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3/13/2014 9:51:41   
dfo99
Member
 

but i never say anytime that you consider the energy parasite a perfect skill, u have said that the damage is too little, however you seems consider the suport requeriment needed and the energy drained/gainded good right?
Post #: 26
3/13/2014 10:01:04   
Ranloth
Banned


If you read carefully, I'm for raising the damage to at least 85% and lowering the requirement, for up to 34 Support at L10, down from 42. If it then needs another buff, players would judge whether it's the damage which needs a buff or the %'s, or perhaps a mix of both.

I've said it a handful of times. Read before you reply, because it's already been explained.
AQ Epic  Post #: 27
3/13/2014 10:08:46   
dfo99
Member
 

ok,

and you can prove with surgical matematic precision that this will be enough to balance the class?
Post #: 28
3/13/2014 10:17:20   
Ranloth
Banned


Last time I remember, Devs wanted constructive feedback - not advanced math equations and numerical evidence, when we can't test it ourselves.
AQ Epic  Post #: 29
3/13/2014 11:03:17   
dfo99
Member
 

good

it prove that you suggest is based in you concern of what "think" be better for classe, however you justify you arguments with post like (for example)

quote:

Requiring strategy to use - if buffed - doesn't make it a bad skill, only because other classes have it easie


quote:

I've honestly found Parasite useful on numerous occassions, where even its current %'s and the way it works would be beneficial, but the damage held me back


quote:

I'd keep the requirement, but lower it to max of around 34 at L10, nothing else. It's only there for Strength build, but 42 is a bit of an overkill... And buffing initial damage to 85% - which further justifies keeping the requirement.


and my justify to remove/switch the suport req and deal 100% of damage was:

quote:

100% of dmg be a compensation for parasite be the single mana skill of class and no req a compensation for 3 skills improved with suport + the fact of the parasite be the unique mana skill in the game that the oponent moves can reduce the effect after use.


like we can see, we don't use matematicians formulas to prove anything, but you use you experience to explain what is looks better and me use compensations + my experience (that have by far more 2v2 wins than you)

after you show you main opnion of what is better to do with energy parasite, the veeneria post again seems disagreeing you argument:

quote:

quote:

^ I'd keep the requirement, but lower it to max of around 34 at L10, nothing else. It's only there for Strength build, but 42 is a bit of an overkill... And buffing initial damage to 85% - which further justifies keeping the requirement.


Well, fair enough. Although you should reconsider re-reading what i am talking about here, the problem isn't really just having that support requirement blocking up a bunch of possible builds.

The skill itself, the energy it takes, the requirements, the damage you deal with it..

It is the one and only energy manipulation active skill we've got and it is hamburger level awful! (and that doesn't even make sense!)

You can effectively counter it by depleting your own energy pool, making our "regeneration" of energy useless and our turn wasted in vain.
And even if you manage to actuality make it work, by the time you get your energy, you might either be dead or not really need it.



Can you now see the flaw on it?
But i sure as hell can.


If your concerns are with strength builds, well i regret to tell you that you can accomplish an successful STR build regardless.

This requirement, everything.. about it.. that is wrong.
Only hurts build variety. NOT Overpowered builds


Oh also.
Compare the skill with the equivalents :

Battery Backup
Static Grenade
Static Charge
Assimilation
Static Smash


It creates an huge unbalance in energy manipulation between classes.


at this point me and she not agree with you main argument and you put in you answer back:

quote:

I don't find the "current Energy" concept to be bad, nor holding back the skill greatly. Requiring strategy to use - if buffed - doesn't make it a bad skill, only because other classes have it easier. (Static Grenade/Static Smash)


then, i will made again the same question with other words,

in you opnion, the bloodmages that not agree with you concern is noobs and not know what they say? they need more experience or open the eyes to see that you are correct?




< Message edited by dfo99 -- 3/13/2014 11:09:06 >
Post #: 30
3/13/2014 11:10:55   
DarkDevil
Member

being the only energy skill doesn't mean it should deal 100% damage *looks at static grenade and static smash*

being 100% damage changes it from strategic use to abusive use.

people will just spam it whenever it is off cd keeping enemy from using any small energy regenrative skills.

skill thought to be underpowered doesn't mean it should be buffed to the point where it gets overpowered.

