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RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them?

 
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2/20/2015 18:45:25   
Azan
Member

quote:

Try to increase the size of the community. This would be the solution I would like the most, but it is also the hardest to achieve. I just realised a while ago that I havenít seen any online adds for DF in ages. So the only new players joining us are most likely coming from other AE games or they are returning players. Now, adds cost money, and new players arenít necessarily going to pay for the game, and I guess if the staff thought this was a viable option theyíd be doing it already. I just thought Iíd bring it up, because maybe the players themselves can do something to promote the game a little bit (Iím talking about you kids with your social media thingies that I donít use myself :D).

This is, for me, the most important point. I know DF doesn't have millions to spend on publicity, but there's a need to bring fresh meat players to the game. I'm sure the existing players themselves can help with that, to spread the word that DF is an awesome game with excellent art and outstanding stories.
Post #: 76
2/20/2015 18:47:19   
tthorn4
Member

That was the source of my personal burnout, personally. No introduction, little motivation, and on top of that consequences for losing? It felt like I was playing Wildstar or something. I don't play games for a source of tedium, I play for stories and fun! Dragonfable generally is quite good about delivering that, but this war was a mess. Partially it was our attitude on the forums, which was... grating, but the lack of motive compounded that.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 77
2/20/2015 21:08:46   
Alpha Centipede
Member

Looking through the thread, I think Myra summed up the points very well.

I agree that we need deadlines for wars, no matter how small the war. Since the DF community is quite small now compared to last time, I don't think that we can be motivated to fight a war if it's just thrown at us like that. At least, I know I won't. I feel that it would be much better if a tentative deadline could be announced, then slightly adjusted depending on the situation. That would at least give more motivation to fight a war.

As for increasing the size of the community, that would be a viable option. Though it would take some time, since not everyone has the same taste in games, and personally, some of my friends who used to play DF years ago have almost no intent to return due to RL issues and/or other games.

Burnout from wars is also a point I'd like to bring up, but it seems that the problem has been addressed in this thread, so I won't dwell on it.

In a nutshell, I feel that the most important thing we need in future wars is motivation to complete the war. It can be a deadline, pets, something that ties into the story, anything. Knowing the DF community, achieving speeds of over 1000 wpm is not unheard of - in fact, it's quite a common occurrence, but it didn't happen in this war probably due to lack of motivation to complete it for the majority of the war. Due to that, I feel that increasing the size of the community is not as imperative as having motivation for completing a war.
DF  Post #: 78
2/21/2015 4:05:50   
mahasamatman
Member

a) perhaps the lack of motivation for this war was because it fell on heroes' heart day (giving other quests to finish) and also on valentine's (giving people other things to do).

b) as much as the lack of motivation is annoying, not everyone likes wars (from various reasons), surely not ones that aren't storyline.
I think that punishing us for failing a war is unfair. preventing war rewards from us- yes. a curse that (if i understood correctly) would randomly stun us sometimes- no.
I, for one, am quite DEmotivated to fight the next war.

Ultimately, I feel annoyed and disrespected. I think that we should be motivated through rewards or the lack of them, not through curses. We play this game to have fun. If wars would be an obligation, meaning we are punished for not participating in them, it would ruin our (or at least my) joy of them.


_____________________________

His followers called him Mahasamatman, and claimed he was a god.
He never claimed to be a god, but then, he never claimed not to be a god.
Circumstances being what they were, neither admission could be of any benefit.
Silence, though, could.
DF  Post #: 79
2/21/2015 4:13:07   
megakyle777
Member

quote:

Ultimately, I feel annoyed and disrespected. I think that we should be motivated through rewards or the lack of them, not through curses. We play this game to have fun. If wars would be an obligation, meaning we are punished for not participating in them, it would ruin our (or at least my) joy of them.


I feel annoyed, but not disrespected. Rather, it gives me a idea as well as feedback.

I am of the opnion that wars SHOULD have some sort of punishment. However, I think that taking away the War Rewards, plus a darker twist in the story as a punch in the gut for our failure like Falconreach having to be rebuilt, is enough punishment.

However, if curses like the one that would have occurred are possible, and they clearly are if Ash acknowledges them, I'd like to see them as a option in addition to Hard mode that can be toggled on and off. Maybe you could even tie unique curses into wars as a option: complete the wave or quest under a curse, and gain better gold/xp/drops/chance of a rare wave/additional waves added.

