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RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread

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1/13/2015 23:12:53   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Just saying, ANYONE can switch to this class and use either F5 or a 1200 hp build and win 85%+ of his matches. I promise you. That is not balance.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 201
1/13/2015 23:37:15   
Mother1
Member

@ Dfo99

it could also be used when you have no energy to drain unlike the other drainers. back then it was also abused for unblockable rage which meant no worries about a block screwing you over and unlike all the other energy drainers doesn't shut down when the opponent has 0 energy.
Epic  Post #: 202
1/14/2015 0:24:10   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 BM currently hosts an absolutely ridiculous kit which is so versatile it can adapt to pretty much any situation and prepare counters against almost all common builds. It's just insane how unstoppable the class is because of its skill tree.

You have an always-relevant energy drain that forces opponents to consume their energy quickly. The conversion rate also outclasses almost any other drain.
You have a built-in form of healing from MoB that forces opponents to either play very defensively or outdamage you while it is active
Low chance of the opponent outdamaging you given you have very strong counter options to debuffs as well as intimidate which barely costs energy as well
If that wasn't enough, bludgeon is amazingly cost-efficient and always hits physical damage, making your offense extremely varied and always a potential threat from burst combos, especially paired with some things such as IA or azrael's will
For those who like Plasma cannon, you can opt for that in your skill tree and always pose a threat of chunking a ridiculous fraction off of the opponent's health. Even if it doesn't crit it still hits VERY hard.

Even with a huge branch of the skill tree just being outright useless, every single other skill is way to optimized and synergizes so cleanly that this class is near unstoppable. Its core high-win rate build also scales extremely well with legend ranks compared to some other builds such as caster which don't scale too well with ranks at all.

Epic  Post #: 203
1/14/2015 3:42:45   
King Bling
Member

Probably you guys dont know how to counter parasite then, like a smart CH would do, wait for the 3rd turn, static and heal, and this is how bm cannot get his energy, if you stay bm for a logn time you will get to know, that collect energy from crap is so hard, after one plasma cannon when the enemy got 200 health and you got none and when you use parasite, you get hardly 40 energy while they can heal.
Post #: 204
1/14/2015 4:15:21   
RageSoul
Member

^Simple solution for that : don't use any ability other than Parasite , Mark of Blood and/or Field Medic . Use Parasite before they Static Charge when they have enough Energy for you to drain . Plus , said skills barely cost a lot of Energy and are more helpful that Plasma Cannon in the long run . Also , any non-Focus build that has 800+ Energy is screwed ; any base Energy builds ( a.k.a the majority ) won't be due to less Energy-depending power from Energy , hence it looks like it's not useful , but really it is . More than useful actually.

< Message edited by RageSoul -- 1/14/2015 4:16:51 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 205
1/14/2015 8:35:49   
Variation
Member
 
quote:

...that this class is near unstoppable


The class is nowhere near unstoppable. People like to reference Blood Mage as being so "powerful"/"overpowered" because they have trouble with them, and that is clearly a strategy issue. Not an issue with Blood Mage's balance. Blood Mages are crazily easy to beat if players would just play against them with the right strategies.

This all stems from the fact that most players want to believe they're losing due to balance issues and most of the time it simply isn't true. For the Blood Mage case some players are blaming Energy Parasite -- which is easily countered. I'm a Tech Mage at the time and I have absolutely no trouble with Blood Mages, nor did I ever have trouble with them as any other class. Players would rather attack balance than attacking their strategies, and you never make much progress with that ;). I have a 94%+ overall win%(all modes combined) and I didn't get that from losing to classes that players consider "overpowered" in the battle modes.

If some players are having a hard time with Blood Mages it's simply because they're playing wrong against them. It's that simple no trickery, black magic, or balance concerns.

Intimidate shouldn't get nerfed -- especially when strength builds are running rampant, which they are for a reason ;).

Energy Parasite shouldn't get nerfed, the skill is hardly problematic considering it's easily countered in early-game situations and practically useless in late-game situations -- compare it to skills such as Assimilation, Static Smash, Static Grenade and see how much useful those are in late-game situations ;).

< Message edited by Variation -- 1/14/2015 8:47:53 >
Post #: 206
1/14/2015 9:37:13   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Winning 85%+ of your matches is not balance. At least 30 people in ed are winning 85%+ of their matches. That is not balance. Thats murder
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 207
1/14/2015 12:45:33   
Variation
Member
 

 ^
quote:

...ANYONE can switch to this class and use either F5 or a 1200 hp build and win 85%+ of his matches...


