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2/5/2014 15:49:40   
Ranloth
Banned


 Since it's quite a popular topic, why the hell not?

  • [TM] Remove Staff requirement from Assimilation, add Support requirement (for up to +35 Support at Lvl 10), and deals 80% damage.
    • Tech Casters need Staves for Plasma Bolt and Super Charge. Dex Casters need Staves for Overload, but not Plasma Rain. Str/Supp rely on debuffs and damage from weapons, therefore Caster skills are useless.
    • Removal of requirement means loss of power, perhaps by around 15-20% (i.e. from -100 EP drain to -80/-85 EP drain) + return would also be indirectly nerfed (dependant on the drain).
    • Deals with Casters abusing the move, yet makes it available for everyone.
    • Support requirement prevents Casters from maxing out the move (with +20'ish Strength), and Strength abusers who forgo Support will also need to invest in it.


    < Message edited by Trans -- 2/7/2014 7:31:53 >
    • AQ Epic  Post #: 1
    2/5/2014 16:06:32   
    DarkDevil
    Member

    		a mage will use malfunction which recommend supp.

    any mage with a sword will have 42 supp.

    this is just a ban-aid fix for the current mages and str problem but it doesn't fix anything , only weakens or destroys caster builds.
    limiting diversity among mages so , not supported.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 2
    2/5/2014 16:07:41   
    ambien
    Member

    		if the sword for the prime weapon was able to be used for the skill assimilation , you could not cast bolt or overload. some caster use assimilation with bolt and overload and maulf in their build along with super charge. so changing staff to sword to use assimilation would be a waste of time .


    l think.

    < Message edited by ambien -- 2/5/2014 20:26:19 >
    Post #: 3
    2/5/2014 16:09:48   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 Constructive feedback would be helpful. You've told me nothing, ambien, in regards to what is wrong and why it wouldn't work.

    @DarkDevil
    Prior to your post, I've lowered the requirement slightly, so it's more 'friendly'.

    I mean, lowering the drain + requirement affects Casters, but requirement isn't as restrictive. If it started at +17 Support and scale +2 per level, you could have Lvl 5 Assimilation with only +25 Support required. Strength builds would get lower damage (75%) and some Support would have to be invested as well, but still, not as much. Making it useable with Swords gives some builds more freedom.

    But yes, it's a band-aid until better solution is found. I think it could work for a skill at least, unlike using band-aid fixes for bigger things - such as fixing blocks or crits, which hasn't worked that well thus far.

    < Message edited by Trans -- 2/5/2014 16:19:09 >
    AQ Epic  Post #: 4
    2/5/2014 16:11:23   
    DarkDevil
    Member

    		supported or not supported isn't enough , we aren't collecting votes , we are collecting logical feedback for staff.

    forum community is less than 10% of the players.

    < Message edited by DarkDevil -- 2/6/2014 5:03:39 >
    AQ Epic  Post #: 5
    2/5/2014 17:21:58   
    Mother1
    Member

    		@ Ambien

    actually this idea weakens the move for all builds and makes it less effective for all of them not just caster.

    This makes the move and the drain less effective for Strength TM, tones down caster TM (both dex and tech) since they would need to give up something in return for using the move viva requirement, and makes the energy drain/gain smaller as well.

    This won't just affect strength TM like your suggestion mentioned by removing the damage part of the drain only.
    Epic  Post #: 6
    2/5/2014 19:50:27   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 Sorry, ambien, but your post makes no sense or whatsoever. I've called them Tech Casters and Dex Casters only to distinguish between the two builds, nothing else. I genuinely don't see what you're trying to say, in your post, apart from saying how categorizing these two builds in the way I've done is - supposedly - incorrect...

    Can you provide some ACTUAL feedback to the suggestion, not point out what one build means and what it doesn't? I'm not expecting much from people, but I'd have assumed you do know what a Dex Mage and Tech Mage is, in terms of builds.

    quote:

    if the sword for the prime weapon was able to be used for the skill assimilation , you could not cast bolt or overload. some caster use assimilation with bolt and overload and maulf in their build along with super charge. so changing staff to sword to use assimilation would be a waste of time .

    Can you read the post carefully? It clearly says REMOVING the Staff requirement, not changing it to Sword - in other words, EVERYONE can use it, those with Swords and Staves! I've tried to keep it VERY simple, instead of dumping a paragraph worth of explanation...

    < Message edited by Trans -- 2/6/2014 7:45:24 >
    AQ Epic  Post #: 7
    2/6/2014 8:52:38   
    DeathGuard
    Member

    		Preventing max assimilation on Caster TMs seems like a nice solution to the drain and recover "synergy", plus it weakens the drain's potential which was quite high. Restricting not only Casters but Strength tms is a good solution for the meanwhile. Taking in consideration that it won't require any weapon, it had be helpful for builds with swords.
    AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 8
    2/6/2014 22:19:17   
    dfo99
    Member
     
    quote:

    Removal of requirement means loss of power


    not exactly, frenzy lose the club requirement, not lose power and gain 10% of ignore of defenses, so lost the staff req and receive a suport req don't means that need lose power
    Post #: 9
    2/6/2014 23:08:04   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 ...There's a difference between underpowered skill and balanced. It lost requirement + had defense ignore added because it was underpowered. The concept of weapon requirements results in power loss/gain - example: Overlord vs. Stun Grenade. You've given a very bad example right here.

