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=ED= Official Bounty Hunter Balance Discussion Thread

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6/29/2014 8:42:29   
Therril Oreb
Legendary AdventureGuide!


 With so much interest in developing and discussing balance in ED, it has become apparent that we need to organise! So, in order to make things easier on everyone, from developers to players, we are going to organise some specific threads that will hopefully make discussing this simpler and more effective.

Bounty Hunter Balance Discussion Thread

This is where you can discuss everything balance related to the Bounty Hunter class.
Got a skill that doesn't fit? Perhaps a combo that proves to be too strong and abusable. Discuss it here with everyone!

A few guidelines before we start:
  • All AE Forum rules are still in effect.
  • No comparisons between other classes. You can use certain facts to build your case on, but please do not turn this into a 'BH vs X' thread.
  • Everyone's opinions are just that. Opinions. If you don't agree, that's fine. But, there is no need for rule breaking behaviour.
  • If you see a rule-breaking post, please refer to The Trinity: 1.) Report it 2.) Ignore it 3.) Move on. We would rather you have fun with the discussion and let the Forum Staff worry about rules broken.
  • Constructive Criticism is meant to improve something, not rant, whine and complain to be heard. If you are going to criticise, do so with the intent to give help, not tear down.

    Happy Discussing!



    < Message edited by Therril Oreb -- 6/29/2014 8:42:29 >
    • AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 1
    3/16/2014 17:58:38   
    Xendran
    Member

    		Easily the biggest problem with bounty hunter is just how completely useless shadow arts truly is when compared to every other skill based method of negating damage in the entire game. It needs an absolutely MASSIVE buff to it to bring it to the level of other ones, and to go along with the Bounty Hunter theme of blood and health i have come up with this: 

    Shadow Arts
Fade into shadows, causing attacks to miss vitals and weak points, however you fade out of the protection of shields.
A percentage of damage taken is returned to you during your turn.

Cost: 150 +20 per level
    Level 1:  8%  Damage Reduction | 15.5% of Damage Taken
    Level 2:  11% Damage Reduction | 18.0% of Damage Taken
    Level 3:  14% Damage Reduction | 20.5% of Damage Taken
    Level 4:  17% Damage Reduction | 23.0% of Damage Taken
    Level 5:  20% Damage Reduction | 25.5% of Damage Taken
    Level 6:  23% Damage Reduction | 28.0% of Damage Taken
    Level 7:  26% Damage Reduction | 30.5% of Damage Taken
    Level 8:  29% Damage Reduction | 33.0% of Damage Taken
    Level 9:  32% Damage Reduction | 35.5% of Damage Taken
    Level 10: 35% Damage Reduction | 38.0% of Damage Taken




    You can find my full class revamps Here.

    < Message edited by Xendran -- 3/16/2014 17:59:50 >
    AQ DF Epic  Post #: 2
    3/17/2014 18:09:43   
    Wootz
    Member

    		Here is what I think of the class:

    First, as Xendran stated Shadow arts is useless. The skill isn't cost-efficent, nor does provide good protection. Any armor skill at level 1 easily outgrows it's use, alas they are cheaper to use. That sentence is valid for any other shields/stat buffs. My thoughts for it is either decresing the cost and/or increasing the efficency of it and/or make its effect last longer.

    Secoundly, most of the skills on the skill tree is pretty costy to use and the effect they provide doesn't buff it out.

    Thirdly, the class has one of the worsts Energy controlling skill. The stat increase is poor, the Energy regen is even worse. Adding that to the already expensive skill tree and what do you get? You get a Bounty Hunter who needs a ton of Energy for a build (ofcourse, if you are not running cost-efficent builds).

    Just the sheer ammount of Energy needed to actually make a build with more then one or two higher level skills (Venom and Massacre for example) makes the class virtually unplayable, as it hasn't got any good investment in other stats. Especially during this time when Health is the most needed stat.

