RE: Balancing Katherax: make its normal attack blockable


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RE: Balancing Katherax: make its normal attack blockable

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11/23/2014 18:15:32

Satafou
Member

A player with an effective strength build will have more dex than a 5 focus player, even if that 5 focus player invests more points into dex. As a result of this if the Katherax Robot was made blockable it would give strength builds a slight buff seeing as they have a higher block % than 5 focus players. Strength builds can strike every turn and deal moderate damage at the very minimum. The Katherax Robot deals high damage, however it is only once every 4 turns, because of this moderate damage dealt by strength builds over every turn adds up to a more consistent damage output. Not to mention it's only really weakens strength builds for 2 turns seeing as you have a gun which is unaffected by it. You could also heal/gen or steal energy on the 2nd turn and then hawk/abyss on the 3rd turn, enabling you to keep the battle in your favor. Also the animation for the Katherax Robot is a charged up long ranged attack. It is only logical that this attack is delectable rather than blockable. People are probably only annoyed at the fact this robot is deflectable and has a strong special because they can't obtain it without varium and that it arguably is stronger than infernal android. However like all varium exclusive items now, it will return within a year.

< Message edited by Satafou -- 11/23/2014 18:24:17 >

Post #: 26

11/23/2014 23:44:55

kittycat
Member

Strength has been a prevalent build recently, and Katherax's high base damage and unique special helps offset the strength prowess. If made blockable, it can be construed as a buff because Strength builds have more blocking capability. The special only takes away the ability to inflict primary damage, so it isn't that bad.

Post #: 27

11/24/2014 1:07:17

Silver Sky Magician
Member

The arguments in this thread against the suggested balance boil down to

1) Animation. This is not a valid reason for not balancing something. Can you imagine if the devs refused to balance varium items against non-varium items because varium items look better and therefore logically should be stronger?

2) Bots are used once every 4 turns, and are thus not as strong as strength builds. Now, why is a single bot being balanced against an entire build? It's not like 5 focus builds use their bot and strike for three turns. They have a vast plethora of options. This thread isn't about balancing 5 focus builds against strength builds. This thread is about balancing Katherax against other bots. I'm suggesting that not only do we make Katherax's normal attack blockable, we should make all bots' normal attacks blockable to make bots more consistent with other weapon types. Strength builds have nothing to do with this.

3) Making Katherax's normal attack blockable will buff strength builds (and make them overpowered?). If such a minor nerf to Katherax is enough to unbalance the metagame, then both strength builds and Katherax are overpowered by definition. And both need to be balanced.

4) Making bots blockable on normal attack will nerf 5 focus builds too much. No, it will not. Just shift 10 stat points from tech to dex if you care so much. Furthermore, by this logic, we should make support the damage and accuracy stat for auxes so support builds will become more viable.

5) This is just a complaint because you don't have Katherax. Well, if I have to have Katherax, then that's obviously a balance problem in itself.

I've been a user of blockable bots since bots existed, and strength builds blocking bots have never been a problem for me. In fact, strength builds blocking anything have never been a problem for me.

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 11/24/2014 1:10:53 >

Post #: 28

11/24/2014 1:56:38

Mother1
Member

@ SSM

I use a focus 5 build myself and I can tell you from experience when facing strength builds if I had to choose between using my robot and my aux I choose my aux over my robot. This not because my aux is more powerful cause it isn't, but for the fact that I am less likely to get a negative luck factor on me. Why because as everyone has been pointing out Strength builds also spam dex to they can

A) Connect
B) Block more

Also as I posted earlier if you saw the link The real reason they made so many blockable robots from the start was because they couldn't make deflectable range attacks with the robots at first. They lacked the technology in flash. Remember the staff themselves said we aren't going backwards but forward and trying to make all robots normal attacks blockable like it was from the start due to a lack of ability to make ranged attacks would be just that going backwards.

This very bot was designed to counter strength builds and as pointed out this balance change would be extremely counter protective due to strength builds having higher block chance than focus builds due to their dex spam.