So you go from that, which explains why 85% as a Blood Mage is "not balance." Then "Winning 85%+ of your matches is not balance."

I will address both.

Firstly: Any skilled player can do 85%+ with all classes, so how exactly does Blood Mage stand out in this scenario?

Secondly: How is winning 85%+ of your matches not "balanced?" I'd really love to know. Players such as myself, ConQrR, and a few others I know have been playing for 5+ years so from a logical standpoint is it not reasonable for us to be able to win 85%+ of our matches(I generally do 98%+ in 1v1)? It's only logical that there will be players who get high win percentages, I don't see how that's a balance issue and I certainly don't see how that's a Blood Mage balance issue, considering all classes can do 85%+ in 1v1.
Post #: 208
1/14/2015 18:12:57   
RageSoul
Member

quote:

Energy Parasite shouldn't get nerfed, the skill is hardly problematic considering it's easily countered in early-game situations and practically useless in late-game situations -- compare it to skills such as Assimilation, Static Smash, Static Grenade and see how much useful those are in late-game situations ;).


The difference is , those other skills are easier to counter and all have bigger drawbacks : no damage and/or blockable ( Static Smash and Static Grenade ) and weapon restricted ( Assimilation and Static Smash ) . And any non-Focus build that has 800+ Energy can't compete because of Parasite just forcing them to feed the Blood Mage without much drawbacks for them , hence you rarely see "Ultimate-focused builds" .

Plus , you might wanna include Battery Backup as well because it's just free Energy for those said drains ( including Parasite ) in the longer run .
AQW Epic  Post #: 209
1/14/2015 18:19:26   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator
quote:

Probably you guys dont know how to counter parasite then, like a smart CH would do, wait for the 3rd turn, static and heal, and this is how bm cannot get his energy, if you stay bm for a logn time you will get to know, that collect energy from crap is so hard, after one plasma cannon when the enemy got 200 health and you got none and when you use parasite, you get hardly 40 energy while they can heal.


Except CH in itself is already countered by BM's kit because they cannot stop you from gaining the energy you need to use 1 plasma cannon and/or a mark of blood, especially with generator or piston punch. All you have to do is smack a CH really hard for the first 5-ish turns of the battle and they are forced on the defensive where they can't do anything without an IA or a poison bot to set up a reversal. Really, CH is great at shutting down casters and energy-dependent classes but BM is not one of them at all. BM only needs 1 mark of blood or plasma cannon at the beginning of the fight to get going, and they only need a tiny bit of energy to use any other skills like intimidate once they've established their early lead.
Epic  Post #: 210
1/14/2015 18:27:18   
Mother1
Member

@ragesoul

When fighting BM's I wait until the last turn of energy parasite before using battery backup so I can keep my energy before they can use it again.

Plus sometimes I use Battery backup on purpose just so they will waste their rage by using energy parasite instead of a bigger move that could be more lethal. Most BM's I face go right for it instead of using another move that can beat me just so I won't heal and sometimes even that fails them.
Epic  Post #: 211
1/14/2015 20:33:45   
Variation
Member
 

 @RageSoul:
quote:

And any non-Focus build that has 800+ Energy can't compete because of Parasite just forcing them to feed the Blood Mage without much drawbacks for them , hence you rarely see "Ultimate-focused builds" .


Well that is their problem for using high energy builds, which by the way are weak in general even if they focus on their ultimate skill. I've even seen players argue that 1,500mp builds aren't working because of Energy Parasite -- which is an even weaker one. Energy just isn't worth investing in unless you're using a build that is capable of dealing rapid damage with that energy instantly, but even those kinds are risky due to Cyber Hunter EMP based builds.

Another thing is the fact those energy based ultimate builds sacrifice a lot of rage just to even stand a chance of using their ultimate. That rage advantage they give their opponents will generally cost them battle, regardless of whether their opponent was a Blood Mage or not.

Just recently I was against a rank 30+ Poison/Massacre Cyber Hunter (as a Tech Mage) who wasted a turn to generator for energy to Massacre just for me to fish him and make it practically useless. Similar strategy goes for Surgical Strike Mercenaries and Super Charge Tech Mages, all I have to do is use a technology/resistance buff -- now no worries about them burning all that energy they stalled for. Also since it's so late in the match at that time they can't even delay it, at least not versus a player like me. They would die trying to use a suicidal tactic such as that versus a good player.