    Those are my quick-to-think thoughts. There you go.
    AQW Epic  Post #: 3
    3/25/2014 13:07:15   
    edwardvulture
    Member

    		There really isn't much build options for this class

    < Message edited by edwardvulture -- 3/26/2014 1:00:26 >
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 4
    3/29/2014 3:32:58   
    kaiseryeux21
    Member

    		this class is still very good in 1vs1 especially in level 40's. Most of the players of Dark Vengeance are using the 1700 hp, high strength build with energy sword (mostly celtic clever). It's dominating in 1vs1. Just saying.
    DF Epic  Post #: 5
    3/29/2014 14:31:03   
    edwardvulture
    Member

    		It's not balance if one build for a class is better than everything else.
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 6
    3/29/2014 16:40:59   
    Noobatron x3000
    Member

    		^ I agree but there's a reason every single class is using strength hp builds , because its more powerful/reliable then anything else also the only reliable counter to it is .......wait for it ....... Strength hp. and recent nerfs to energy control not that they were a bad thing made them even stronger at the high end . And also made strength builds actually a competitive option in the mid - high 20s now with the mages nerf ive found the dex mages that were dominating at the lower end of the game can be quite easily taken down with a str hp build on the right class.

    < Message edited by Noobatron x3000 -- 3/29/2014 16:46:01 >
    Post #: 7
    3/30/2014 0:20:59   
    kosmo
    Member
     

    		 Bounty hunter is a unique class, personally my favourite, cause it can deal with evry class, expecially on first turn.The class is weack to massive dmg expecially in long lasting battles, so skills, cores and bot specials used in a defensive way can be very useful when your opponent has a damage/turn advantage.
    In my opinion this class has the most viable build options, while strenght builds are extremly strong (strenght builds wouldn t even be that strong without those legendary ranks), bh has the best 5 focus build, that became even more competitve after latest balance updates (hetchilling rush nerf, assimilation cooldown nerf, static smash cooldown nerf and expecially abyss bot nerf, that was better if used without 5 focus lol).
    With the little enenrgy regain options of strenght bh, poison and massacre become kinda useless, wich makes claws unusable and leves you many skill points around; this also happens for focus bh, wich is stronger with lower level skills and base energy (it s not worth investing in energy for 99% of all builds, this stat looks impossible to balance :)
    So, all this class needs is a usefull skill, not to buff it, but to invest all those points left from the best builds: I' d suggest a slight buff to stun to complete their skill three, I wouldn' t boder of useless skills like shadows or multi, all classes have useless skills at high levels, but you have to consider that they might be useful for lower levels.
    I' d suggest bh to all kind of players, it can be played both cheap and fast with great results, and with extreme skill in slower battles.
    Epic  Post #: 8
    4/13/2014 13:43:06   
    The berserker killer
    Member

     

    		 Ok i'm not normally one to say that the balance is unfair or somethings wrong with the game but I truly and honestly believe that Mark Of Blood is getting out of control. Now it was fine back when level 36 was the level cap. The Strength:Defense ratio of a single player was fair. You either had Moderate Str and Moderate Defense or High Str and Low Def, etc. NOW, with legendary points, strength is getting out of control with BETTER defense!!!!!! I know that Legendary Points are here to help "Per-fect your build" but these Bounty Hunters and Blood Mages are murdering everyone. Murdering them to the point where most people are switching over to Blood Mage or Bounty Hunter.

    I am rank 26, so at first it didnt bother me a few weeks ago when there were 7 or 8 Bountys with the same build. Now? I'm just a little bugged that every other match i walk in to I am fighting a Bounty or Blood Mage. I still win alot, don't get me wrong, but BARELY! Which makes me think that other people are getting SLAYED. If you can check how many people have switched to those classes in the past few days I guarantee you it's a high number.

    I am not saying that Mark Of Blood is a bad skill, KEEP IT! I am just saying that this is a flaw that has been exposed with the new Legendary system and I suggest nerfing it for level 40s just as the Abyss Bot was nerfed for level 40s. PLEASE COMMENT!

    Suggestions (choose 1 out of the 3):

    1) Nerfing Mark of Blood for level 40s slightly
    2) Buffing hatchling rush back to 50% Health Regeneartion seeing as it was the only skill to rival Mark Of Blood. If you won't Buff it Back then at least make the uses for it unlimited now.
    3) Make the Mark Of Blod requirement Support instead of tech.... That only seems logical, just like it's logical for the requirement for Static Charge on Cyber Hunters is Technology.