    Using an opinion to argue a fact doesn't work. Double check the facts next time, so you won't get it wrong.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 10
    2/6/2014 23:16:37   
      Exploding Penguin
    Moderator


    		 The problem I do see with your suggestion is that I actually prefer to run support over strength on any caster build I made in the past and I made recently. It protects you from crits and helps you stall/wall much better. While your consistent damage output is not nearly as good and your assim is weaker, you will most likely go first given the lack of support in most builds these days, have a stronger defense matrix, and a decently powerful aux capable of hitting hard if used on rage. The support requirement would definitely limit usage for strength builds, but then everyone'd just switch to high-field medic heal-loop focus. At this point it's mixed possible results; it could become really popular, it could become very unpopular because it actually requires some intellect to use and people would class jump to find a new build in a frenzy, or a little bit of both.
    Epic  Post #: 11
    2/6/2014 23:23:00   
    dfo99
    Member
     

    		 but in you suggest you say also to add the suport requirement, so not is only a loss of staff, use this argument to make any skill lose power looks non sense
    Post #: 12
    2/6/2014 23:26:18   
      Exploding Penguin
    Moderator


    		 Forgot to also mention that since your suggestion says that swords will also be included in the skill's usage, that'll just support the creation of high-field medic focus heal loopers even more. Not saying this is a bad thing, but the synergy setup of assim really is pointing in that direction if this suggestion gets implemented. And I would prefer more build variety. Focus builds are better than what's right now, though.
    Epic  Post #: 13
    2/6/2014 23:27:28   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 Well, ideally, I would remove the skill completely and put in something new, but we both know I don't have such power. :3

    Although, isn't popularity irrelevant to balance? After being around for years, people have always abused the easy builds due to fast wins with little effort. Mercenaries were underpowered for... way too long, but some people could use them and win. People just love easy and fast builds, as long as it gives them wins. If they need to use their brain, they flock to another class which has simple yet effective build(s). TMs are one, and BHs have almost always been one of them - but managed to stay almost perfectly balanced throughout most of the phases.
    But the point is, popularity has nothing to do with balance - unless one assumes overused = overpowered, which is also completely wrong; there's been a lot of these posts in the past.

    The requirement isn't necessary, not as much, but when you see people with base Strength/Support, and max Assimilation, there's only one thing that comes to mind (in terms of requirements). Requirements are restrictive, but taking advantage of a skill without putting much effort in and making it seem imbalanced, isn't good either. Not a perfect solution, but could work for now.

    @dfo
    quote:

    use this argument to make any skill lose power looks non sense

    Instead of fighting with an opinion, brings some facts out to back it up with. Skills without weapon requirements ARE weaker, than as if they were to have one. I've given you one example of that. Another one could be Plasma Rain vs. Overload - even though Overload has an effect, it's still stronger than Plasma Rain - if used on one target.

    Your argument here is, that my logic - which is actually a fact - is wrong because Frenzy ignored the rule, and you're trying to use underpowered skill - which needed a buff, no matter in what shape or form - to diminish the rule, to the point where it's gonna be just a rumour made by Forumites.

    < Message edited by Trans -- 2/6/2014 23:32:33 >
    AQ Epic  Post #: 14
    2/6/2014 23:42:05   
      Exploding Penguin
    Moderator


    		 popularity does not actually have much to do with balance from one viewpoint, but the way I see it is that popularity leads to unreasonable complaints in large numbers on the forums. This leads to unreasonable and unnecessary nerfing. And that's the connection to balance. Aside from that, no, popularity does not have anything to do with the current balance at the time, but does influence it in the near future. OP builds are the ones that attain the highest win rate, even at the slowest win speed. OP builds are not builds that are easy to use, have a good win speed, and a good (but not ridiculous or best) win rate; those are popular builds which typically lead to nerfing on the forums.
    Epic  Post #: 15
    2/6/2014 23:58:04   
    dfo99
    Member
     

    		 my argument here is that you logic is wrong because you not wanna only the staff (main weapon) req removed, you also wanna add a suport req and loss of power. the frenzy example was only to show a demonstration that not is all times that a skill lose the weapon req and result in loss of power.

    i agree you suggest to nerf the assimilation, but you logic to do it not looks fair.

    (i particulary prefer a buff in all others classes to prevent a overnerf in one classe, but this never happens)
    Post #: 16
    2/7/2014 0:32:48   
      Exploding Penguin
    Moderator


    		 Well, the damage nerf of 10% isn't as bad as it seems given swords do 10 more damage. Still 10% is pretty significant, so I'll have to agree with dfo99. If 15% makes a strike which does 200-250 damage deal 75-ish, then another 10% will make it essentially useless except for hitting 30s unless you rage. Maybe make it 80% will be good enough, or lower the base by like 10 at all levels and leave damage alone.
    Epic  Post #: 17
    2/7/2014 6:34:20   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 No, dfo, YOUR logic is flawed because you're using an example of an already underpowered skill which needed ANY form of a buff, to a balanced skill. This logic ONLY applies to balanced and overpowered skills, not underpowered. If you have nothing else to say, apart from arguing about your logic, don't bother posting, because it's unnecessary; doesn't bring anything to the actual suggestion nor helps it in any way. Don't argue facts with opinions.

    Damage nerf is mostly aimed at Strength builds. Casters are already garbage with it, dealing 30 damage. Perhaps buffing it to 80% won't be that bad of an idea.

    Going back to popularity, that's why I'm suggesting a nerf-buff, instead of overshotting it. Every build will lose on it, and some more than the other, but I don't want it to have damage or EP return removed completely - like some others want. THAT would be nerfing it to oblivion.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 18
    2/8/2014 1:13:42   
    edwardvulture
    Member

    		I'd rather give every other class another energy skill lol...
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 19
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