Energy Parasite is perfectly fine. I'm not even a Blood Mage, I'm not trying to protect this class because it makes me stronger, but rather because it really isn't overpowered. Many of the players I play with, and have for years now could also argue that it isn't overpowered. All of that is based on pure experience. Players have to formulate strategies, they can't insist there is a balance concern with Blood Mages when players such as myself have no trouble countering them.

If a particular class is killing you consistently then either your build design was poorly thought out, or you're simply playing it wrong.
Post #: 212
1/14/2015 20:49:23   
RageSoul
Member

quote:

If a particular class is killing you consistently then either your build design was poorly thought out, or you're simply playing it wrong.

N

Never said i had problems or anything , but whatever .

quote:

Just recently I was against a rank 30+ Poison/Massacre Cyber Hunter (as a Tech Mage) who wasted a turn to generator for energy to Massacre just for me to fish him and make it practically useless. Similar strategy goes for Surgical Strike Mercenaries and Super Charge Tech Mages, all I have to do is use a technology/resistance buff -- now no worries about them burning all that energy they stalled for. Also since it's so late in the match at that time they can't even delay it, at least not versus a player like me. They would die trying to use a suicidal tactic such as that versus a good player.


That's what i said , their weakness is that they can't fight properly due to lack of stats in other areas . High energy investment already has a punishment , why design a skill that counters not only them but also render a stat's investment nearly useless ?

But anyway , their ( BMs ) not release-Infernal Android strong but their still strong and has less drawbacks ( cheaper yet efficient Energy skills in one tree ) .
AQW Epic  Post #: 213
1/14/2015 21:09:25   
Variation
Member
 

 ^That was a general statement intended for anyone who seems to believe balance is the cause of their EpicDuel misfortunes.

Like I pretty much brought up investing semi-heavily+ in energy was pointless(in most cases) even before the creation of Energy Parasite. So the entire argument that players like to bring up over Energy Parasite that it's not allowing players to invest heavily in energy is pretty weak. The design of Energy Parasite was thought out pretty well to be honest, and it shouldn't be changed to buff builds that were already extremely weak prior to the introduction of Energy Parasite.

Also one thing I would like to add that I didn't mention in my first reply that you responded to is in regard to this

quote:

The difference is , those other skills are easier to counter and all have bigger drawbacks...

Rarely in late-game situations when they're needed actually. Blood Mages can never ever, stop me from using my level 1 Field Medic in late-game situations which screws them over hardcore. I make sure I can counter any Energy Parasite + Shards + Piston Punch combination (Pison Punch on Blood Mage is very rare making it even easier on my part and in late-game situations they rarely have their shards saved) which goes to show, versus a good player when they need a good reliable drain in late-game situations to prevent healing/or a powerful skill they're screwed. That is what I meant when I brought up "late-game."
Post #: 214
1/15/2015 2:39:48   
RageSoul
Member

@Variation

But the plus side of Energy investment is that you get to use Actives more often . However , thanks to the P2A update , now Energy is a pain to gain rather than just rewarding like investing on other stats ( apart from Support ) . Energy investment was just as rewarding to those who invest on other stats , Delta and the previous phases proved this ( downside is that they had less counters back then though ) . And after nerfing the attack abilities , Energy Parasite ruined it more so we ended up with hybrid builds that need to favor either STR or 5 Focus , no longer just sticking to others and rely on luck that you score a Block or two. Reworking it to be less of a pain for defensive strategies and more of a pain to just button-mash-to-win would be great.


Sorry for the longer post , but I feel ED no longer had that good feel to fiddle at the stats and strategy became less prominent because it ended up in AE influence and resulted it in button mashing goodness(?) .

< Message edited by RageSoul -- 1/15/2015 2:43:43 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 215
1/15/2015 16:56:01   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 @variation: The problem is that its not just you conqrr and a few others who can get 95%. The problem is that its more than a few, theres at least 40 people I know who managed to get 85%+ with bloodmage and 20 ppl who got 90%+. It doesn't matter how long you played this game, how long you have been playing or how long you play on a daily. Omega is allowing random people to get these high %s. My main is only 1 year old, along with 5 other people I can name off the top of my head right now, and we wreck the boards faster than anyone else and with a higher % of anyone else. Thats just what the games become.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 216
1/15/2015 17:37:39   
Variation
Member
 

 @RageSoul: So do you have any reasonable suggestion(s) to what they do to Energy Parasite to help with the problems the "P2A update" brought? Which I don't believe are major like people are trying to make it considering once again -- high energy was already useless versus good players. The skill is already beyond useless in most late-game situations since it's based on the % of energy your opponent has. Lowering the % conversion would make it even weaker in those situations. Making it drain a constant amount of energy per turn just makes it an advanced version of Frost Shards(because Energy Parasite would also return energy) which is boring for a skill and makes it lose almost all of its uniqueness.

