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You definition of "Balance"

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4/15/2014 12:50:56   
Cyber Dream
Member

Im noticing that almost in every update, every class is getting more and more like each other. Example, each class can gain and drain mana. This isn't what I mean when I talk about balance. My definition of balance in ED is making each class capable of beating each other....not making everything the same. What's your definition of balance? Making every class the same?

_____________________________
AQW Epic  Post #: 1
4/15/2014 12:54:23   
Mother1
Member

@ cyber dream

off topic

That is what happens when people complain about their classes weaknesses and other's strengths wanting that for this class without losing their own strengths.

On topic

My idea of balance would be having the classes as different as possible, with individual strength's and weaknesses but still being able to compete with one another.
Epic  Post #: 2
4/15/2014 13:34:06   
ambien
Member

you are joking right. balance can and will never come back to epic duel. when they change the whole game play of ed with omega it was done for.

how can you bring back balance any more when the damage is in sane when stats mean nothing in compared for damage being able to be block when it is all a luck based system now.

l would like to know whos ideal it was really for the omegas format, not the players . if they really thought it out, it seems it was a random thing they did to keep people who did not want to spend varium to keep them happy , an still play the game.

people would always play ed by the old rules, but since they redid the game , game play is way down worst then before. how many old players are playing , l will tell you a handful play and they play for power hour and and daily mission for token if that. so you want to talk about balance well balance will never come to epic duel it cannot under the omega system.
we have seen them try to do it under this gaming system and things are not getting better are they. you can answer that question for your selv . \

every time they try a balance wow like what did they do, it got worst then before . like l said balance ,it is like throwing rocks at moon and hoping you hit, it never will happen.

unless they redo the whole system of play start over do something, balance patches is like putting a bandage on problem an hoping it will go away. it will not.

balance---to offset or counteract,to be equal or in proportion to,to fine or take an intermediate position; compromise. now balance what it says here ed isnt even close to what balance is in epic duel.

those are the facts. nerfs buffs. trying to balance ed do not fit what balance means.

< Message edited by ambien -- 4/15/2014 14:32:05 >
Post #: 3
4/15/2014 14:08:10   
.Sir Lazarus.
Member

Balance is preety much ok now. If you guys spend that time ,what you spend complaining here ,on figuring out the best build for your class you would kill everyone around you.

Once i came back to epic duel I didnt see one TLM from level 37 and up... Everybody said that it was the weakest class. Well, with the supposed weakest class i made level 40 rank 15 by now and im not even trying.

Try...
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 4
4/15/2014 15:34:04   
Cyber Dream
Member

quote:

Balance is preety much ok now


You're joking right?

quote:

If you guys spend that time ,what you spend complaining here ,on figuring out the best build for your class you would kill everyone around you.

Try being a Merc and saying that....

I didn't make this discussion to talk about how poorly balance is or what class is the weakest or strongest. I made it to find out what the term "balance" means to you when referring to ED.
AQW Epic  Post #: 5
4/15/2014 16:09:58   
ambien
Member

ok balance cyber dream here is 1 type of balance for you. l will take a weapon balance remb you are talking about balance here. as you see 0ne sword called celtic. now the core is a 7% bonus chance to connect with each strike. the core is called ( lucky strike ) witch comes with the sword for seasonal rare. now which makes me mad in balance since they make a core called lucky strike which gives a 2% chance same type of core right . in fairness for balance why not have the same % chance as the celtic has. same lucky strike core . also when the celtic came out as a seasonal rare the staffs, and clubs had only a 2% chance on the core for it remb they are a seasonal rare as the well as the sword is . fair balance ( NO ) the seasonal rare core is not the same that is what ed calls balance right. that is just 1 type of what ed calls balance.


balance---to offset or counteract,to be equal or in proportion to,to fine or take an intermediate position; compromise. now balance what it says here ( ed isnt even close to what balance is in epic duel. ) l do not know what ed deves call balance but they seem to have missed the boat here.