Epic	Post #: 29

11/24/2014 2:14:04

Silver Sky Magician
Member

^

No, Katherax's special was designed to counter strength builds. No one said anything about the bot's normal attack. Just like how Botanical Hazard's special was designed to counter tank builds, not its normal attack. Or how Infernal Android's special was designed to be a nuke, not the entire bot. Etc., etc.

Plus, as I've said, if accuracy is so important, just shift some stats around and don't throw all your spare stat points into tech, which is pretty much how 95% of level 40 BMs are now playing.

And I don't see the relevance of the devs fixing their animation problem. If every bot was deflectable instead of blockable, every 5 focus build would be tech spam. That would reduce diversity even further.

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 11/24/2014 2:23:46 >

Post #: 30

11/24/2014 3:05:54

Satafou
Member

Silver as I've already stated in my previous post "A player with an effective strength build will have more dex than a 5 focus player, even if that 5 focus player invests more points into dex." This bots sole purpose was to counter strength builds, if you were to have a 5 focus 1vs1 battle against a player with infernal android, the infernal android player would win. This proves that this robot isn't as broken as you claim it to be. The whole point of it being deflectable is firstly, because it's animation implies that. It would make no sense if the robot was blockable, who blocks a charged up long range attack? Secondly it helps the actual 5 focus user, strength builds do have more dex than a 5 focus player, raging bot with a blockable bot is just too dam risky, they can block 300-400 dmg it's completely game changing.

Post #: 31

11/24/2014 3:58:33

King Bling
Member

Are you really serious, Satafou???

A kartherax user and an infernal user, obviously the kartherax user wins, you are probably the worst player of all time, if you think the infernal player wins always, and I DONT SAY MAKE THE NORMAL BLOCKABLE JUST MAKE THE BASE DAMAGE LOWER, LIKE 170 TO BALANCE IT OUT AMOUNG ALL THE BOTS, even the lionhart bot, it is pretty useless due to it having its normal being blockable, no one uses it, I know i am against making bots blockable as well, but 190 base damage with sure a golden core is too much, making it 170 wouldnt harm the balance or buff the strength user would it?? Plus there are people without this bot who win all the strength abusers, no doubt its the only debuff for the strength abusers.

Post #: 32

11/24/2014 7:31:16

Silver Sky Magician
Member

Satafou are you implying that 5 focus builds in general are broken against strength builds? In that they are categorically underpowered? That is untrue. Plus, even if it was, you keep failing to understand - this is to balance Katherax against other bots, not balance 5 focus builds against strength builds. And look, if you just shift 10 stat points from tech to dex, a strength build with 100 dex only has a 12% chance of blocking you. If the 12% is too high for you, you're simply being picky.

BTW, the Katherax user will have to be a pretty bad player for the IA user to win.

And this thread isn't about nerfing Katherax by reducing its base damage or something, this thread is to bring Katherax in line with other bots and suggest, more broadly, that all bots have their normal attack blockable to prevent a) the ability of 5 focus users to tech spam without any drawback b) the overcentralisation of 5 focus builds towards tech spam. 'Strength builds can strength spam, so why can't we tech spam, plus tech spamming is weaker than strength spamming' is completely besides the point.

In addition, as I have already stated, the salient part of Katherax countering strength builds is its special. Nothing to do with its normal attack. Just like how every other bot's unique design only has to do with its special, not their normal attack.

Furthermore, this 'Katherax is meant to do a), so every part of Katherax must contribute towards a)' is nonsense. I don't see the difference between such an argument and 'Support spam builds are meant to be glass cannons, so auxes should have both damage and accuracy based on support to help them become glass cannons, and auxes' accuracy based on tech is counterproductive'

