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RE: =ED= Official Mercenary Balance Discussion Thread

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8/25/2014 22:21:29   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Oh I didn't know you were urfear!!!! <3
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 76
8/25/2014 22:37:52   
kosmo
Member
 

 im kr3p, me and my bro are forced to post from same account (i wasnt t been able to make 2 accounts from the same iP)

whatever, hi ghost x)

< Message edited by kosmo -- 8/25/2014 22:40:27 >
Epic  Post #: 77
8/28/2014 19:06:49   
Variation
Member
 

 @kosmo: Well that's your problem then, along with many other players in the balance forums. I'm not the only player in the world that hard counters BC Mercenaries in 1v1. They're very easily countered like I've pointed out, some players just refuse to change their strategies.

PvP for the most part comes down to strategy. A high ranking player who has bad strategies will most likely lose to a better strategist. I've faced many rank 30+ players who simply fail at strategy. They can start first on me, and get loads of luck factors and still lose simply because I outplayed them. Players in this game are so fast to attack balance, and I wonder if they ever ask themselves is "balance really the problem?" Most of the time it really isn't. I will say that not all skills are balanced, in fact some of them are extremely broken (Blood Commander isn't a broken one), but those skills alone don't overpower their respective classes. No class in this game is overpowered, and BC Mercenaries are very far from being overpowered. I see that because I actually invest time into counters, and I refuse to attack balance as an issue when the counters to that skill are shockingly obvious.

On a side note, I'm not even a Mercenary. I'm not posting in this thread for myself or my class, I'm posting in it because Mercenary as a class isn't overpowered.



< Message edited by Variation -- 8/28/2014 19:44:15 >
Post #: 78
8/28/2014 19:55:14   
Mother1
Member

@ variation

What skills would you say are broken then? Personally I can think off a few but for the most part other than those I don't see any others. I can agree with you that blood commander isn't overpowered seeing as it can be countered in several ways.
Epic  Post #: 79
8/30/2014 16:07:04   
santonik
Member

Should this be added to the game.
for example. blood_commander if the mercenary makes a buff. This gives the hp to. This is followed by surcigal_strike. Again, this gives HP.

should both skills to enter the HP to back? both skills to use your energy.
I know that the FOCUS / TECH / SUPPORT players would benefit the most. if the hp recoveries to stack.
(combo of blood commander + surcigal strike)
the downside to this combo is that high energy. And the poor hp intake.


110~200energy + 320~590energy =430~790energy


1lvl blood commander using 110 energy. 10lvl using 200 energy.
1 lvl surcigal strike using 320 energy. 10 lvl surcigal strike using 590 energy.

Players should be encouraged to use different variations. This could be one way to add variety.

If I had to decide so both of these should be provided at the same time the hp to back.
blood commander and surcigal strike. This in itself is a weak side, it is energy.
Epic  Post #: 80
8/30/2014 16:12:49   
Ranloth
Banned


 Logically speaking, if you're gonna use Blood Commander, you will likely rely on attacks which improve with Strength - cores, gun, skills, etc - as opposed to ones that improve with another stat (unless out of options). And no, they shouldn't stack - just like how MoB doesn't stack with Super Charge, and neither did BloodLust. It'd be too overpowered, especially in 2v2.
AQ Epic  Post #: 81
8/30/2014 17:39:52   
kosmo
Member
 

 ^not necessarely, bc is the best strategy even whit a tank/hp focus build (support gives a good incrase to this skill) and u dont need a big investment on energy to make it effective, since strikes can easely bring ur opponent down, at tht point ur left whit enought energy to use surgial/bunker + rage bot.

< Message edited by kosmo -- 8/30/2014 17:41:35 >
Epic  Post #: 82
10/24/2014 23:26:17   
youbo
Member
 
quote:

Something that I find quite unbalancing is the fact that static smash AND ONLY static smash can be blocked,every other energy control skills cannot.(assimilate can,but it don't affect energy)

I suggest to either :
-make it unblockable
-make everything else blockable/deflectable with proper effect reduction

That is what I posted as an new thread since I was talking about energy control skills in general,not just static smash but I got redirected here so I will continue here.

For convenience sake,here is the reply I got before the thread was closed:
quote:

Ok 1st off BOTH static smash and atom smash are blockable, It's not just one move.