@The berserker killer: Anyone getting 95%+, 90%+, 85%+, whatever % is never a problem. I was just saying there are indeed other reasons besides the infamous balance concerns that players want to believe all good players are exploiting. For me/ConQrR/a few other people I know/even players I don't really know it's our mass experience in this game. When you can achieve as each and every single class you learn that all of them have weaknesses. While some of them aren't as util they're still viable with the proper knowledge of those classes.

For instance, Blood Mage's KEY weakness is the fact that any good player can outplay them in late-game situations unless the Blood Mage gets major benefits from the RNG (and no not damage ranges/defense ranges, but rather Critical Strikes/Deflections/Blocks when the odds are against them for those to occur). Since Energy Parasite is based off of your opponent's current energy the skill in general is very easily to work around in late-game situations. Also you could lure them to do something stupid such as using Energy Parasite on you because you just buffed your energy, and you calculated that the Energy Parasite wouldn't even stop you from doing what you need to do(very easily for me to calculate it in my head, not sure about the rest of the EpicDuel community) -- such as using a skill that delivers a killing blow, or healing, or even forcing them to go defensive. That is just an example, and it's amazing how much Blood Mages are easily lured to Energy Parasite you if you buff your energy. It's like some of them just neglect any type of mathematical reasoning and assume they'll get a massive benefit from using it in that situation, when in reality the person who lured(for a reason) them to use it gets that massive benefit.

Now back to the flaw of Blood Mage and its skill Energy Parasite that players love to deem broken. Even if the Blood Mage has a nice start on you because of Energy Parasite, there exist methods called "outplay" strategies for a reason. If a Blood Mage just cast Energy Parasite on you, you can counter it without much trouble simply by wasting energy and that can be done in a very beneficial way. Such as using a debuff which forces them to either play defensively for a round(gives you a rage advantage which generally screws opponents over in 1v1), take in more damage from you(Blood Mage attempts to play suicidal, and that is never wise), or they try to play more offensively(speculated below). In each and every one of those scenarios the Blood Mage can be outplayed. One I will speculate on is when the Blood Mage attempts to go pure offensive which will put him in a late-game like crisis when he has burned up most of his energy, then allowing me to completely nullify his attempts at getting back energy with my drains -- including the Blood Mages almost instant Energy Parasite attempt. The class isn't nearly as broken as players try to make it appear. The whole win percentage argument is irrelevant because like I've said all classes are capable of high win percentages, especially if a good player is playing as them.

EDIT: Just a footnote since I didn't reference it in the main post. That outplay strategy was just an example of one I love to use versus Blood Mages as a Tech Mage/Bounty Hunter/Cyber Hunter. For the other classes you can play defensively/offensively with a simple energy based approach depending on your specific opponent.

< Message edited by Variation -- 1/15/2015 17:45:50 >
Post #: 217
1/15/2015 19:04:28   
RageSoul
Member

I think I do , so Parasite won't be that ability that only forces you to spend Energy unwillingly :

Since every class is fighting for a niche , why not have Energy Parasite be changed into costing health but greatly increases Energy ( can be scaled with either Character Level or Support , depends ) and grants damage reduction after using it so it synergizes well with Mark of Blood ? Thematically , they were supposed to be more focused on burst or aggressive play style and not an Energy class but since the class has many strong abilities , we won't be having a problem to burst issues.

< Message edited by RageSoul -- 1/15/2015 19:12:20 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 218
1/23/2015 11:31:12   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 The problem, as I have said isn't the fact that 10/15 people have 85+ ratios. The problem is that 40+ people have them. If you haven't noticed there are only 400/500 people who play this game on a regular basis (and that's a generous number). Im guessing there are maybe 150-200 level 40s which indicates that that a third of the population (lvl 40 population) is winning 85% of the time with ease.

Experience plays just a small part when it comes to builds.

P.s. Conqrr utilizes the very EOT (expensive over time) aspects of this game. Im not battering him or anything but that's just one way to win a majority of the time, especially if you have the var/credits to pay for it.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 219
1/23/2015 12:44:45   
Variation
Member
 

 ^I still fail to see how that is a balance concern. All of the "flavor"(what the community likes to call them) builds can be countered with ease, so even if they're getting a good win percentage from the "flavor" builds that is due to the inexperience of the players they're going against -- or players wanting to believe they're losing due to balance problems and don't invest time into viable counters.