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 11/24/2014 7:40:15 >

Post #: 33

11/24/2014 10:16:16

Satafou
Member

Sigh... Can any of you even read? I have stated the Katherax robot counters strength builds, not 5 focus builds countering strength. A 5 focus Infernal android player will beat a 5 focus Katherax player in every 1vs1 situation unless the infernal android player is bad. Also i do in fact play with the 10 extra stats in dex and i still get blocked a lot, it's not uncommon. I have not once lost to a Katherax 5 focus user in a 1vs1, but i have lost to strength builds. Tell me if this Katherax robot is so overpowered, why haven't i lost to it yet? I'm fine with Katherax losing some base damage (even though it isn't needed). However the Katherax robot, has every right to remain deflectable. It was designed so that it would be deflectable. In all honesty most robots normal attacks (apart from gamma and android ect as they already have a deflectable attack) should be deflectable rather than blockable as players shouldn't lose out of a large percentage of their damage output which is only available once every 4 turns just because someone managed to block them. A block isn't as much as a set back for strength builds as it is for a 5 focus builds (if it's the 5 focus players bot is what gets blocked) as strength builds have a consistent damage output every turn, where as 5 focus builds do not. Also King, i would go on how Lion heart isn't useless, and that it is actually very strong, but i assume you think it's used for 5 focus builds only so i won't bother explaining something you wouldn't understand.

Post #: 34

11/24/2014 11:07:33

Variation
Member

"Tell me if this Katherax robot is so overpowered, why haven't i lost to it yet?"

Because it's not really overpowered. I remember when the Lionhart robots first came out players claimed they were overpowered as well, and I can tell you the Lionhart robots were left untouched because they aren't overpowered. I highly doubt that the developers would nerf the Kartherax robots because they have to deal with these complaints almost every single time a new promo is released, and I'm sure they've gotten accustomed to it. I have virtually no trouble with the Kartherax robots as well and it doesn't even matter if I'm using a strength build, or a focus build. I do prefer to use Kartherax's Darkspawn P over Infernal Android, however I have seen players with one or both of the Kartherax robots that prefer to use Infernal Android. Also I do find it amusing how players consider the Kartherax robots to be better than all of the robots, if that was the case my win % wouldn't be pretty much identical when I'm using Infernal Android(focus build), or one of the Blood Hawks(strength build).

It has already been said in a complaint thread about the Kartherax robots that there are no plans to nerf the robot, and one of the members of the team even said it won't get nerfed. It doesn't bother me because in reality the robots really aren't overpowered compared to some of the other ones(note I didn't say "all" because not all robots are created equal, some of them are just better than most). It won't shock me when the next promo is released and we're dealing with another set of complaints and then most people just forget about their grievances with Kartherax just like they did with Lionhart. When in reality both sets of those robots aren't overpowered, especially Lionhart which is more of an average robot without special build combinations in 2v2.

EDIT:
Figured I'd add some comparisons with some of the other powerful robots.

Kartherax Darkspawns' normal attack is deflectable and its special simply lowers your primary weapon's damage to that of a level 1 weapon(disables the use of primary core also). It doesn't remove strength bonuses, meaning your gun is left unaffected. Curse of Kartherax lasts only 3 turns meaning it's very easy to counter it if you play correctly versus someone with this robot. The base damage is 190 which is reasonable when you compare it to the specials of the Blood Hawks and Black Abyss Bots.

Black Abyss Bots' normal attack is blockable and its special lowers both your opponent's defense and resistance by an increasing amount (-34 defense and resistance for 3 turns for a maximum of -102 defense resistance at level 40). This is a very powerful robot because all of the extra damage you can do with it and the fact that only one defensive buff completely counters it (Hybrid Armor). The base damage is 170 damage which is reasonable considering all of the extra damage you can get from the special.

Blood Hawks' normal attack is blockable and its special completely removes all armor defense/resistance and completely disables the use of your opponent's active armor core. The special lasts 3 turns and can give you a maximum of a whopping 360 damage + the damage your robot did at level 40. It's a very powerful robot at destroying five focus builds because if you time it right they won't be able to use Generator(generally the core most five focus users are using) when they really need it and you can proceed to overwhelm them with damage. The base damage is 170 which is reasonable when you consider how powerful the special is.