Secondly, they are blockable because they have the highest energy drain out of all of the other skills. If you keep getting blocked, invest some more stats into dexterity so you don't get blocked, that's what it's there for.

Making it unblockable would just be OP and we would see alot more STR mercs running around with.

Also the other skills are unblockable because they only can drain so much, it's not that much compared to atom and static.


First,yeah,your right,I forgot atom smash. I think it should be also fixed like static smash.
Its NOT the highest drain,I drain about 270 with it while static grenade drain over 300(there is also EMP but it cost energy so it don't count)
Even with high dex,you still get randomly blocked.And it would not be fair that this skill require another stat to be somewhat reliable while others don't.
Yes, it have the most overall effect(if we add both the drain+recovery),but this is NORMAL,its the only weapon-specific energy control skill and do absolutely NOTHING else beside energy AND require the opponent to have the energy to recover energy.
ALL other energy skills have advantages to make up for it. Whether is it rage-gaining,damage dealing or being always usable no matter the opponent's energy,they all have something else they do.Static smash simply drain more in exchange for doing nothing else.

Therefore, I propose the following fixes(don't apply 1 and 2 together,obviously):
- Make static smash unblockable
- Make all other energy control skills be affected by blocks/deflections too
- Make blocked static smash give an high ammount of rage

They all also apply to atom smasher. Any of them can fix the problem individually,but applying 2 and 3(change it to blocked/deflected energy control attacks in general) together seems best to me. Applying only the first one also work well and is easy.
AQ MQ Epic  Post #: 83
10/25/2014 0:40:58   
Mother1
Member

@ Youbo

You may think it is fair to either

A) remove Static smash's only drawback of being blocked because none of the other drainers can be blocked (excluding atom smasher)
B) give all the other drainers the drawback of being blocked or deflected because Atom/Static Smash has this draw back

But you forget that all the other drainers for them not having that draw back has more drawbacks to them than Static smash to compensate for them being the way they are.

Assimilation like atom and static smash is locked to a weapon as well. Also Assimilation has the worst energy drain out of all of both the energy drainers and Energy gainer/drainers because it gives rage and damage. Also Assimilation has the most expensive powerup rate out of all of the energy drainers/gainers. It costs you 10 stats of strength to power it up my 1 point which is a lot and so heavy that even high strength builds using Assimilation will only get between 200-250 energy drained when maxed out if they use it where as all of the other energy drainer's and drainers can easily get past this with less investment in stats and skill points.

Not let's look at energy parasite. Unlike the other three i mentioned this one isn't locked to a weapon. Also like Assimilation it can give rage and damage. However that is all their is for the perks of this skill. Here are the drawbacks. With this skill since it lingers it can be countered by burning off all of your energy making the return to the blood mage weak. This means unlike the other energy drainer/gainers this one can be crippled because it lingers. Also unlike the other drainers Energy parasite has a support requirement which many blood mages in game complain about. Static smash doesn't have this issue.

Next up static grenade. This energy drainer is unblockable meaning it will always hit. However this is the only perk to this drainer. It's downside is that it has a low conversation base (not as low as assimilation but is is low) It needs support to power up the drain rate unlike the others which work off of strength or Technology in EMP's case.

Now we look at EMP grenade. This drainer is a real power house when it comes to removing energy. One EMP can destroy even more than Atom Smasher if the investment in tech is high enough. However unlike like the other energy drainers this one has an energy cost. This means that this move can be stopped if you remove enough energy to stop it. None of the other drainers mentioned before this one can be stopped in this way including static Smash. Also the drain of this move can be nerfed with Malfuction, and omega override if tech is the highest stat. Not to mention unlike Static grenade this drainer can only drain not recover energy.

Now we look at Atom Smasher. Like Static Smash it is blockable, and like Emp grenade it costs energy to use. However Atom Smasher's Energy cost is cheaper than EMP grenades because of the fact that it is blockable unlike EMP grenade. It is also why Atom Smasher has a higher drain rate than Static smash because it is a pure energy drainer.