EDIT: Also just a note, very few level 40s have an overall 1v1 % of 85%+. Just because they can win that amount on some days means nothing -- it's the overall 1v1 % that is a much better indicator of how skilled a player is. That is of course if the player's 1v1 record isn't saturated with NPCs.

If %s were brought back to the daily leader boards you wouldn't even see much 85%s and the daily leader boards generally includes the hardcore players. Also keep in mind for every winner there is a loser. With this playerbase only soooo much players are getting a daily 85%+ record.

Another thing like I pretty much said, ALL classes can get 85%+ in 1v1. So I don't see how that even belongs in a Blood Mage balance thread.

A thread about win %s would be a much better place to discuss the win % arguments, rather than discussing them in BM balance. Seems like it would be a very interesting thread also.

< Message edited by Variation -- 1/23/2015 13:04:57 >
Post #: 220
1/23/2015 18:52:55   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 ^and I will direct your attention to the first comment I stated in this thread. Anyone who uses this class can get an 85% win ratio because of how much more balanced it is than the other classes. Its on a complete level of its own in a sense. Experienced or not, doesn't really matter that much.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 221
1/23/2015 19:22:07   
Variation
Member
 

 ^Wrong anyone who uses Blood Mage and can play it effectively will get an 85%+ win percentage. Also, experience clearly does matter for Blood Mages to get decent win percentages because if it didn't you wouldn't see any bad ones -- Would you? Like I've already implied many times it doesn't matter what the class is. If there is someone behind that class that can play it effectively he will get a high win % with it. The whole notion that Blood Mage is just superior to everything is ridiculous and based on the "If I lose it's because of balance!" Reasoning. When in reality it's generally because you've been outplayed. All and I mean every single build that the community generally considers a "flavor" build can be countered. However, so many players are just fixated on requesting nerfs instead of being fixated on fixing their strategies.

That is the problem with EpicDuel balance in general. While balance isn't perfect and there are some skills that need to be tweaked(Energy Parasite is not one of them and Blood Commander isn't one either) that isn't the main problem with EpicDuel balance.

< Message edited by Variation -- 1/23/2015 19:41:39 >
Post #: 222
1/23/2015 19:40:58   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 No offense but +6 cores and rank 60+ tends to do that for a player.

And the good blood mages when this class was fotm? Plisk, rockstar, urfear, krepax, darknesslord, matt 1000, ionut, sr. Heitor, sr. Poseidon, ultrathor, ghost god, conqrr, Ruthless ninja(before he was banned and when he went bm after bh)...i can go on and on to about 25-30 players off the top of my head (40 if sit and think) who are blatantly unbeatable if you told them to put on a bloodmage build and actually try without caring about speed. I'm not pulling this "85%" number out of nowhere... I've seen this. I've seen the boards and I'm alerting a problem. That problem being exactly what this conversation was initially about: Parasite taking too much energy.

Back on topic: Parasite is taking too much energy. Its as plain and simple as that
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 223
1/23/2015 19:58:08   
Variation
Member
 

 ^So what is the argument gonna be for when +6 cores and legendary mode didn't exist? I for instance already had a 95%+ 1v1 % and 90%+ 2v2 % before those cores/Legendary Mode even existed -- so nope that doesn't in anyway influence my argument on playing classes effectively.

Also the strongest Blood Mage Omega build ever created and that is still effective was created by me. The build that ConQrR used on his alt and got a 95.7% on 400+ wins. I was undefeated on that build far after 200 consecutive 1v1 wins. Also if that's your list for good Blood Mages you should really reconsider how you judge someone who can play a class effectively. That is considering I can only see 3 players on it that that could put up a good fight against an experienced player and not the sheep of EpicDuel.

Also where is your reasoning behind your opinion that it is taking too much energy? If you sit there and do nothing about being parasited then you're just doing the Blood Mage a favor, however I don't see why that is an issue. Outplay strategies exist for a reason, if players don't want to use them that's their issue. There are also build issues such as players using high energy builds and wanting to believe Energy Parasite is the only reason why those builds don't work. When in reality high energy builds in general are weak due to the loss of stats that could've been placed in more beneficial stats.
Post #: 224
1/23/2015 20:09:16   
The Jop
Member

Parasite takes too much energy but moves that take over 300 energy immediately don't? The problem with parasite is not that it takes a lot of energy, it's that it lasts for 3 turns.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 225
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