stuns) followed by Zerker (unblockable if stunned), can be powerful. I've linked it to the whole concept of "you cannot block if stunned", hence why I've given an example of my daze effect & making attack blockable if you're stunned.
AQ Epic  Post #: 7
2/4/2014 21:04:18   
s0u1ja b0y
Member

What's really the difference between 20% and 30%( other than they're obviously different numbers)? 25% is 1 out of 4, 30% is 1.02 out of 4( if I did math right) and 20% is .8 out of 4. When you take into account support having effect and lack of support use, bow much of difference is really made?
Epic  Post #: 8
2/5/2014 5:43:46   
Ranloth
Banned
quote:

When you take into account support having effect and lack of support use, bow much of difference is really made?

Still 10%... That support difference is also applied right now, so the 10% would have an impact on them as well. The difference is always 10% across the board - even for those with and without Support. Did you really ask this question? Everyone would get affected by it...
AQ Epic  Post #: 9
2/5/2014 5:58:45   
noremako
Member

30% is 1.2 out of 4. But that is trivial, mind you.

The point is not really to negate stunning. The concept of the skills would then be inert.

A small tone down is just to reduce the impact of stunning. The moment you are hoping to not be stunned to win is the moment when stunning is too drastic. Even a small change is vastly effective and can change builds as well as multiple other factors. Toning down the chance really just lets you worry that little bit less of that stun to come.
Post #: 10
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