< Message edited by megakyle777 -- 2/21/2015 4:14:11 >
DF  Post #: 80
2/21/2015 11:02:26   
The Hollow Soul
Member

I think there should be consequences from losing the wars, just like in a real life war. That's one of the big reason why I don't play in wars that don't have a solid "If we lose, something happens." It doesn't give me motivation to fight if I know nothing is happening if I don't help.

The Core war was a good example, if we lost that war something bad would have happened to the whole town of Ravenloss.


I think removing rewards that we could have won is a good start, destroying Falconreach has lost its importance since it always gets rebuilt 2-3 weeks later with little consequence of anything happening, and now this new idea of a curse put upon the hero if they lose is pretty interesting.

Just because DF is a "fun" game doesn't mean it should lack on doing something bad if we lose a war. Especially on a war that will have a continuous story told throughout the year.

< Message edited by The Hollow Soul -- 2/21/2015 11:19:00 >
DF  Post #: 81
2/21/2015 11:16:51   
dragon_monster
Member

As another fellow player and forum user said the best way is to increase the player base. Its smaller now and its harder for us to finish a war very fast because we are to few. I do not know a viable way and even if I did I its not the subject of this topic. The other way is of course is to motivate us with items or a preview of the war reward as its proven we like things and we do fight a lot for them.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 82
2/21/2015 11:23:19   
Ash
Member


So, if I'm reading these right,

1. No small wars again, ever. They need to be large, have a major impact, and hold a consequence. If they aren't then they are pointless and hold no motivation so they shouldn't be done.
2. Set a deadline for every single one. No "they should finish it by monday" regardless. Tell you when you have to and make losing painful if you don't make it.
3. Always have an intro and outro cutscene. Always have music. Always make it a major storyline event and over the top to get people involved.
4. Make challenges along the way and invest as much art assets as possible so that people have a tangible reason for wanting to war.
5. The consequences need to have merit and depth so if you do lose you feel it for years to come.
6. More than 3 ways to complete a war. 6-10 basic quests.
7. Vary the monsters in the waves.
8. Don't put any wars close together because it's a drain.

Did I hit those about right?



< Message edited by Ash -- 2/21/2015 11:43:17 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 83
2/21/2015 11:37:15   
Arthur Glacier
Member

I think it's a good summary.

I have one more suggestion.
Wars like the last Pirates vs. Ninja War, outcome of which was decisive for a class update, could be a very good idea.
I mean, it's a fight in which every participant takes a side.
I think that having influence on something as important as direction or order of game's development would give people a lot of motivation.
DF  Post #: 84
2/21/2015 11:40:47   
dragon_monster
Member

^At 1 its more like they need to hold some motivation any motivation, they can be small but we do need a reason to fight what it is its the staff's choice.
At 2 set a deadline at the start of the war and preferably in the weekend or friday night.
At 3 I think we understood that is not possible because certain events deserve a war.
At 4 you got it but you must understand we really do not know how much work is that at least I do not
At 5 not for years to come but you got it
At 6 you got it but the same as 4.
At 7 you got it
At 8 you got it.

< Message edited by dragon_monster -- 2/21/2015 11:41:38 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 85
2/21/2015 11:43:21   
Ash
Member


Something that wasn't covered though. What happens when things DO overlap like this? Do we just ignore one because, "well...we have a war...can't do Mogloween now because X war takes priority". Do we just put every storyline on hold then if it's going to overlap in one way or another so that you're not having to set a priority? What if we wanted to make you choose between defending the sandsea and defending oaklore? Can't do that now can we? If we invest THAT much that you all state is NECESSARY now for wars we are now so limited in what we can and can't do. Wars are now going to have to last for 3 weeks, with no other releases because we'll be so burned out from trying to get them done we'll need that recover time. I said before in the thread that realistic expectation need to be a thing, they still aren't. You took a war you lost, took everything about it that you didn't like and are now projecting it onto what every war needs. That's perfectly fine but guess what, if we now do everything you want, you're going to get that. If you lose towns will be leveled, you're going to get cursed, you're going to be pushed to the limit once, maybe twice a year, and you may end up DREADING wars because of what you guys want out of them.

quote:

Wars like the last Pirates vs. Ninja War, outcome of which was decisive for a class update, could be a very good idea.
I mean, it's a fight in which every participant takes a side.
I think that having influence on something as important as direction or order of game's development would give people a lot of motivation.

We cannot do those any longer going by the above wants. I do not have the ability to do anything on my own for a war anymore so you all lose out on class revamp related wars AND on any further storylines created by me because they are usually my own work.

