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Focus removal (at least on robot damage...)

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8/17/2014 3:58:01   
edwardvulture
Member

Focus does not really help balance in any way. Some might argue that this is the only dominant build besides str/dex strike/minimal skills build, but is getting 45+ on every stat helping variety at all? Should the focus system even exist if focus levels 1-4 are irrelevant in high levels? Most builds right now swing at two extremes, 0 focus or 5 focus because there is no point in getting focus from levels 1-4. Putting all your stats above or at 45 is one of the biggest things anyone could do to limit their build choices. As of right now, the only incentive to have focus is for robot damage, most notably the Infernal Android.
Focus is really a defunct band-aid fix to players spamming stats in Beta.

If robots do not scale on focus, what could they possibly scale on? Well, support is one of the most uninvested stats ever. If robots scaled on tech and support instead of focus and tech, a come back in the long dead tech/support builds could come. tech/support could be the counter to str/dex. If str/dex loses its dominance, think of what could be done for the variety in epicduel.


Note: i'm currently ignoring the discussion of HP vs EP investment, but that is another matter.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 1
8/17/2014 5:41:27   
Remorse
Member

Supported,

Because I literally made the exact same suggestion many times,

It's nice to know people feel the same way as me anyway :)



I also agree with the reasoning you mentioned, and just to add to it, before people get defensive and say focus builds are weak now, don't compare it to the STR builds those are something that has to be dealt with separately , for variety to improve vastly focus needs to be removed.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 8/17/2014 5:43:03 >
Epic  Post #: 2
8/17/2014 10:45:00   
suboto
Member

disagree unless support gets a buff in its bonuses
Epic  Post #: 3
8/17/2014 11:30:06   
Mother1
Member

Support would need more of a buff before this concept would even be feasible. Why because even with this concept it does little to nothing to fix the imbalance with stats. Plus even with this concepts robots damage will be taking a major nerf seeing as how it is now 200 damage can be added and by removing focus robots will lose that power.

If this is to go into play robots all robot damage wise would need a buff to be able to compete with other things. When focus was last nerfed Rabble buffed robot damage to compensate for the nerf.

Epic  Post #: 4
8/17/2014 11:40:42   
Remorse
Member

^ Firstly nothing about nerfing damage was mentioned, so don't just assume it,


Secondly robots were intended to be improved by a combination of tech AND SUPPORT which would probably give it the sufficient buff it needs.



When someone says they want to remove focus it is implied that damage lost from focus would be transferred into the stats it improves with or the base damage or both.



Overall end effects are:

Robots improve with tech and support ( a combination of both 50/50 both ways) imagine it being like 1 robot damage per 8 tech/support but because it comes from both sources it is the same as something that improves with a single stat every 4th investment.

And robot damage would equal around the same as a 5 focus build now if someone had the same tech and support as someone with 5 focus.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 8/17/2014 11:46:58 >
Epic  Post #: 5
8/17/2014 11:51:22   
Mother1
Member

@ Remorse

If it is not mentioned in the post itself I am free to assume all I want until it is said otherwise. When making an Idea you need to bring up all points that could cause people to doubt otherwise you will get assumptions like the point you are shooting down.

He posted no evidence of the bonus focus gave being transferred to these stats that I saw, and from the last focus nerf as I pointed out robot damage got buff while focus damage was nerfed.

Also you keep forgetting I am not from beta like you I am from delta, and even with reading old design notes that doesn't equal I am from beta. So please don't get on me for not knowing something like that
Epic  Post #: 6
8/17/2014 12:25:02   
Remorse
Member

^ Sorry if it seemed like I was going on you mother, that was not the case at all.


I was just trying to prove to you that sometimes we should assume thing which are obvious, which in this case the damage transfer is reasonably obvious.


Epic  Post #: 7
8/17/2014 12:43:51   
Mother1
Member

@ remorse

no offense to you but with the way this game has been going you can never assume things that aren't said. If we were of all one mind that is one thing, but everyone thinks differently. Where you might have gotten it due to having some knowledge others don't.

Let's say the staff looked at this and said "Ok this might work let's put it into the game." However, they didn't get the that part just like I didn't. It would be put into the game the wrong way like many suggestions the players have suggested in the past have causing problems.

This is why Idea's need to be 100% clear and not leave things to assumptions. Kind of like with the other thread I made. You posted your concerns due to it not being clear, and I cleared them up for you.
Epic  Post #: 8
8/17/2014 12:47:08   
Remorse
Member

^ I agree,

Which is why I try make my posts like that,

In this case I thought I better help Edward out in defending his topic because I have said the exact same idea before.