    --Ghost God--

    AQ DF Epic  Post #: 9
    4/13/2014 14:29:12   
    DarkLore
    Member

    		I never did really like playing ED. I do briefly every week to see what's new. I don't k.ow much about BH. I merely picked it due to my love for that profession. I don't know much about its skills. Is it even that good? I'm convinced it needs a full revamp due to my deaty count. But I have countless wins from 1v1 as people claimed. It's a bit worse 2v2 wise. Or I'm that bad at ED. I may never get over how unbalanced the gameplay is even to this day. OS runs on a PvP system that runs far better IMHO. And its been around far less. than ED.
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 10
    4/13/2014 16:49:47   
    Therril Oreb
    Legendary AdventureGuide!


    		 A couple of posts have been removed since they just moved into disrespectful arguments. All ideas and discussions are welcome here as long as they are on-topic and to help in discussing the balance for Bounty Hunter.
    Disregarding other people's posts, saying they do not count or anything in that line is NOT appreciated here AT ALL. Everyone here has the same rights to discuss and share their opinions and everyone here is on the same level.
    Anyone feeling he is better or his opinion is more important than others should refrain from posting. Everyone here, be it a veteran or a new person is just as welcome to talk.

    That being said, I hope not to see this again. And if someone here breaks the rules, you are not replying to it. You report it to an online archknight or moderator and ignore it afterwards. Just continue the discussion while the rule breaking post is handled.
    AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 11
    4/13/2014 17:28:24   
    Mother1
    Member

    		@ the berseker killer

    (1) on your list

    Changing skills because capped level players who are using the current flavor of the week build to get wins is a horrible idea. What about everyone who is lower than level 40 and what about those who aren't using this build? They will be affected by this change as well. Not to mention this tactic has been used before and as a result it caused another group of players to become overpowered with it. If anything why not take care of the real problem which in this case seems to be strength instead of nerfing mark of blood?

    Doing this would in turn deal with the problem that is actually at hand while not hurting the other players using Mark of blood who aren't using that build.

    We can't just balance the game for one group while wreaking balance for another group while doing so.

    (2) on your list

    The staff nerfed hatching rush because if was overpowered and buffing it back to what it was before will be extremely counterproductive. As for making the core unlimited that will overpower the core then it was before. Especially if you are an energy class that can get energy back real easy.

    As for the last suggestion on your list I am not seeing how logical that is. Could you give some other reasons so I can understand?
    Epic  Post #: 12
    4/13/2014 22:48:07   
    edwardvulture
    Member

    		haha OS does have better balance, I've been playing it more than ED recently, and also league of legends....

    I have to say ED needs way more than 2 build options for each class to survive in the long run and there are many ways to do that and they all require more testing then anyone would know. Yes, there are many wrong things with the legendary system, the fact that it encourages builds that require a relatively low amount of skill and builds that abuse outdated battle mechanics. Also how the real veteran players got completely ripped off for all their previous wins.

    BH is still one of the most popular classes, but as mentioned, balance is not reached when there are really only 2 builds with no exact counters that work. There needs to be counters within and out of the whole class.

    Another with mark of blood is that it favors strength builds above all else because strength builds can deal constant damage without using energy, in this sense, mark of blood could be considered more effective than old blood lust because in a bh strength build, you are using around 3 or 4 skills and you do not need energy invesetment. Also, take note mark of blood has higher HP returns.

    ...now to fix this, we don't nerf strength, we split the skill tree, return mark of blood to blood lust, add a lot more skills that scale on stats beside strength, fix rage, encourage investment in energy, fix rage, re-do legendary mode,
    ...there are a lot of things that needs to be done.
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 13
    4/14/2014 1:34:34   
    Ranloth
    Banned


    		 Yes, we being back passives under your suggestion, and even then, Strength builds were broken. That doesn't solve anything apart from promoting your own suggestion.

    Strength has always been the problem, whether it was with or without passives. Bringing them back will do nothing, and Devs won't bring back passives anyway.
    AQ Epic  Post #: 14
    4/14/2014 22:09:18   
    edwardvulture
    Member

    		They won't put back passives the way they were, we know that for sure. But it is irrefutable that skills like static smash and battery back-up benefit every kind of build and that is why they need to split the skill tree. Passives, every single one of them, were universally beneficial and that is why people loved them. Strength builds were always a problem because other builds simply cannot compete with their constant damage output that often costs 0 energy and please do not say "under your suggestion" when you know I've stated directly that there are a lot more things that needs to be done with or without my suggestion. You know my suggestion is a lot more than "bringing back passives". The way you put it makes my suggestion sound retroactive when it is something that is uncharted waters for Epicduel.