My point of listing these is that all of these drainers or drainers/gainers have their upsides and downsides be it weapon requrement, Stat requirement, the fact they can be weakened ETC. Saying that we need to make all of the drainers work the same because other drainers have that perk and/or other perks without looking at all of the drawbacks while doing so will unbalance them even more in the form of

A) making the drainer/gainer too powerful with little drawback (Static Smash/Atom Smasher)
B) Making the Drainer/gainer be too weak and too many downsides (Assimation, EMP grenade, Static grenade, energy Parasite)

Epic  Post #: 84
10/25/2014 1:56:46   
youbo
Member
 

 lets see,assuming static smash become unblockable:
static smash: using this as the baseline
assimilation: -low drain/gain,+damage+rage
energy parasite is a special case since it apply a status and is very variable, I agree its fine as it is
Static grenade: +a little bit higher drain,+not weapon locked, -low gain
EMP: -cost energy, -no gain,+ VERY high drain,+ not weapon locked

As you can see,everything would have upsides and downsides compared to an unblockable static smash. I don't see how its unbalancing. Option 1 would result in the above,option 2 would just add an downside to all of them(expect parasite),option 3 will add both an downside and upside to static smash(or everything if also 2)
AQ MQ Epic  Post #: 85
10/25/2014 2:32:57   
Mother1
Member

Youbo

Option one would be removing the only draw back to static smash while leaving the others with all their draw backs without doing anything to compensate for losing said draw back.

Every move in the game has to have a downside to it like it or not and as they are now every energy drainer/gainer already has at least one pro and con. Your first suggestion removes the con from Static smash and one of the two cons from Atom Smasher while leaving the other energy drainers the same.

Option two would just be adding unneeded drawbacks to skills that already have several draw back to them. While leaving Static smash and Atom Smasher the same.

As for option 3 (which I didn't see from before) Rage used to be given whenever Atom Smasher was blocked in the past. During one of the update changes this way removed. Why I honestly don't know. My guess is that they removed it because Static/Atom Smash while a melee attack doesn't attack the person but their energy.
Epic  Post #: 86
10/25/2014 17:38:32   
Jacobfarrow1
Member

@Mother1
If a person was unable to take away Energy, wouldn't it logically make them as angry (AKA Rage) as they would have been if they had been unable to take away Health? I don't see how attacking a person physically gives Rage while attacking someone mentally (Let's just assume Energy = mental) doesn't. Meh, I guess we won't know why they removed it until the team says so.
AQW Epic  Post #: 87
10/25/2014 20:21:16   
Stonehawk
Member

I agree with Jacobfarrow1. And I disagree with youbo.

@youbo, don't forget static smasher improves with primary weapon damage (which is improved by strength). It's the only energy gaining skill that can be improved with a stat boosting skill. Making this skill unblockable will make it drain 400+ energy from opponents and recovering 300+ energy with blood commander WITHOUT a chance to fail, making it really overpowered.

@Jacobfarrow, giving rage for failing to drain (being blocked) makes sense and is a good idea, but I think it'll be hard to work because of the game system. Rage increases based on damage and ignored damage on health, I guess... no energy taking skills gives rage unless they hit health too... but I would appreciate this kind of change.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 88
10/25/2014 20:43:12   
Mother1
Member

@ Stonehawk

Actually Assimilation and atom Smasher both work with strength as well so if you used blood/field commander on a TM/TLM Atom Smasher and Assimilation would also get a boost in power.
Epic  Post #: 89
10/25/2014 20:55:37   
youbo
Member
 

 @Mother1
I just explained it in my latest post,option #1 would be removing an unneeded drawback from static,the others ALL ALREADY HAVE stuff to compensate with.
Static already have a downside in needing a club,with the upside of having the most drain+gain total.

@Jacobfarrow1
I totaly agree with you. In fact, I was exactly thinking what you said.

@Stonehawk
Assimilation and static charge can also be improved with stat boosting skills but I concede that static smash is the only one with his stat-boosting skill in the same skillset(class)
However,they have to spend a turn using blood commander. Its the whole point of using the buff,it make attacks stronger than they should be otherwise at the cost of energy and a turn.You can't compare a buffed skill with a non-buffed one,they non-buffed one did not use up a turn and energy. Additionnaly,by using static smash under blood commander,they waste part of the buff as it don't regain HP,nor more % of energy.