< Message edited by DarkDevil -- 3/13/2014 11:17:50 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 31
3/13/2014 11:19:39   
dfo99
Member
 

quote:

being the only mp skill doesn't mean it should deal 100% damage *looks at static grenade and static smash*

being 100% damage changes it from strategic use to abusive use.

people will just spam it whenever it is off cd keeping enemy from using any small energy regenrative skills.


i forgot of say that i not think that only my suggest is good for the skill, you also can suggest for add more cooldown or any nerf.

i talk about the 100% of damage to be effective use during blood of mark, not because i wanna damage. (is hard to believe but i really try be impartial)

< Message edited by dfo99 -- 3/13/2014 11:21:16 >
Post #: 32
3/13/2014 11:28:46   
Ranloth
Banned


I don't need yours or Ven's support. That's your opinion, not mine. If you can't cope with others disagreeing with you, discussions aren't suited for you - because everyone has their views. Your view is yours, and it's an opinion. I have mine, and I don't need anyone's support for it to be "right" (because opinions are neither right nor wrong).

Also, your experience is irrelevant - I don't need to know you fought more than myself, what does that prove? It doesn't justify anything, apart from showing off. More wins doesn't translate to experience, nor knowing more about the class/game.

quote:

the bloodmages that not agree with you concern is noobs and not know what they say? they need more experience or open the eyes to see that you are correct?

If you could understand English properly - and this is not a personal remark - you'd realise that Energy Parasite doesn't have to be an 'easy to abuse' skill, because other classes have it easy. There's no harm in using your brain, especially when ED was designed to be a strategical PvP in mind. Not every class needs to be dumbened down, to have easy builds to use. Mercenaries are still a fine example, always were.
AQ Epic  Post #: 33
3/13/2014 12:06:23   
dfo99
Member
 

wow, anytime i say that you need opnion of nobody, but considering that this is a opnion based thread you say that:

quote:

If you can't even comprehend simple logic, I'd advise you to not get mixed up around balance discussions. Feedback shouldn't be partial and preferably justified - not "i think this is not op, therefore its ok".


was a very stupid answer because you can't prove you "simple logic", say that my feedback was partial, but can't show why, and say contradictorily "i think this is not op, therefore its ok" but is exactly what you is doing here (i think that 85% and sup req is needed, then its ok) like a arrogant player, (because i am more experienced than you ¬¬)

after this "I'd advise you to not get mixed up around balance discussions" lol

< Message edited by dfo99 -- 3/13/2014 12:14:59 >
Post #: 34
3/13/2014 12:11:48   
Trollok!!!
Member

I think Energy Paarasite needs more of a complete overhaul than anything. Buffing its damage will do little to better the skill when its main purpose is for draining and obtaining energy. The opponent can STILL dump all their energy in one go and then we'll all be back here again, at each others throats.

And sorry dfo99, I'd like to sympathize with you but frankly, I don't understand anything you're saying while Trans is making far more sense...

< Message edited by Trollok!!! -- 3/13/2014 12:13:04 >
DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 35
3/13/2014 12:23:38   
Ranloth
Banned


Working off total Energy could do, with its current %'s. Or keep it at current Energy and perhaps buff the %'s by 5 across the board (10% at L1, and 20% at L20), whilst buffing the damage and lowering the requirement. If the requirement proves unnecessary, then you remove it.
Not all at once, and end up overpowering it, and then BMs getting a nerf - again. Assimilation was overshot at first, and look at what's happened with TMs after the first buff. Yeah... Or CHs with PA and SC combo. We don't know whether dfo's suggestion would overpower it, but better be safe than sorry.
AQ Epic  Post #: 36
3/13/2014 12:23:40   
dfo99
Member
 

quote:

And sorry dfo99, I'd like to sympathize with you but frankly, I don't understand anything you're saying while Trans is making far more sense...


i know, because this i absolut hate post on forum, and do it when the arguments in thread really looks bad. but i know that my arguments also looks noob. i don't like join in conflicts in any forum, my all post not is considered by me the better possible, my unique objetive is show the possibilities to explore.

in truth, i do alot of posts in this thread because is appearing too much threads in ed balance section about parasite, and probably something will happens with the skill

< Message edited by dfo99 -- 3/14/2014 5:50:57 >
Post #: 37
3/13/2014 14:39:12   
veneeria
Member

quote:


Lastly, that's what you believe is wrong with the skill. My only concern is its pitiful damage and a bit high Support requirement. I don't find the "current Energy" concept to be bad, nor holding back the skill greatly. Requiring strategy to use - if buffed - doesn't make it a bad skill, only because other classes have it easier. (Static Grenade/Static Smash)


Ofc it is what i believe, i can't predict any less or more of what you believe, unless you had told me it, in black an white. That is just plain irrelevant, having different ideals and points is actuality makes an good discussion.

