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Why we need more 0 energy skills

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2/10/2014 11:47:07   
edwardvulture
Member

1. so people actually use skills
2. more build diversity
3. longer battles cpi;d be more interesting.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 1
2/10/2014 11:52:20   
Mother1
Member

It is also the reason why certain things that people hate are also happening.

One good example of this is heal looping Tank TM. Battery backup and Assimilation both don't have a cost and with these two skills together and energy time TM will heal loop you to death.

While somethings would be better if there were more 0 costing skills OP combos such as this depending on class would also be born of this which is a horrid thing.

What needs to happen is there needs to be a way to remove the over stress on energy that the energy costing cores and the passive to active change has brought.
Epic  Post #: 2
2/10/2014 11:53:37   
Ranloth
Banned


 It doesn't promote diversity though. It makes these skills almost a must, because you can spam them for free. In longer battles, yes, it may be more interesting, but making them free is essentially like having passives back - in the way that they are must-have skills in a build, because it's free so why not?

The only benefit is, it puts less stress on Energy - which is an important resource right now.

Unless, you put in some fancy requirement, to prevent abuse - such as requiring % of HP to cast the skill (if under, skill is unavailable), or having some sort of drawback on the player, etc. But otherwise, 0 EP skills are almost a must in any build, as I've already said, and this wouldn't promote diveristy.
AQ Epic  Post #: 3
2/10/2014 20:09:13   
edwardvulture
Member

ex. nerf blood scythe percentages and let it be castable with 0 energy and buff plasma bolt
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 4
2/12/2014 7:38:24   
Remorse
Member

Completely disagree,


I agree with trans the only small benefit is the less constraint on energy which can be made up for a new costing system such as stamina.


Skills that cost nothing massively increase abuse, reduce strategy decisions and make games boring and effortless.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/12/2014 7:40:05 >
Epic  Post #: 5
2/12/2014 23:23:15   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 I disagree almost entirely.

Blood scythe with 0 energy is essentially just a meteor shower that penetrates defense instead of dealing additional damage before the energy cost addition to cores. Bludgeon'd be inferior once this effect takes place. Atom smash's drawback is that it can be blocked and doesn't do damage (hence doesn't give rage). Same with static grenade because it also doesn't do damage. Assimilation gives reduced rage and deals reduced damage while not draining strong amounts compared to most other EP drains. Battery backup takes an entire turn to cast. Energy parasite hits pathetically low amounts. So why would you make a skill have no drawbacks and literally be spammed every time it comes out of cooldown?

Should make more skills cost energy and take energy cost off of cores instead. Taking energy cost away from cores would make them more flexible with builds, but some nerfing to certain cores would need to take place before they become free-cost. Making more skills cost EP/eliminating 0-EP cost skills would make energy a much more valuable resource, and people will think twice before consuming it knowing that they can just use battery in the future.
Epic  Post #: 6
2/12/2014 23:38:03   
Remorse
Member

^ I agree,


Cores are limited unfairly to a worse degree then skills because they can only be used once.



However Cores are essentially better versions of the main "free attacks" which are basically striking, aux, gun and robots.

And therefore they should be given a cost to make these skills have a opportunity cost to simply using the free attacks, otherwise cores will become the same issue as free costing skills now where they become clear stronger options over other options limiting strategy, even if they are only limited to one use.



I would prefer if they gave cores a stamina cost and then make cores, like skill usable infinitely amount of times when not on CD.


What this will essentially do is greatly improve strategy required as everything will have an opportunity cost, Do I use a stronger skill and burn energy, do I use a stronger core and burn stamina, or do I use a free attack and save the energy and stamina for later turns.


What essentially should happen is no attack should have the right to be outright better then an alternative everything should have an opportunity cost.



Plus making cores useable more then once but giving them a cost will also improve complexity and enjoyment in battles.


@ Mother1,

quote:

What needs to happen is there needs to be a way to remove the over stress on energy that the energy costing cores and the passive to active change has brought.

My stamina idea does EXACTLY that.


Also remember their is extra stress on energy not only because of cores costing energy but because free costing drains are far superior and have basically no downside making them spam-able, this issues is also fixed by my stamina idea, for example mages may consider using an alternative to assimilation or battery when they are off cool downs, as the battle progresses, as the stamina constraints may be high for one or because they are saving the stamina of one or the other/ a core.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/12/2014 23:52:35 >
Epic  Post #: 7
2/13/2014 2:43:52   
edwardvulture
Member

Give all 0 energy skills a chance of failure.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 8
2/13/2014 7:23:40   
Remorse
Member

^ More luck in an already overly luck and circumstance based game?
No thanks!
Epic  Post #: 9
2/13/2014 9:51:55   
edwardvulture
Member

Would luck really increase from giving 0 energy skills a failure rate? Or would it make you strategize even more and plan out energy usage accordingly.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 10
2/13/2014 9:59:06   
Ranloth
Banned


 If you need luck to balance something, there's an issue already. Probability can balance skills (blockable vs. unblockable), but using probability just to balance it does prove there's something wrong.

