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RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them?

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3/21/2015 21:59:37   
Dragonknight315
Member

@Kingbrando So you are assuming that, because in past stories that we wern't able to change their fate, the same rule of thumb applies here? I'm sorry, I just don't see the proof there. It's an assumption.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 276
3/21/2015 22:00:08   
shadow dragon666
Member

We had roughly on average back then 1000-2000 at times. Sometimes more but that was rare.

We also have wars that were 8 million waves, we had wars that were double wars. Trying to remember the average player count back during the beach war I know it wasn't as high as things like storm war, though I believe it was more than now though.

We also had people do things like that back then too, some crazy times back then on the forums.



Dragonknight315: I asked Geo directly in which we had a chance to directly change the fate ANY of the NPC's who have died. She said Zero. Meaning we had zero chance to save Serenity.

< Message edited by shadow dragon666 -- 3/21/2015 22:01:53 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 277
3/21/2015 22:01:07   
Branl
Member

@Arkste
You've explained yourself just fine.
I really hope the staff takes a look at your post.

< Message edited by Branl -- 3/21/2015 22:14:51 >
AQ DF  Post #: 278
3/21/2015 22:03:50   
Dragonknight315
Member

@Shadowdragon666 I honestly think you are just twisting her words out of context. I think that when she said that, she was referring to the past characters.


*Sighs* Geo, if you are there, I really want to settle this because I trust you and the staff with ALL of my heart. What was the planned path IF we won the war?

< Message edited by Dragonknight315 -- 3/21/2015 22:05:40 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 279
3/21/2015 22:05:09   
shadow dragon666
Member

Dragonknight: How is it twisting? She is the one who listed the NPC's not me. I asked if we could directly change any of their fates, she said zero. That's pretty open and shut.

Plus there was the note of her being affected by the weapon too, sort of playing into she may not of gone that route but she wouldn't be around regardless. Though that's more reading into possibles.

< Message edited by shadow dragon666 -- 3/21/2015 22:06:03 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 280
3/21/2015 22:06:58   
The Hollow Soul
Member

quote:

Geo: You can count the number of named major NPCs that have died on one hand. Demento, Celestia, Tomix, Serenity. It's not something that has ever, or will ever, happen lightly.

SD666: How many of those were we directly able to change the fate of?

Geo: Zero

SD666: So even if we won? She was gone?

Geo: There was that whole month of her being driven crazy by the Doom weapon, right?



DF  Post #: 281
3/21/2015 22:07:12   
Dragonknight315
Member

@Shadow I guess that's the issue. We arn't the staff, so we DON'T know the possibilities. I'm sorry if I am being rude or just plain unfriendly, but I just love this game and the staff so much.

@Above: Yeah, I will admit that it was a possibility that she wouldn't be the same after the war. But perhaps, that would have healed with time, or maybe we'd be able to stop it? It all depends on what was actually planned.

< Message edited by Dragonknight315 -- 3/21/2015 22:08:19 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 282
3/21/2015 22:07:55   
Branl
Member

@shadowdragon666 Well Geo did make a post pointing out the effect the Doom Weapon was having on her, so it sounds exactly like that.

< Message edited by Branl -- 3/21/2015 22:08:15 >
AQ DF  Post #: 283
3/21/2015 22:09:25   
The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*


 The major thing about war losses is that pretty much every time it's happened in the past, whether Xan / Avatars / Turduckens, Falconreach was rebuilt to be better than it was before.
Unlike Tomix, there is no saved world. Unlike Celestia, there is no replacement. The death of Serenity hit a lot of people really hard, but the biggest pain was that there is no way for the community to pick themselves up from this. It hurts, even though Serenity didn't fight alongside us, or train our dragon, or anything else, because even if the Baron is defeated, Serenity doesn't come back.


However, my unpopular opinion is that other than the -BTH curse, it was better for this to be a loss than a win.


Outside of the Baron taunting our "victory" (which didn't happen, making for an error that wasn't taken out in time), Geo confirming that that Serenity was definitely going to die means that the reactions to the outcome of this war would have been as bad if we won. Probably even more so, because judging by people mentioning how they were forgoing sleep and study for it, that it would have been inappropriate for such a war to have a "win" with that result.