< Message edited by Ash -- 2/21/2015 11:45:53 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 86
2/21/2015 11:51:33   
dragon_monster
Member

^You must understand we might give some sugestion that are very time consuming but I am sure that there were some that were not like that. You can not please all that is the reality but there must be some sugestions that are realistic. Also many of the sugestions were about things that were in wars before so nostalgia plays a part and fact that we do not realise that the game changed.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 87
2/21/2015 11:52:55   
The Hollow Soul
Member

When I say consequences I mean it should vary with the level of the war. I'm not at all against small wars as I find the wars that last 8 million waves and 3 weeks long are the worst points of wars in this game. I'm in a small minority when it comes to that though since most people like endless grinding wars because "Warmonger Spirit"

So if it's a holiday war or a fun war that we somehow lose, we shouldn't get the war rewards as our punishment.

If it's related to a storyline that we are in, the consequences should be a little more steep depending on what we're fighting for.


I'm not at all trying to say if we lose like a fun Mogloween war that Amityvale should be destroyed and the hero should have a curse that drains their health continuously no matter what.
DF  Post #: 88
2/21/2015 11:58:11   
Ash
Member


That's the problem though. Read over the last few pages. You all jumped on ideas and went, "Yes! We NEED this!" The fact that I couldn't get an intro cutscene done and didn't include music was labeled as something that was a negative, that demotivated people. It didn't matter that it was a repeat of the original war, it was not motivational and the war suffered for it.

If we DON'T do what you all want now, we'll get hit with "but we asked for it and you said you'd try! Why could you do X want and not Z?" It doesn't matter anymore that we have a small staff, you all want big, flashy, over the top. If we do a small war, don't push you with motivations, and challenges, there is no more drive like there was years ago to just do the war because of pride. You now have to be led alone with "candy" to finish, there has to be some sort of carrot at the end or it's "not worth it." I can't do a small storyline on my own and include a short 500k waves war because it would have no grand motivation to complete, I can't do class revamp wars because they won't be flashy and large and over the top, we can't do the traditional F13 war because it may not be flashy and grand and over the top. If we do the 6-10 ways to war then we end up burnt out on quest making and coming up with new ways of questing and then we have no energy to do the next couple weeks of content. Remember what happened after the war at the core? We had filler releases because Tomix was burnt out after all that animating.

If you all can make a realistic list that takes into account our ability, realistic wants that fall into them, and so we can have more than 1 war a year so that nothing conflicts, that would be great. If all you guys want is the above list that I made that's so over the top in pushing us to the breaking point that we then have to push YOU to the breaking point, it'll be a very limited scope of wars from now on after March. Yes, knowing you want over the top is something, but it doesn't give us any realistic ways to accomplish that. If that is you're only want though then that's the only thing you want. I did ask for that and I got it.

< Message edited by Ash -- 2/21/2015 12:04:55 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 89
2/21/2015 12:04:37   
dragon_monster
Member

A thing that could help here is to know what is realistic for example are challenges for something in a war realistic?

< Message edited by dragon_monster -- 2/21/2015 12:05:00 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 90
2/21/2015 12:08:43   
Ash
Member


Yes, as long as they take into consideration what amount of man power we have.

6 sets of weapons at 20 different points isn't realistic for us to do. One set, or a pet, or a cape or two, etc to get you to 50% is. It's still the carrot on the stick but Rags or Drace or someone can make something for that.

6-10 ways to war isn't realistic. 3-5 is. What are the BEST, MOST FUN, ways we've had? Are there any kinds that we can try to do that would fit into that that would seem fun? Was the supply run quest fun? Is the catapult only fun because you can blow through it in 10 seconds? Is fast the only motivator?

If we only had one type of music for war waves, is that enough? Does it always have to be different or can we have one set type of music? Having different each time is a lot harder than just using the same music. Or does having the different music make it better?

Stuff like that. I did say this before and it did turn back into just a random list of stuff. I do appreciate Myra giving that list but some of the stuff on there we can't do for one reason or another. Yes it sucks, I'm sorry. We have our own limits. Are we trying different stuff for March based on that list though? Yes. We will never be able to do everything on that list though. I'm sorry, we can't.