< Message edited by ambien -- 4/15/2014 16:12:48 >
Post #: 6
4/15/2014 17:35:37   
Goony
Constructive!


 I agree with Sir Lazarus here, balance is close to being the best it's ever been in the game! I haven't been playing as much as him, but I am seeing all classes being used, with numerous varieties of each class and almost every build has a counter. There is no "1 build that rules all"

I am a rank one legend merc and do pretty well, the > +10 legend players are pretty hard for me to beat and the > +30 are almost impossible. But, that's the game at the moment and the matching in 1v1 is pretty good as I'd play another legend 80% of the time!

What I think is the issue that players are complaining about in general with these types of threads is that they can't get free wins anymore, that's the biggest change in the game! It's tough, you have to play smart and expect to get beaten a lot at times. Have fun and post in balance if you have some ideas to create even better balance!

Edit: If I was going to make 1 point about balance, it would be in relation to the general lack of use of the support stat and to rectify it would need to be tied into rage. I believe the players with little support and high strength shouldn't be able to rage as quickly as they do!





< Message edited by Goony -- 4/15/2014 17:47:27 >

_____________________________

In Epic Duel,
success is not final,
failure is not fatal
and it is the courage to continue that counts!
Epic  Post #: 7
4/15/2014 20:38:21   
kaiseryeux21
Member

@goony
quote:

There is no "1 build that rules all"
*cough strength bloodmage *cough

im a rank 3 tm and im using a dex stun overload build, and even if i blocked their attacks 3-4 times, i still end up loosing because block stacks with rage and you can't expect to block 6-7 times every battle. And there's a weapon called celtic cleaver which adds 7% chance to hit. just saying.

accept it or not, strength is still the most dominant stat we have because as many others say, even with ZERO energy, you can still hit pretty hard using strike. And legendary stat just makes it worst. Rank 33 vs Rank 3?? I don't really appreciate getting free wins, but i also don't want to give free wins to higher rank players. just saying.



< Message edited by kaiseryeux21 -- 4/15/2014 20:44:36 >
DF Epic  Post #: 8
4/15/2014 21:30:38   
edwardvulture
Member

"all classes being used" is an invalid point if there are arguably only 2 builds that work at all(excluding specialty abuse builds such as lowdex ch or dex TM). 5 focus and spike. All classes are becoming the same more than ever. If balance was alright or close to being perfected, you would not see server count at an historic post-alpha low. This game, as of right now, takes less skill than ever and there is almost no room for creative build making anymore. I honestly do not understand how people could grind to level 40 with this type of gameplay. Banal builds and banal strategy. There is really no counter to spike builds and 5 focus builds.

The dex bh is dead, the support tm is dead, tank tlm is dead, adrenaline rush and shadow arts are completely unused. If this, in your head is good balance, then you must be in denial.

What....free wins? It is true that the highest win rate is lower than ever but that can be attributed to a lack of variety.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 9
4/15/2014 21:51:22   
Dual Thrusters
Member

quote:

numerous varieties of each class and almost every build has a counter.


Each class has like....2 builds
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 10
4/16/2014 1:35:42   
.Sir Lazarus.
Member

@kaiseryeux21

You are not using stun overload build you are using something that is called heal loop build cause guys with your build heal 4-5 times every battle, plus the armor core heal... That is called heal loop... Nothing else

btw- i do agree that the biggest problem is not using support.

@ambien

what you want is to get free celtic cleaver with every sword you buy... That would be a balance problem. If you want 7 % with your mace or staff or something, well, you cant get it cause that would be crazy overused. The same thing is done with azreal. More % core with every sesonal rare and that is ok. Why would it be called rare than?