    We can agree strength builds are more OP without passives than with.
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 15
    4/14/2014 22:14:08   
    GearzHeadz
    Member

    		I'm with Edward on this. I agree with mostly all his points.
    DF AQW Epic  Post #: 16
    4/26/2014 9:36:31   
    Wootz
    Member

    		Reposting in the correct thread.



    I've been using this skill quite a lot recently and I came into the conclusion that even with a broken damage calculation on it is quite a killer. A high leveled Massacre does a huge ammount of raw damage without even using a debuff prior to its activation.

    An example to this would be a Venom-Massacre build on a Bounty Hunter. A level 8 Massacre will do a minimum of 400 damage againts even the highest tankers in the game.
    For example. My main build currently is a Venom-Massacre one. With the primary damage between 490 and 540 (rounded down). Now, a level 8 Massacre has a 102% damage increase, meaning that the skills damage prior to getting negated by Defenses would be between 990 and 1090 (rounded down). At some point in the damage calculation: an ammount between 150 to 200 points of damage is lost. But that still leaves the raw damage at an incredibly high ammount. After adding opponents defenses: which are most commonly between 320 to 460 defense points; the damage is left at a minimum 400 points (if battling a player with a huge defense level). That is rather scary to know, because you can litterally take down anyone who is bellow 500 Health. And the skills cost? Absolutly easily managable (if I can succesfully run it, so can anyone else).

    What I'd propose is an even greater reduction of Massacres bonus damage. Capping between 80% and 95%. Or making its damage modifier calculation happen after the base primary damage gets diminished by opponents defenses.

    Note: my example is without a debuffg



    AQW Epic  Post #: 17
    4/26/2014 10:26:30   
    GearzHeadz
    Member

    		Again, if you lower the damage you will have to give it some secondary and possibly trimary effects.
    DF AQW Epic  Post #: 18
    4/28/2014 23:51:17   
    Teserve
    Member

    		I agree with Edward, he puts it quite nicely.
    MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 19
    5/3/2014 19:37:49   
    veneeria
    Member

    		Really don't understand what was the thought behind making static grenade improve with anything at all.

    But regardless, shadow arts has to go or be completely overhauled.
    It just doesn't make sense having another "shield" on the bounty hunters skill three, while simultaneously, being the most underwhelming shield of them all, with the most awkward requirements.

    There is also no point to add an shield above another shield too.


    ...So.. what gives?
    AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 20
    5/3/2014 20:01:57   
    Mother1
    Member

    		@ veneeria

    Shadow arts isn't a shield but an attack ignoring skill. Shields cause opponents to gain extra rage due to them having to attack players with higher defenses. Shadow arts on the other hand doesn't give extra rage gain due to the fact that it ignores a percent of the attack damage without adding to defenses.

    The skill itself is actually good for removing Damage without adding extra rage gain. The only problem I see with it is that due to the strain on energy most people rather now use it. If anything Shadow arts could use a buff in effect at all levels while a cheaper energy cost.
    Epic  Post #: 21
    5/5/2014 9:35:48   
    rayniedays56
    Member

    		The issues with Bounty Hunter are it's lack of synergy with any of it's skills.

    You have Smokescreen and MoB, which both require a hefty amount of EP to properly use. Then you have Shadow Arts, which, to be honest, needs a slight buff put into it, like maybe getting rid of the requirement?

    Then we have Static Grenade. Lord knows I hate this skill. I hated this skill when it was OP and I sincerely hate this skill when it is now UP. I honestly have no idea why it scales with support...


    For this move, I think it needs to scale with Technology once more, BUT it also needs a buff on its EP steal, NOT its drain.


    Right now we have it doing this:
    Drain the target's energy. User absorbs 35% of the drained energy.
    Improves With:
    Skill Level
    Level 1: 85 Energy Points
    Level 2: 110 Energy Points
    Level 3: 125 Energy Points
    Level 4: 140 Energy Points
    Level 5: 155 Energy Points
    Level 6: 170 Energy Points
    Level 7: 180 Energy Points
    Level 8: 190 Energy Points
    Level 9: 200 Energy Points
    Level 10: 210 Energy Points
    Stat (Support)
    +10 Energy Point at 5 Support, +10 Energy Point per 4.5 Support after
    Cool Down: 4 Turns

    When it needs to do this:

    Drain the target's energy. User absorbs a % of the drained energy.