Epic  Post #: 9
8/17/2014 15:06:49   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 If you remove focus, they would HAVE to scale with support because the only currently viable support builds are the 5 focus-hybrid ones. Support lacks almost any form of dealing damage aside from the occasional artillery strike or malfunction, so robot damage scaling with support would be a must-have to bring back more build variety.
Epic  Post #: 10
8/18/2014 12:39:13   
edwardvulture
Member

So, I'm not big on getting to specific numbers, but I'm thinking if focus got removed, support and tech would scale robot damage 1.25-1.5 times faster than strength.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 11
8/21/2014 1:47:08   
ValkyrieKnight
Member

I has always hated focus, that is all.
AQW Epic  Post #: 12
8/21/2014 11:41:25   
I Underlord I
Member

If anything, the issue is Technology; robot damage should rely solely on Focus (with an appropriate buff to compensate) and base damage.

Regardless of whether one likes Focus, it effectively prevents stat abuse and forces the player wanting the higher levels to have a relatively balanced character. In addition, it forces sacrifice: low stats in general in favor of HP (and/or EP), or vice versa, which in itself prevents the remainder of possible stat abuse as a whole.

Also keep in mind that Focus only affects Robot damage and forces players into a minimum requirement, which cannot be in any way bad. If you decide to abuse a stat instead (with the exception of Technology), you automatically and equitably lack robot damage; however, you can still use most effect robot specials with little or no loss of power.

As for Focus levels 1-4, the damage gain is not sufficient to allow a robot to even be on par with many people's primary and secondary damage, and as such the focal concern is once again Strength.

_____________________________

"Memories and thoughts age, just as people do. But certain thoughts can never age, and certain memories can never fade."
~ Haruki Murakami, The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle
AQ  Post #: 13
8/21/2014 13:03:12   
edwardvulture
Member

Focus IS stat abuse. Lining up your stats to 45 does nothing for the variety or the good of this game. There is a fine line between stat abuse and creativity, and focus builds are on the side of stat abuse. You're implying all non-focus builds abuse stats. There is almost no sacrifice with 5 bonus now because we get to move stats wherever we want. Focus is one of the dominant builds right now, if we take it out, other builds are sure to fill the void. And logically, support and technology should be the sole stats that robots scale on. Your physical strength has nothing to do with robot prowess, and dexterity should not do anything for robots when there is already a technology stat. But ofc, this is just a small problem in the bigger picture of this game not having enough builds or skills or class distintions to appeal a wider audience and expand(this sentence is purely opinionated).
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 14
8/21/2014 13:04:13   
suboto
Member

Not support As rather there be a focus 6 since we are at the point more stats are ingame
Focus 1: 40dmg
focus 2:80dmg
focus 3: 120dmg
focus 4:180dmg
focus 5:220dmg
Robots 150~190 base dmg
Primary sword is 360dmg base at lvl40 base alone is equality to a robot at focus 4 to 5. so thats 40stats in all or 45 in stats at all just to equal the base dmg of a sword
Thats 100 free stats just to make focus 5 leaveing just 56 to freely use.
now if u were to use that 100free stats in str thats 619dmg so more into the math thats
Sword at lvl40 same stat amount as a focus 5 only makes:
sword: 619dmg
Robot: 522dmg if base dmg is 150 on robot
Robot: 562dmg if base dmg is 190 on robot
Different sword unlimited nonstop attacks
Robots 3turn cooldown
Str builds tend to have more dex then focus builds making them even stronger on the strike side cause no blocks mostlikely when strikeing
Robot builds tend to have more def/res but 100less or more against primary sword dmg but have a better chance of deflecting
As you can see robot builds are far more balanced then str builds as str build uses 3stats hp/str/dex all 3 are channel to abuse in the favor of a nonstop kill machine
Robot builds focus on str/dex/tech/support and some focus on hp.
Add the ranks to mix 659dmg sword
562dmg robot at 150 base
602dmg robot at 190 base
Robots slightly lack in power




< Message edited by suboto -- 8/21/2014 13:24:43 >
Epic  Post #: 15
8/21/2014 13:17:21   
edwardvulture
Member

When I said "good of the game", I take that back, focus actually benefits people who are unable to make creative builds.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 16
8/21/2014 13:26:02   
Mother1
Member

@ Edwardvulture

No offense to you or this idea, but how many times have we heard people say If we Nerf/Remove this, than Variety will come back only for people to just go to the next abusive thing and copy that instead of being diverse like many others thought would happen?

While I am not saying that it may be the case here, many people have said what you said in the past, and when the staff did do something they only jumped to the next flavor build. So it leave me kind of skeptical to be honest.
Epic  Post #: 17
8/21/2014 13:27:49   
I Underlord I
Member

quote:

edwardvulture wrote:

Focus IS stat abuse. Lining up your stats to 45 does nothing for the variety or the good of this game. There is a fine line between stat abuse and creativity, and focus builds are on the side of stat abuse. You're implying all non-focus builds abuse stats. There is almost no sacrifice with 5 bonus now because we get to move stats wherever we want. Focus is one of the dominant builds right now, if we take it out, other builds are sure to fill the void. And logically, support and technology should be the sole stats that robots scale on. Your physical strength has nothing to do with robot prowess, and dexterity should not do anything for robots when there is already a technology stat. But ofc, this is just a small problem in the bigger picture of this game not having enough builds or skills or class distintions to appeal a wider audience and expand(this sentence is purely opinionated).