Either way, we've got something in common here and that is what i was going on for, it needs to be "fixed".
And finally, seriously, i am rather asking for either of the downsides mentioned to be removed. Not them all simultaneously. One thing in particular though, you might have noticed, i am in favor of having more build variety, which is why i consider the stat requirement kind of an downside.

quote:

You can always change it to work off total Energy. Keep the %'s as they are too. That still doesn't change the concern with Strength builds abusing it, whether it works off total or current Energy - it'd be a bit more viable skill, and effective if used visely (with 85-100% damage and lower requirement).


And that is one way to it. Effectively, we could have it work like mark of blood, but for which works with energy, along with other options.

But if it would work, i am not really sure. That would require a bit more thinking involved.

quote:


Static Smash + Assimilation have weapon requirements. Parasite has stat requirement instead, but weapon requirement means you get less damage and stats overall - stat requirement limits some builds instead. I've honestly found Parasite useful on numerous occassions, where even its current %'s and the way it works would be beneficial, but the damage held me back. It may be pitiful when it comes to the drain, but it returs 150% Energy drained, which is significantly more.


I have had my good times with it too, this is, considering that my enemy doesn't drain me before i have time to actuality get the energy required. In this part i would really like to know more about the usefulness you've found, obviously there is something i might not have thought yet.

And about the bold part in the quote, kinda goes against your suggestion back there about using the % of our enemies total energy pool. What i mean is, either our energy regain is static and only our energy siphon improves... Or.. they both improve but don't have any relation to each other.

quote:

The main emphasis is on the return, not necessarily the drain. BMs never had an EP drain skill, and their flaw was lack of EP returning one. Parasite is designed to do the latter, and partially the former. If you look at Static Grenade, it's the other way round - emphasis on the drain, and very little return. On the other hand, Static Smash is more like Parasite but in one go., whilst Assimilation is in-between the two and weaker at that, to compensate for dealing 85% damage.


I am actuality alright with the drain. The return is what i dislike the most actuality.
Having parasite in one go actuality makes it easier to manage your energy pool, though.
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 38
3/13/2014 15:41:43   
edwardvulture
Member

My solution fixes all these problems. But tbh, I think the skill should be revised so that it encourages energy investment.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 39
3/13/2014 20:47:05   
veneeria
Member

quote:

My solution fixes all these problems. But tbh, I think the skill should be revised so that it encourages energy investment.


So far, from what I've read (sorry if it took so long!), i agree with some of it. It is pretty much what i was and am getting at in this thread too and so far, the only solution presented thus far.

However, like said before, trying to find other choices before anything.



Also unrelated, but also part of your thread :
(if you are reading this scyze)

quote:

I have suggested that Skills requiring no Energy should have HP as the cost.


Kinda glad i am not the only one to notice it, although, there should be 3rd "stamina bar" for those skills which require no energy. Health is.. not really an option. But this.. This might actuality be another way of balancing stuff out.




Also considering about having the amount of energy regenerated from parasite to improve with how much ENERGY we've got and instead of having an stat requirement, have an stat that actuality decreases the effectiveness of the energy parasite.

Meaning, that the higher that "stat" is, the less effective energy parasite is.

< Message edited by veneeria -- 3/13/2014 20:52:21 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 40
3/15/2014 14:16:39   
Darkforce832
Member

Again, if the Support stat was more use full then it is today. Having this high Support requirement would not be much of a problem. Today all I see are 17 maybe 18 Support builds. There's a reason for that.
Post #: 41
3/15/2014 14:23:53   
Ranloth
Banned


Requirement is to stop abuse, not make Support builds more popular though. Having it there cripples the skill, for those who don't want to invest into Support that much - aka, those who want build other than Focus 5.
AQ Epic  Post #: 42
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