< Message edited by .Sir Lazarus. -- 4/16/2014 1:40:10 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 11
4/16/2014 2:24:14   
kaiseryeux21
Member

@lazarus, very bad guess about my build. dont get me wrong but i have beaten u several times using dex abuse build. And Heal looping for mages will not really work this days because str abusing players will just simply drain ur hp before you can heal again.
DF Epic  Post #: 12
4/16/2014 3:12:56   
Goony
Constructive!


 @kaiseryeux21 I'm a 5 focus Merc with 1200hp and a leaning towards str and dex... I have no worries with level 40 BM ranked <+10. Intimidate takes away their BL and damage, and surgical strike takes away their rage. I wouldn't say that was a build that ruled all by a long shot :/

The ranks were introduced to encourage players to play more and give them an incentive, at some stage they will all reach the cap or be slowed down by the exp scaling to reach higher ranks... I don't really have too much of an issue with them, but the bonuses are perhaps a bit high, + 4 aux damage is the equivalent to 24 support stats >45 support... And the same goes for strength when using high str builds, stat wise the scaling slows the gain down, but with legend ranks it just stacks regardless. But the option is there for all to play hard and get a high rank to have an advantage in battles :) I wish I was level 20 at the moment :p

quote:

"all classes being used" is an invalid point if there are arguably only 2 builds that work at all(excluding speciality abuse builds such as low dex ch or dex TM). 5 focus and spike


Why is it invalid? This thread is about balance? Is class balance not relevant? Focus and strength are not the only builds, as you mentioned there are str/support CH massacre builds *shakes fist at comicalbiker* There are also varieties of poison builds in BH, CH and TIM... There are dex builds with BM and TM... There are workable tech builds for merc and TM that use 4 focus as well as the general 5 focus builds using tech... I've seen so many different builds since energy was nerfed and where I once never had to check an opponents stats I now almost skip turns looking for weaknesses and opportunities ;)

You can pick holes in the balance for all I care and there are a group of players who will always say that the game is not balanced. I have been guilty of that at times and it's because everyone likes to win. Oh well, just go and play AQW instead :)



< Message edited by Goony -- 4/16/2014 3:15:53 >
Epic  Post #: 13
4/16/2014 4:28:04   
Therril Oreb
Legendary AdventureGuide!


 I'd to remind everyone what the topic is of this thread. This is not a balance discussion thread, those discussions belong in Epicduel Balance.
This is discussing what balance means to everyone, not whether or not if there is balance. So keep the Balance discussion itself for the balance board and discuss what balance means to you here.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 14
4/16/2014 4:35:26   
RageSoul
Member

quote:

What's your definition of balance?

Balance is where everything has the same amount of limits ( doesn't have to be the same ones ) and that the riskier the builds is , the higher the reward it gives , depending on experience / practice .
AQW Epic  Post #: 15
4/16/2014 7:45:58   
edwardvulture
Member

Balance to me is when build choice and strategy is involved instead of mindlessly grinding for wins. It is when the 0 focus build(that doesn't abuse hp and str) stands a chance against the 5 bonus build. It is when there are choices to be made that may or may not be countered depending on the opponent's build and strategy. It is when investing in energy is not just for builds that use their ultimates. It is when investing in skill points and energy are just as effective a trade off than solely spamming stats. It is balanced when there are many build options within a class. It is balanced when there is a direct counter to the 5 focus and spike build. It is when there are rock, paper, scissor builds with in and out of class selections. To me, most of all, balance is about the ability to choose and make descisions and have options. Right now, I feel limited and constrained and unable to find creative builds that challenge the status quo and I personally have been able to do that for every phase except most of Omega. But then again, I have to agree that the playing field for no varium/varium is balanced(leveled) as it ever was.
I also feel that classes are too much the same and that makes class selection less meanningful.