Focus is, by its very nature, the prevention of stat abuse. It may restrict creativity to some level, but at level 35 and above (especially with the advent of Legendary ranks), one is free to tweak their build after achieving 45 in the four non-vitals stats, to the extent that a parallel often cannot even be drawn between two given builds in the same class save for the existence of focus.

Nor is Focus a requirement; in fact, while it should logically be needed to utilize robots, which in turn should be more powerful than other weapons, it is unnecessary in the current state of the game (especially if you abuse Technology). Your argument is that one can achieve five Focus and abuse stats; this is fundamentally incorrect. If you look at Focus builds, they always sacrifice at least one of the four "power" stats if they want to make excessive use of another, and as such most remain relatively balanced even after fulfilling requirements (jack of all trades, master of none). This is the intent of Focus.
Of course, we have Legendary players with high primary/sidearm as well as robot damage, but the reason is the broken Legendary ranks.

In addition, I am in no way implying that all non-Focus builds abuse a single stat; however, the lack of Focus at higher levels immediately implicates the abuse of certain stats in favoring them over others, be it one, two, or even three.

As for logic, balance is applicable before a concept that already isn't present in the game. Besides, the logic of Focus is in its very name: a focus gained from balancing one's power, enabling them to do additional robot damage.

Regarding your last sentence, I completely agree, of course.

< Message edited by I Underlord I -- 8/21/2014 13:28:16 >
AQ  Post #: 18
8/21/2014 13:34:40   
edwardvulture
Member

^I agree with most of it, but focus builds are well-rounded and they really do not have a weakness like other stat abuse builds(usually) do.

@M1, i do agree with your skepticism, but focus builds have been dominant for several years now.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 19
8/21/2014 13:49:12   
suboto
Member

We do have weakness
Defense this tends to be lower then res
unable to keep up with the block rate of a str build
over 100armor less then a str build dmg spam
skills that could cut through a armor even with both high as possible would be
Fire scythe
bludge
frenzy
posion
cheap shot
bunker
plasma cannon
Maul
Super charge
Malfunction
smoke
Weapon cores
omega debuff
Robots that can cut through
Abyss robot
posion robot
Blood hawk


< Message edited by suboto -- 8/21/2014 13:55:07 >
Epic  Post #: 20
8/21/2014 13:49:54   
Bagofbricks
Member

Focus builds don't have a weakness like other builds? That is ridiculous. Focus builds have a very big weakness in the fact that they don't excel in any of the stats. A lvl 5 focus won't give you the best defense, the best str, or the best support. And focus pretty much only benefits robots, so removing it would be silly.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 21
8/21/2014 13:53:58   
Mother1
Member

@ Edwardvulture

The game itself is still broken.

there are many things that need fixing.

Rage
Block, deflection
Stat progression

The list goes on.

How do you expect people to be diverse if stats themselves aren't even balanced? For example HP, Strength, and Dex are far more rewarding to invest into than Support and Tech. We have more people running around with base support than we have people using focus builds.

When the stats themselves aren't balance variety also takes a hit. When you have outside factors besides the stats favoring other stats (Rage favoring strength is a good example) than variety also takes a hit.

To be honest if we want variety back, we need to balance the stats so people will want to invest them outside of focus.

Epic  Post #: 22
8/21/2014 13:56:19   
Ranloth
Banned


 Underlord, ya' feel me. XD Basically my stand on Focus also. There was that one time I've suggested more emphasis on Focus for Robots, and less from Tech, to stop abuse of effects that rely on Bot damage and Tech abuse - namely Casters and Botanical Hazard, many blue moons ago.
AQ Epic  Post #: 23
8/21/2014 13:57:00   
suboto
Member

I myself use 45+14support instead of 45+14strength as i like being a outcast to the spam build.
I would like to see more robots improveing with
support for a life support robot



< Message edited by suboto -- 8/21/2014 13:59:02 >
Epic  Post #: 24
8/21/2014 14:09:58   
I Underlord I
Member

Nice to know we are of the same opinion, Trans. :-)

Ah, yes; I recall when the poison-spam caster mages reigned over us. It is actually a comparatively viable build, but thankfully Tech Mages inclined to abuse a stat now tend to maximize Dexterity.

Nonetheless, your point remains excellent and stands even now. Even if Technology were to retain its effect on Robot Damage, it should be nerfed and Focus accordingly buffed, to ensure that sheer damage output as far as robots (and, of course, use of scaling effects) are only feasible where the system created for that sole purpose is actually followed.

Also, this is off-topic, but my belated congratulations on your position. :)
AQ  Post #: 25
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