Option 3 should be pretty easy to work,if rage is usually based on ignored damage,make this based on ignored energy drain and voila!(ex: If an 270 energy drain get blocked,you would get the same amount of rage as an blocked attack that would otherwise do 270 damage(minus what you get for simply attacking))

AQ MQ Epic  Post #: 90
10/25/2014 21:26:02   
Jacobfarrow1
Member

@youbo
I don't see your example being too hard to code... All they'd have to do is swap a variable (Health for Energy) in the rage damage calculation, if they use something like this: 
RageGain = CurrentHealth - DamageDealt * (Whatever multiplier they use)
or something of the sort. I know that the formula I just gave is terribly crude, I haven't coded for a while. The one they actually use is probably much more complex, but the gist of it stays the same: Replace varHealth with varEnergy (var is sometimes used as a prefix for variables, just so you know), or whatever name they gave them.

If someone knows a reason why this would be difficult to code, please tell me.

Man, how I wish I was old enough to volunteer to code for the team... *sigh*
AQW Epic  Post #: 91
10/25/2014 21:42:51   
Mother1
Member

@ Jacobfarrow1

You forgot to add the block variable seeing as the rage gain is suppose to occur if the move is blocked not if it connects. If the rage gain happened everytime the move was used whether it was blocked or not then it could become overpowered.
Epic  Post #: 92
10/25/2014 22:25:54   
Jacobfarrow1
Member

Ah, crap. You've got me there :3
It wasn't intentional, I forgot to put in a variable xD I've done that before.

Still... It shouldn't be that hard to just swap the two mentioned variables, even if the formula has the block variable too.

Thanks for pointing that out, Mother1. :)
AQW Epic  Post #: 93
10/25/2014 23:03:20   
Dual Thrusters
Member

Or it could be made so SSmash's secondary effect is to grant rage on blocks. I'm thinking that it should be based on a third of SSmash's conversion rate.

E.g. at level 10 Static Smash is at a 65% conversion. So if it is blocked, it could give about 22% of your max rage unaffected by support (somewhat like adrenaline), which seems pretty balanced to me.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 94
10/26/2014 14:30:53   
Jacobfarrow1
Member

@ Dual Thrusters
Yeah, that seems better than what I said, as well as much easier to code. 
 If StaticSmashBlocked = True then
CurrentRage += (ConversionRate /3)
Else
(The normal code for SS goes here)


Can you find any errors or mistakes in that formula? I used Visual Basic standard form, so if that isn't the right kind of form, let me know. I really need to learn more coding. Too bad my high school only teaches Java (And VB, but I completed that course)...
AQW Epic  Post #: 95
11/2/2014 19:50:05   
youbo
Member
 

 I just noticed a problem with this:

A level 1 static smash is not only barely over half the effect of an level 10 static smash. Higher conversion only increase the gain,not the drain.
Also,22% seems pretty low to me. We are talking about an very-high cooldown skill being blocked. Even a blocked basic strike give more than 22%,It should be about the equivalent of an blocked robot attack.

Therefore,I propose the following formulae: (100%+Conversion %)/5
A blocked level 1 will give 27% and and blocked level 10 will give 33%
AQ MQ Epic  Post #: 96
11/4/2014 11:48:01   
Arikonian
Member

^ Agreed ^

I also think that Adrenaline Rush needs to go to be replaced, maybe with poison grenade?

_____________________________

-Arikonian, Dominus of Death
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 97
11/4/2014 15:55:33   
Mother1
Member

@ Arkonian

Most likely won't be happening. The staff is trying to give the classes different moves not have them share moves. The main reason for this is because if they do this if toxic grenade became overpowered or underpowered for one but is fine for the other the class that is ok with the move would get unjust nerf or an unneeded buff.

This happened when the staff buffed blood lust for blood mage only to give bounty hunter the same buff when they didn't need it.
Epic  Post #: 98
11/15/2014 14:24:13   
Stonehawk
Member

@Mother1

I meant to say that Mercs/TLMs are the only ones that can use a skill on themselves to boost their own energy draining skill, but to compensate they are blockable. I know Tech Mage's draining skill improves with strength, though. But they can't use a skill to increase their own draining skill. I was just defending the idea of keeping those skills blockable because they can be boosted by the caster.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 99
12/11/2014 10:04:18   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 I say this once and I say it again, atom smash and static smash should deal damage.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 100
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