Instead of "failure", you can change it to "drawback" and penalize the caster, but not make the effect backfire on him and deal no damage/effect/whatever.
AQ Epic  Post #: 11
2/13/2014 20:49:31   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 There's a difference between a 10% block chance which can be avoided via using ranged weapons/unblockables and a 50/50 0-cost skill success. It's already a punishment enough that you don't gain rage from using skills like static grenade, but now you want to add what would literally be a coin toss every 3-5 turns in a fight.
Epic  Post #: 12
2/13/2014 21:46:55   
edwardvulture
Member

Did I ever say what the %'s of failure would be based on?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 13
2/13/2014 21:53:22   
Mother1
Member

@ Edwardvulture

even a 1% for failure on a 0 energy costing move would be leaving any tactical decision up to change which in my book is unacceptable since we already have enough luck based things from Blocks, crits, stuns, and deflections, to the Dreaded Random Number Generator.
Epic  Post #: 14
2/13/2014 22:50:54   
Remorse
Member

quote:

Or would it make you strategize even more and plan out energy usage accordingly


No, It won't.

Adding luck based factors to free costing skills is a horrible band-aid fix to trying to lower the power of something, which would actually worsen the problem of luck in the game.


Luck is anti strategy in some cases, planning for luck is fine and arguably strategic but having your strategy shut down by luck is game breaking WHEN it becomes over the top, and adding more luck factors would make it over the top.



To fix the problem of free costing skills being abuseable and un-balanced, simple , give them a cost!

And if it can't logically be EP, this it could be hp, rage, defenses (for a duration), weapon damage (for a duration) or a brand new cost system such as my stamina idea.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 2/13/2014 22:51:52 >
Epic  Post #: 15
2/14/2014 0:12:09   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator
quote:

Did I ever say what the %'s of failure would be based on?


No, you didn't. But it doesn't matter because my point was we really don't need more essential skills/attacks to have luck factors. You won't believe how my win ratio's lowered due to ninja reflexes doubling people's block chances against me (my decent dex normally gives them a 4-6% block chance, and ninja reflexes doubles this at best, and increases by 50% at worst using example numbers).

This is a competitive game. Win ratios should almost entirely reflect one's skill in the game. Making, for example, static grenade succeed with 95% chance or fire scythe may not seem like much but can bring down win rates a solid 1%. 1% also doesn't seem like much but in the competitive gaming universe it is a big thing.

Basically, I don't think it's a good idea to leave more things up to the RNG. There's already quite a few things that really tips the game in favor of one player if it just by chance happens that 5% of the time.
Epic  Post #: 16
2/14/2014 15:01:10   
edwardvulture
Member

Whoever said these 0 energy skills I'm theorizing is essential. They will be like a choice between debuffing a debuff with assault bot or putting a shield.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 17
2/14/2014 21:51:03   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 Using logic, 0 energy skills will either not be used at all or be essential. I'd love to see you prove me wrong, but a 0 energy skill that isn't a clone of another existing skill that's reusable really has to be either useless or essential. There's a very complex explanation that I'm too lazy to give right now, but if you think about it, then it's fairly true. But I could be wrong, and I'd be convinced if you can provide an example of a new skill suggestion or something that's 0 energy, not RNG-based, and not essential or useless.
Epic  Post #: 18
2/14/2014 23:30:44   
edwardvulture
Member

I would consider strike, gun, and aux all examples of essential moves.
Remove the energy cost of shadow arts. It wouldn't make it overpowered or anything.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 19
2/14/2014 23:47:23   
Mother1
Member

@ edwardvulture

All classes have these warrant they have a gun and aux equipped, and none of these are part of the skill trees.

Also the moment you remove the energy cost from shadow arts will be the moments this move would get spammed just like all energy drainer and gainers.

Also if I remember correctly Shadow arts can not only weaken all incoming attacks, but also slows down rage. this would make Tank hunters overpowered since they would be able to spam this move if the energy cost was removed.
Epic  Post #: 20
2/15/2014 0:28:08   
edwardvulture
Member

how does shadow arts decrease rage gain? It says lower % of all damage for 3 turns and it maxes out at 28%.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 21
2/15/2014 12:08:13   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 ^I actually don't know how it affects rage. It doesn't influence your defense/resistance, so I'm supposing that it doesn't make you "tankier", thus causing the opponent to gain more rage. Doesn't necessarily mean they get less rage.
Epic  Post #: 22
2/15/2014 14:59:55   
Drianx
Member

quote:

Give all 0 energy skills a chance of failure.

I'd be fine with giving all 0 energy skills higher stat requirements.
AQW Epic  Post #: 23
2/15/2014 19:23:17   
edwardvulture
Member

another skill that can possible become a 0 energy skill is blood scythe. If we made the chance to make it deflectable based on support or the % of defense it ignores based on a different stat,, that would add a new demension of gameplay.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 24
2/15/2014 19:30:43   
Mother1
Member

@ Edwardvulture

or give TM another move that give them even better energy control since they will now 1/4 of their skill tree having no energy cost. TM already has 2 moves that don't cost anything being Battery back up and Assimilation due to those being energy gain moves.

This would give all those strength TM's another move to abuse whenever it is off of cooldown.
Epic  Post #: 25
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