Victory being just out of reach (despite the fact that there was no good end for this battle) makes the loss much more powerful.

The rage would have been as big or even bigger when Caitiff is revealed even though we managed the ludicrous 3000 WPM or whatever in the final hour.
DF AQW  Post #: 284
3/21/2015 22:11:41   
Zork Knight
Member

@The ErosionSeeker:
quote:

Unlike Celestia, there is no replacement.


Serenity was a replacement herself, and Spruce exists, you know.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 285
3/21/2015 22:14:13   
Aura Knight
Member

Wars with a predetermined outcome shouldn't even happen. In this last war, what was the point in even trying to win if the end results would have been the same? Wouldn't it have been much simpler to just make this a single quest instead of a week long war which was obviously gonna be lost the moment the enemy kept getting random advantages. I feel as if I've been cheated by the last war and although I did get quite a lot of xp and gold from it, the end result still disappointed me. I understand that for the sake of the story, what happened was inevitable, but next time something like this is to occur, don't make it a war. Considering there's so few players online now, maybe it would also be a good idea to lower the required amount of kills just a bit. How can everyone have millions of soldiers for their armies all the time? 4 million vs 400-500 players with only maybe half actually fighting doesn't seem fun. Sure there's many that enjoy fighting but the efforts of a few would still be irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. I mean you could have players who defeat thousands of enemies and that wouldn't even make a dent in the millions. If a war is gonna be timed, don't make the deadline at such an awkward hour. It might have been on Friday but as we came to realize, that is a horrible time. US players are at school till about 3 so by the time they get home they would probably have a few hours to fight, and that's if they have any incentive to. Looking back, I'm not even sure why I bothered fighting. I guess I tried to use this war as a means of trying to get more interested in this game again and it worked for a while. But the disappointing results of my efforts as well as the efforts of many others is starting to discourage me. I don't want to quit this game since I still think it's amazing, however, it's not the same game I used to enjoy. It's gonna take a while to get used to things and while the way this last war was done is actually a good start, there's always room for improvements.

For example, as I mentioned already, the amount of waves could be a bit less so it can be manageable for at least 500 players. Let's say anywhere between 1 million and 3.75 million. We almost defeated 4 million which is amazing considering so few people fought. Maybe the numbers isn't as much of an issue as I thought, but I'll still suggest a decrease in total enemies. As for the loss of ways to fight, like the catapult being stolen and no bombings after a certain point, that part was alright. However, what was the reason behind not allowing us to get back our catapults? If the enemy stole them from us, we should be able to get them back. It could have been done as another side quest. The other thing I want changed is if there's a timed war, we should have until 11:59 pm server time to finish. This gives more players more time to actually fight during the start of the weekend. Not everyone can play during the week because they have other obligations such as school, work, or whatever else they do.

Despite the results, I will not say I truly hated the war. It was quite fun and the community on the forums during that time was great, up until the point where everyone simply admitted defeat before time was even up. However, I can't really blame those people. I prefer being the optimist in situations and although such a thing can be foolish when things are obviously bleak, I can't help but be hopeful.

AQ DF AQW  Post #: 286
3/21/2015 22:21:40   
kingbrando15
Member

cant say the say about the war now given the information that no matter what no matter how hard players tried their efforts were a waste allowing the players to think they had a chance to save serenity's life and then pretty being told she was going to die(or something else horrible) anyway that i dont know there are no words(nice words)i can think of for this its just...cruel imo.

< Message edited by kingbrando15 -- 3/21/2015 22:22:39 >
AQ DF  Post #: 287
3/21/2015 22:28:03   
Branl
Member

@AuraKnight
On the flip side, players putting off real life for dragonfable because "consequences" should never happen either.
We all have our own opinions.

< Message edited by Branl -- 3/21/2015 22:37:20 >
AQ DF  Post #: 288
3/21/2015 22:28:55   
Dragonknight315
Member

@Branl Yeah. That I'll agree with you. If you let any game take over your life, you've lost.