< Message edited by Ash -- 2/21/2015 12:11:10 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 91
2/21/2015 12:09:44   
The Hollow Soul
Member

@Ash,

1. If there's a deadline for a war, make it known to everyone not just DNs and Forums.
2. Varying consequences for wars depending on importance and size.
3. Spacing between the wars so a burn-out doesn't happen.
4. If staff have extra time for a few bonus items in war releases, they'd be nice, they aren't a necessity for me though.
5. Small text blurb talking about the war like with the Full Moon war if an intro cut-scene can't be done.
6. I play with music off most times, so music isn't on my radar.
7. Maybe one or two new ways to win waves brought in for some wars that are bigger than 2mil, doesn't have to be on a grand scale like the Avatar war or Final 13th was.

Those are my ideas for what'd I like. I do apologize if I at all came off rash or rude to you guys.
DF  Post #: 92
2/21/2015 12:18:52   
megakyle777
Member

Sorry Ash, we got a little carried away. It's just we care about wars ya know?

quote:

6-10 ways to war isn't realistic. 3-5 is. What are the BEST, MOST FUN, ways we've had? Are there any kinds that we can try to do that would fit into that that would seem fun? Was the supply run quest fun? Is the catapult only fun because you can blow through it in 10 seconds? Is fast the only motivator?


The most fun I had was with The Storm War. Mostly because it was different if that makes sense. We had a endless foe and had to survive till the end. I suppose (though I don't know if this is feasable) a different type of war each time would be good. Far as I KNOW, there are 6 different types of war in DF that I've seen over the years and may be in the code somewhere:

Normal War
Endless Just Survive War
Search for something/hidingplaces war (like with the Blade Of Awe)
The Lucky War we had which I can recall what was different. The one where we had o recover the shattered rainbow parts.
Vs wars
War where we play as Dragonrider/New armour

So there are 6 different war types off the top of my head that are ALREADY in game. If one could use ones fitting to the story and cycle between them and throw in a mingames for variety, it could revitalise the war effort.
DF  Post #: 93
2/21/2015 12:20:21   
dragon_monster
Member

Okay we got somewhere here so I suggest that challenges be put brought back for wars.

quote:

If we only had one type of music for war waves, is that enough?

Listening only type becomes very annoying fast that really is not enough in my opinion.

quote:

Or does having the different music make it better?

The difference is that we do not stop the music, at least again in my opinion.

quote:

Is the catapult only fun because you can blow through it in 10 seconds? Is fast the only motivator?

Yes it is in my opinion

quote:

Was the supply run quest fun?

No but still in my opinion.
quote:

What are the BEST, MOST FUN, ways we've had?

Fighting with the world destroyer in titan form actually but yeah the one were you destroy waves from above was fun and pretty fast.


< Message edited by dragon_monster -- 2/21/2015 12:21:05 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 94
2/21/2015 12:24:57   
Adel
Member

quote:

1. No small wars again, ever. They need to be large, have a major impact, and hold a consequence. If they aren't then they are pointless and hold no motivation so they shouldn't be done.
2. Set a deadline for every single one. No "they should finish it by monday" regardless. Tell you when you have to and make losing painful if you don't make it.
3. Always have an intro and outro cutscene. Always have music. Always make it a major storyline event and over the top to get people involved.
4. Make challenges along the way and invest as much art assets as possible so that people have a tangible reason for wanting to war.
5. The consequences need to have merit and depth so if you do lose you feel it for years to come.
6. More than 3 ways to complete a war. 6-10 basic quests.
7. Vary the monsters in the waves.
8. Don't put any wars close together because it's a drain.


1. Not small wars is fine from time to time. consequence maybe it shouldn't be the highest priority but an impact in story, well yeah that is what motivates the most if we enjoy a story we will enjoy a war. As for the 13th it just sound like I earlier said it sounds like just a war happening every Friday the 13th, I don't know maybe they should finally die out considering we are onto a new era of roses. and they have been going on for a good while from the sound of it that I can understand why they can get boring and unmotivating. However they would be nice if you would like to intoduce a new character that you may or may not be planing to tell us more about in another story later on and think the war would be a good into for him/her/it?

2. Deadlines is nice, just do it as there is nothing to it but to do it. Just put it out there we want it you know it. walk in the park right? :)

3. This one sounds nice as when I saw this war starting it was like "We are getting attacked, Quick to the frontlines!!!" And I end up like oh well here we go.... If I' be dong this for a good while I can imagen myself just pass from time to time and that would lead to wars being expecially hard to win if everyone did that.

4. 25% boss 1, 50% boss 2, 100% Final Boss Fight.... that sounds like alot of work and cutscens..... But it's worth it on the major wars. but don't do that on every war burning you out is the last thing we want.