As you can see, when compared to the two other powerful sets of promo bots it really isn't overpowered. Saying the bot is overpowered would mean the Black Abyss Bots and Blood Hawks themselves can't compete with it and that definitely isn't true. In fact, these robots alone give some pretty good justification for making the robot not only have 190 base damage, but also have a deflectable basic attack. You can take advantage of the specials of the Blood Hawks and Black Abyss Bots with unblockable attacks(which will deal pretty decent damage), however with the Kartherax Darkspawns the special is generally only useful versus builds that make extensive use of their primary weapon. It's really not the best robot to take down focus builds therefore it definitely isn't the jack of all trades. Even with 190 base damage there exists other robots(the ones I've pointed out) that can take down focus builds with much more ease than the Kartherax Darkspawns.

Mother1 brought up a good point about not going backwards. Since the developers enabled themselves to make deflectable robots they definitely should take advantage of that and not go backwards by making all robots' normal attack blockable. It also really isn't a balance concern considering none of the deflectable robots are overpowered. When you see players using Infernal Android over the Kartherax Darkspawns(who have them) that furthermore does show that the Kartherax robots aren't just godly robots compared to all of the other ones. I've used the Black Abyss Bots, Blood Hawks, Infernal Android, and the Kartherax robots; I can say for sure that the Kartherax robots aren't overpowered against all builds when you compare it to those robots.

< Message edited by Variation -- 11/24/2014 14:00:30 >

Post #: 35

11/24/2014 18:56:08

I Underlord I
Member

I don't want to involve myself in this argument, but I would like to point out two facts, Variation.

Comparing Lionhart's Avatar to Kartherax's Darkspawn is nonsensical, since the former has a special of generally poor value and its primary attack can be blocked rather than deflected. The latter may have a special with only one effect that applies only to the opponent's primary, but it is exceedingly powerful against all builds that tend to Strike occasionally (or even rarely,) especially against classes such as Bounty Hunter with no (appealing) skills that increase damage output. It isn't merely useful against Strength abusers alone, as people like to claim.

It doesn't matter if anyone personally finds an item to be overpowered, underpowered, or fine as is, even if it is across builds and classes; one should look at it objectively. Darkspawn does have extraneous power because Technology affects both deflection chance and Robot damage; thus, Technology abusers can easily use Darkspawn to extreme effect, whether or not they even have Focus at Level 5. I wouldn't say this is enough to warrant a nerf to the Robot itself, especially as I'd prefer Focus be slightly buffed if not overhauled while Robot Bonus from Technology is entirely removed, but the fact is present.

_____________________________

"Memories and thoughts age, just as people do. But certain thoughts can never age, and certain memories can never fade."
~ Haruki Murakami, The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle

AQ	Post #: 36

11/24/2014 19:24:18

Variation
Member

^I brought up the Lionharts because there were people who considered those robots overpowered as well. In fact I've seen a thread claiming specific promo item(s) are overpowered for just about every promo released(based all the way from Beta to even now in Omega), and the Kartherax robots are no different.

Also I wouldn't be posting in this thread if it weren't for the very thing you pointed out. Kartherax being deflectable really isn't enough justification for the robot to be nerfed. Players are making it appear like it's some godly robot because it's deflectable and that certainly isn't the case. The Botanical Borgs are deflectable and have 170 base damage which is only 20 less than the Kartherax robots. If deflectable robots were so powerful because of their synergy with technology then I would also expect complaint threads of the Botanical Borgs also. However, most people would even classify most blockable robots as better than the Botanical Borgs(from what I've seen in-game). I don't see how creating a robot with 20 more damage than the Botanical Borgs with a special that is really good versus strength builds is a serious balance concern.

The robot also really isn't the jack of all trades - meaning it's not the best robot for every case. The Blood Hawks are generally superior at taking down five focus builds due to their special. Each bot is useful in its own respect, and I can say without a doubt that none of them are the best versus all builds.

I remember when the Black Abyss Bot E was deflectable, in fact a lot of players bought it for that reason. I saw no complaints over the fact it was deflectable (it's blockable now due to its animation) and it has a special that has more uses than the Kartherax Darkspawns' special, and only 20 less base damage.