< Message edited by Dragonknight315 -- 3/21/2015 22:29:09 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 289
3/21/2015 22:31:28   
Aura Knight
Member

That's true. If you have real life obligations, you should get those done before deciding if you want to help or not help in an ingame war.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 290
3/21/2015 22:33:34   
Arkste
Member

So from I'm observed thus far with the way this thread's discussion has taken and the rather high activity on the forums, the general backlash on the end result of this war is basically an argument pertaining to the illusion of choice and consequence.

Specifically, it sounds like the war's end result required a fixed point in the narrative for the narrative to progress onward, and some players "saw" through the illusion and are now upset because it was the end result of a war. Would anyone say this is this a fair observation to make? I haven't been able to keep up with the direction this discussion has taken very much.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 291
3/21/2015 22:33:37   
The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*
quote:

Serenity was a replacement herself, and Spruce exists, you know.


I know both, but Spruce is kind of falling apart in one of the latest dialogues...

quote:

Falconreach Inn (Book 3 Night Time)

During Advance on the Castle!:
Spruce: Hiya! Whatcha doin' up so late? Me? Well I have to do everything here now and be everywhere at once!


I don't know if this exact line is meant irritably, but even though Spruce also says the "free room" and "fresh bread" lines, the result is markedly different.
DF AQW  Post #: 292
3/21/2015 22:34:39   
Branl
Member

I'd go even farther to say that players boring themself to death participating in wars shouldn't feel forced to do so because "consequences" as well.
Kind of defeats the purpose of a game when you aren't having fun.

< Message edited by Branl -- 3/21/2015 22:35:57 >
AQ DF  Post #: 293
3/21/2015 22:40:08   
kingbrando15
Member

@Arkste pretty much i guess its the fact that it didnt matter if we won or lost the result was going to be the same it would seem, also upset is a tad of an understatement

< Message edited by kingbrando15 -- 3/21/2015 22:41:31 >
AQ DF  Post #: 294
3/21/2015 23:01:51   
Arkste
Member

I see...

This is a rather heated subject to get into because of the emotional connection the player (and to extend it to other mediums, the viewer, reader, etc.) makes with certain characters, not just due to the events that occurred but also their staging.

I don't think I can say anything to help alleviate people's pain, but as an aspiring game designer and writer, the situation that has played out here is something that has kept me up at night in the past thinking about how to handle it. I understand why it had to happen this way, but it's more than apparent how polarizing the way everything panned out was.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 295
3/21/2015 23:02:55   
Branl
Member

@KingBrando
Well then what on earth do you want?
One minute you're arguing that the story is too dark and this war turned you off from the game.
Now you're arguing that the war should've had an impact on Serenity's fate.
Jeez man, pick one side and stick with it.
AQ DF  Post #: 296
3/21/2015 23:06:25   
Zork Knight
Member

@Branl: Those two are not mutually exclusive.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 297
3/21/2015 23:15:36   
Branl
Member

quote:

though geo do you think thats something that players are going to risk? this war has put a bad taste in the mouths of some players, i ask again would the player or i as a player risk that the next war may or may not be similar to this one no i wont the risk is way to high imo.


There are alot of posts from him like that if you want me to find more.
AQ DF  Post #: 298
3/21/2015 23:26:28   
kingbrando15
Member

@branl

ill admit that i have been know to kinda flip flop and make zero sense at times especially when a bit agitated. though that quote is just saying i wont being in any more wars idk how you took it though?

< Message edited by kingbrando15 -- 3/21/2015 23:29:24 >
AQ DF  Post #: 299
3/21/2015 23:40:21   
Insane2201
Member

My problem with this kind of war with "consequences" is the number of minions we beat during it doesn't matter or impact the ending at all. I mean we literally ripped through 3.8 million waves before we lost. It seems it's all or nothing thing. You either beat all the minions, but if you don't... well you're boned.

Also being punished because my work schedule conflicted with this whole war.
AQ DF MQ Epic  Post #: 300
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