5. No I don't like that one....

6. Wow there tiger!! 6-10? 3-4 options is fine atleast to me it is just be creative from time to time and save the 5-10 coming up with something different for the next war to come 6-10.... you will end up with quests not many people prefers and they go for the others making it feel like a waste of time on your part, again the last thing we want it to burn you out!

7. If a war is about the Darkness striking at the light then there are more than skelletons, flying eyeballs and the typical tree and fruit monsters we see so fighting them all the time in every war gets old. so vary the wars more like, we have another 13th next month and then another later this year will we fight more of those? Don't leave out the oponents with an acutall brain too but they would fit well in bossfights. <nod>

8. Got it all right to many wars to close will drain alot so avoid wars that no longer is relevant to any plot anymore.

quote:

I have one more suggestion.
Wars like the last Pirates vs. Ninja War, outcome of which was decisive for a class update, could be a very good idea.
I mean, it's a fight in which every participant takes a side.
I think that having influence on something as important as direction or order of game's development would give people a lot of motivation.


I like this one. You have two sides other people like side A more and Others likes Side B more. You let people pick one side(per character and stick with it, Defect at 50% if your team is already on the lead by 5-10% maybe) This one doesn't nee cutcens or anything we both know the sides maybe a chatbubble or two explaining why they are clashing maybe and give us a short background. These things might happend ever once a year or two just random when there haven't been any wars for a while. Rewards will be availible only to the winning side and it shouldn't always involve revamps maybe just a shop with speciall item or a one time ability for maybe costumize your armor that you have once.(Just from the top of my head xD) ofc we don't need to always know what the reward is other than if it's material, one time thing or whatever^^
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 95
2/21/2015 12:25:40   
Zork Knight
Member

I really have no issue with the number of ways to get waves done. 3 or 4 (normal battle, catapult, bombing, quest?) would be perfectly fine.

I do, however, think wars should happen less frequently. We currently have what, about 10 per year? Nearly 1 per month? Sometimes they happen for no reason whatsoever *cough, Turducken, cough*

Also, knowing the deadlines early would be pretty good.

And if we lose a war, we should face consequences. If it's a minor war, just no rewards would be fine. If it's a major one, deeply related to storyline, we should see some serious impact.

There's no need for multiple challenges or heavy investment is fancy art IMO. That'd just be a waste of time. A single challenge with good-looking rewards would be enough, or no challenge at all, really.

Music isn't that necessary either. Most forum players often listen to other stuff while warring, I think.

Wars that last too long bore me to death. Minor wars (say, a holidary war) should be made to last a week. Major wars, maybe two weeks?

Always having intro and outro custcenes would be nice. No need for flashy, time-consuming, top-tier animation, though. X% cutscenes would be nice to see, but they're not necessary either.

Finally, no Turduckens ever again. EVER.

This is just my opinion, though.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 96
2/21/2015 12:36:20   
megakyle777
Member

I will admit that I'm not sure if my plan is feasable. But my working on this is that if they are in the database it SHOULD be easy to use them. And if used in the right type of war story it could make the war better. Imagine having to fight off a endless wave of undead for the week on Friday 13th's? Or searching for pieces of a old artifact we need to strive off the darkness.
DF  Post #: 97
2/21/2015 12:38:36   
Adel
Member

quote:

I will admit that I'm not sure if my plan is feasable. But my working on this is that if they are in the database it SHOULD be easy to use them. And if used in the right type of war story it could make the war better. Imagine having to fight off a endless wave of undead for the week on Friday 13th's? Or searching for pieces of a old artifact we need to strive off the darkness.


How exactlly would the waves count in endless waves/survival modes? :P

Edit: You know Ash if it's relevant to the war having that and the catapult would be to much so when you are unsure about it do like me or throw a dice. One only coins earning misson is enough for each war xD.I'm still lvling and the war xp is a good way :)

< Message edited by Adel -- 2/21/2015 12:41:50 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 98
2/21/2015 12:38:36   
Ash
Member


They actually all work exactly the same. It's just the layering of art over them that's different. Endless is just we set the wave count to something crazy high like 99999999999 and then you just have to last till X date with a funky coded meter. I was more referring to war waves. Like foot/catapult/supply/etc.

Would the "Bombing run over Falconreach" type wave be useful if it didn't go up to 10 rounds? (Not for the perm one for the one that shows up in a war) Would 5 rounds work? That should make it closer to catapult speed.

< Message edited by Ash -- 2/21/2015 12:39:52 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 99
2/21/2015 12:40:11   
dragon_monster
Member

^Yes that would help a lot.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 100
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