    Improves With:
    Skill Level
    Level 1: 65 Energy Points (15%)
    Level 2: 80 Energy Points (20%)
    Level 3: 95 Energy Points (25%)
    Level 4: 110 Energy Points (30%)
    Level 5: 125 Energy Points (35%)
    Level 6: 140 Energy Points (40%)
    Level 7: 150 Energy Points (45%)
    Level 8: 160 Energy Points (50%)
    Level 9: 170 Energy Points (55%)
    Level 10: 180 Energy Points (60%)
    Stat (Technology)
    +12 Energy Point at 24 technology, +12 Energy Point per 4 technology, +12 Energy Point per 4.5 technology at 60 technology, +12 Energy Point per 5 technology at 95 technology
    Cool Down: 4 Turns

    What this gives will be:

    (Standard 5 Focus Build (level 37))

    45+34 technology (79 technology)

    Max Static Grenade

    Initial at 24 12EP per 4 to 60 12EP per 4.5 to 79
    180 EP + (12EP) +(9(12 EP)) + (4(12EP)


    180 +12 +108 +48

    348 Energy Stolen
    with
    209 Energy Gained

    And no, if this was buffed, Assimilation would NOT need buffed since it does damage, has an unblockable EP regain, AND gives EP also. Just my thoughts. And no, I'm not saying this cause I'm a BH. I change classes literally once a month.



    < Message edited by rayniedays56 -- 5/5/2014 9:37:23 >
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 22
    5/5/2014 23:50:34   
    Dual Thrusters
    Member

    		The thing that bothers me the most about Shadow Arts is how much you actually get out of it.

    So when you cast Shadow Arts, you lost 100% of your attack power, (because obviously you don't attack). Over time, the opponent will lose 84% of his power assuming he attacks every turn. Therefore, that puts you at a 16% disadvantage. And that's when you have fully upgraded the skill!

    I propose to increase the duration of the skill by 1 turn, so that it may actually benefit the caster. From here, it will benefit by 12%.
    MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 23
    5/7/2014 21:31:53   
    Teserve
    Member

    		@above
    Yes, it is a fundamental flaw that you lose damage when you use it (y'know what I mean). I would support your solution.

    < Message edited by Teserve -- 5/7/2014 21:32:05 >
    MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 24
    5/10/2014 15:24:43   
    GearzHeadz
    Member

    		This skill has potential to be useful, but its energy cost, low %, short duration, and support requirement makes it not worth it. I suggest increasing its % to 30% for 4 turns and dropping its support requirement.

    OR

    Replace the skill with a move that deals an increasing % of damage of the opposite damage type of your base weapon. It would scale the same as bludgeon, but still have the support and energy requirements as shadow arts. No weapon requirement. Blockable. (Example: If your weapon deals physical damage, then this skill will deal energy damage, if your weapon deals energy damage, this skill will deal physical damage)

    Skill Level
    Level 1: 23% More Damage of opposite damage type
    Level 2: 26% More Damage of opposite damage type
    Level 3: 29% More Damage of opposite damage type
    Level 4: 32% More Damage of opposite damage type
    Level 5: 35% More Damage of opposite damage type
    Level 6: 38% More Damage of opposite damage type
    Level 7: 41% More Damage of opposite damage type
    Level 8: 44% More Damage of opposite damage type
    Level 9: 47% More Damage of opposite damage type
    Level 10: 50% More Damage of opposite damage type

    110 Energy (+20 per skill level increase)
    Level 1: 110 Energy
    Level 2: 130 Energy
    Level 3: 150 Energy
    Level 4: 170 Energy
    Level 5: 190 Energy
    Level 6: 210 Energy
    Level 7: 230 Energy
    Level 8: 250 Energy
    Level 9: 270 Energy
    Level 10: 290 Energy

    24 Support (+2 per skill level increase)
    Level 1: 24 Support
    Level 2: 26 Support
    Level 3: 28 Support
    Level 4: 30 Support
    Level 5: 32 Support
    Level 6: 34 Support
    Level 7: 36 Support
    Level 8: 38 Support
    Level 9: 40 Support
    Level 10: 42 Support

    Cool down: 2 turns
    DF AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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