Notice I am not using any logical arguments here, my response is completely subjective.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 16
4/16/2014 14:51:20   
EpicIsEpic
Member

Imo balance is when EVERY ONE has 50/50% chance of winning
Post #: 17
4/16/2014 16:30:05   
Wootz
Member

Balance to would be when all classes would have their strenghts and weaknesses. In a way of a triangural form. Mercenaries can beat Hunters a bit easily, while they'd have a harder time beating Mages; Hunters would easily beat Mages, but suffer againts Mercenaries: and Mages more proficently conquer over Mercenaries, while having harder battles with the Hunters.
AQW Epic  Post #: 18
4/17/2014 2:01:19   
Crovile V2
Member

lol... Back on in years and ppl are still at this Balance issue. A well, these are the only things I know of balance:

1. Every class to have a 50/50 chance against the remainder classes. And my friends, even if somehow we were to achieve this feat, it's only a matter of time before it falls off. Here in ED, every duelist has but 1 aim - to be the best. And to do that you will have to try to win every single match. And to do that, each one of us will use builds that will get us there. Hence, everyone of us will always try to un-balance the system itself.

2. Balance can happen only between equals or the ones belonging to the same category. In a group, it just won't exist. Every one will aim to dominate the other.

So, just forget about balance. It's something that doesn't exist in a PvP world like ED. Or as a matter of fact, it doesn't really exist anywhere. Just focus on your builds that can be configured now. Somehow you will find a way. :)

_____________________________

Hunt Or Be Hunted !
Post #: 19
4/17/2014 2:14:34   
kaiseryeux21
Member

@above, i guess you're right. Like peace, balance is an elusive thing here in ED. Perhaps we just have to deal with it.
DF Epic  Post #: 20
4/17/2014 2:47:15   
RageSoul
Member

@Crovile 2
So i guess totally removing losses ( plus total battles done to prevent calculations ) on all modes would remove this feel of weakness then.

Edit : added "remove"

< Message edited by RageSoul -- 4/17/2014 3:39:26 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 21
4/17/2014 3:14:56   
overdead
Member

Fair play is when squirtle has an advantage in fighting charmander, charmander to bulbasaur and bulbasaur to squirtle, and you are free to choose which you would like to have.

Balance is when it's not impossible for the disadvantaged to beat the other. Does ED have balance? Yes. Variety, not much.
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 22
4/17/2014 3:55:52   
Crovile V2
Member

@ Overdead:

Hahaha... That indeed is a scenario where the system overall is balanced. But then again, Charmander won't like been beaten by Squirtle over and over again. So he'll produce a new skill set by means of which he can win against Squirtle and still maintain his dominance over Bulbasaur. And when that happens, that balance will break and Charmander will be termed as OP. Now it's upto Squirtle and Bulbasaur as to how they counter attack Charmander 'coz if Charmander was able to do it, then so can Bulbasaur and Squirtle. Thus, every class, every player will try to un-balance this system. It's just a question of who can do this more effectively and what will the others do? :D
Post #: 23
4/18/2014 2:17:23   
Pemberton
Member
 

 Right now balance is good for classes. But i think support must be improved a little bit.
Post #: 24
5/7/2014 11:57:37   
Archlord Raistlin
Member
 

 Balance is not a 50/50 coin toss...that is dumb luck, which is where we seem to be at :/
Fighting against dumb luck is as someone said earlier...banal.

Balance is about making choices. You could have a well-rounded build that would hold
up well against "most" opponents. ED wanted more balanced builds, so they introduced
focus to encourage that. You could also spam a stat/skill, but in order to do that, you
would have to "sacrifice" something and leave yourself open to certain other builds. Mercs
could spam support and artillary, but would have to sacrifice their defenses to do this, etc...

Everyone should have basic skills needed in a battle, but they don't all need to be equal.
Each class can have a strength as well as a weakness that can be exploited. Players can
decide if they exploit their strength or cover their weakness, etc...

It used to be a simple as this...mercs were good at physical attacks, mages were good at
energy attacks, and hunters were in between. That's a strong basis for balance with
everyone having choices and sacrifice. As the game has grown more complex, it seems
like there are fewer successful options available and a lot less sacrifice...
Post #: 25
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