< Message edited by Variation -- 4/20/2015 20:20:21 >

Post #: 37

11/26/2014 16:23:24

Squrwogrona
Member

Knew I shoudn't have used the word autowin. Anyway, a lot of people explained what I meant. To sum up, its only 3 turns, so you can just buff, drain energy, do whatever you want except using primary as a dmg source and its core. From my battles, there are two kinds of reactions to getting fished; a) player keeps striking and lose b) player does anything else, and if they are good/get enough luck or both, I just delayed my death for 3 turns if I'm unlucky and get deflected and even if I don't get deflected, it is always a close call.

Epic	Post #: 38

11/28/2014 4:21:06

kittycat
Member

The special of the Katherax is simply a redirection of skills. It merely discourages the infliction of primary-dependent skills. Katherax's simple skill is so humble, it is compensated by a high damage output. Keep in mind that bots can only be used every 4 turns, and Strike can be used without limitation.

In comparison to bots, this was intended to limit the prowess of strength, whereas other recent bots:

Blood Hawk - disintegrates defensive bonuses and capabilities from armor, which can target any player.
Black Abyss Bot - provides a gradual decrease of defense/resistance.
Lionheart - increases rage (Rage ignores 45% of def/res)

An acceleration in reduction of defenses actually do merit a blockable attack for those bots, while anything else weaker deserve a deflectable attack.

Post #: 39

11/30/2014 8:31:34

The berserker killer
Member

+I feel as if the devs highly underestimated the effect that this bot has on balance. Its highly strong and it can take away strength. I feel as if it should be one or the other

< Message edited by The berserker killer -- 11/30/2014 8:32:16 >

Epic

Post #: 40

12/4/2014 15:11:57

King Bling
Member

For a proper justification, I did a little experiment, switching builds between Strength and F5 , and then fighting the kartherax user, as a Strength user I noticed the second they use the special, I usually go with the gun, which gets deflected most of the times, then I go with a heal due to them using plasma cannon, then generator and then mark and blude strike etc. But usually..............................usually I end you dying, now....now I am a rank 30 player, with a descent strength build, I have noticed that during the 3 turns of special I hardly hurt them due to their mark which heals them like 172 or 150+ at least due to nukes like plasma, aux etc. Then after the 3 turns a large blow of 500+ damage usually, healing them like 175+ , not only this........ not only this but it takes away the inserted core of the sword thus not allowing an assure hit from my meteor, which I have inserted, now when using F5 , usually either I or the opp. starts, there are chances in this build since idk......but , since the bot having a higher base damage than any normal credits purchasable bot, it does a normal damage of 275+ while having 395 defense, ranging from 671-723, and rages .....

Overall, its too OP, reasons:
1.) -240 primary
2.) Core Removed
3.) 190 base damage
4.) Deflectable
Apart from the first ability, one of the other abilities should be nerfed down, its too much.

People say you can simply counter the core, but try it once yourself and you will know how it goes, the gun is DEFLECTABLE, having less tech, same goes with the aux, and who heals or gens in the first or second turn, people its not the counter, either lower its base damage or make the thing blockable is the only option for it.

Post #: 41

12/5/2014 9:59:57

Squrwogrona
Member

@King That is true. However if there wasn't kartherax, everyone would be back to high hp high str. That is the base level here. Also, some classes and builds can just ignore kartherax altogether. To name one, HumanWarTank's cyber high hp high str just doesn't care. If there was some nerf to this bot, I think is safe to state that many more classes with said build would just steamroll over f5 again. I am aware that this is not ideal PoV, but as long as there is no fix to stat progression itself, these OP solutions will always be an easier way to "balance" things.

Epic	Post #: 42

12/5/2014 10:26:00

Mother1
Member

@ King bling

I actually battle these players and for me it is 50/50 depending on the way the match goes. If I do lose to them majority of the times it is due to Random Number Generator working against me at the worst times.

To be honest I find strength builds with High HP more annoying to deal with then the focus 5 Kartherax robot users that you are saying are extremely strong due to strength builds getting more blocks due to their high dex and content output damage, rather than the focus 5 robot builds using this kartherax robot.

In other words what happens to you =/= what happens to everyone because we all experience things differently depending on the player.

Epic	Post #: 43

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