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RE: =OS= Design Notes March 27th, 2015: Drakath's Final Form - Chaos Drakath!

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4/3/2015 15:10:40   
The Jop
Member

Nothing was ever as game breaking as this. Disregarding balance shows they don't care about players, not not giving a powerful character a ridiculously powerful deck. Nulgath's "Shadow" came out and it's not very good though it should be extremely powerful. Can we please just drop this conversation about how Drakath deserves a severely overpowered card because of the way he's portrayed in another game? Because I just don't agree; balance is much more important to me.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 4/3/2015 15:13:03 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 76
4/3/2015 15:32:55   
Gorillo Titan
Member

A shadow is only a fraction of the strength of the original. The real Nulgath is twice as big with a giant flying sword he'll be a lot stronger when he comes out.

The same convo was had when Queen came out and she had the potential to easily win a fight with full health at the end of it.

Complaining about Drakath without know what is planned for the next could of weeks isn't really that smart since we have no idea what nulgath could have planned maybe more contest characters with doomknight being the strongest "regular" soldiers in the AE universe gives them perfect reason for them to be close to or a little under the same tier as drakath. With seppy being stronger than them.

< Message edited by Gorillo Titan -- 4/3/2015 15:34:41 >
Post #: 77
4/3/2015 15:47:56   
The Jop
Member

A fraction of Nulgath's strength in AQW should still be extremely powerful. And him making new, crazy powerful characters isn't a solution either since that makes all 300 characters we have now obsolete.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 4/3/2015 15:49:28 >

_____________________________
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 78
4/3/2015 15:55:58   
Axel459
The Void Calls


 Really hoping to see some kind of nerf to the chaos cards specifically Regen and Flux soon.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 79
4/3/2015 16:26:16   
Gorillo Titan
Member

No had a problem with volt engineer hitting for 3000 damage when he first came out?

Just change flux to the hit combos and regular attack cards and remove it's when used on the other stuff. Chaos flux super charge is awesome though keep that.
Post #: 80
4/3/2015 16:49:56   
The Jop
Member

Yeah, that's fine for the amount of energy it costs, but Regen isn't.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 4/3/2015 16:50:39 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 81
4/3/2015 17:23:04   
Ninjaty
Member

quote:

Nothing was ever as game breaking as this. Disregarding balance shows they don't care about players, not not giving a powerful character a ridiculously powerful deck. Nulgath's "Shadow" came out and it's not very good though it should be extremely powerful. Can we please just drop this conversation about how Drakath deserves a severely overpowered card because of the way he's portrayed in another game? Because I just don't agree; balance is much more important to me.

At the time some of the older cards were released, yeah, they were as gamebreaking, if not even more. Unless you don't think it's gamebreaking when players may as well give up upon seeing your character. Remember that "You win" card I've talked about before? Some of the cards we've had before has been just that at the time they were released.

Once upon a time, if you had Greater Heal and some offense as well, you were essentially immortal. Now greater damage can be dealt more efficiently and Greater Heal is just an everyday card.

Raise it one or two energy if necessary, but why not just follow the pattern we've seen before, and simply release more oppertunities to gain the same kind of power. That's how "severely OP" cards were dealt with before.

Like I've said, I'm all in for balance, but that should also mean that characters of a lower rank shouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of ever beating a higher rank. For an apprentice or veteran to even stand a chance against a Legendary isn't exactly balanced either. Drakath is just the first character who lives up to the title of Legendary, in relation to how he deals with lower ranks.

When beholding a fight of Legendary vs Legendary, you as the beholding Apprentice should feel yourself like a lowly weak mortal who's fortunate enough to be witnessing the affairs of gods.



You also have to remember that one of the traits of this game, is that it's intended for a more mature audience than the other AE games. That should also mean that we're ready to hear the truth; we are not all equal in this universe. Some elements will be more powerful than others, and so will some entities. That is the balance of existance.

But most importantly, you want Drakath to be balanced in accordance with current standards, when you should be thinking about future standards. You have to take all future concepts into account before claiming him to be OP, like elemental counters, future CC packs, future characters, actual balance between ranks, etc. .

Remember, this is just beta. You cannot judge the balance accurately at this point, as we still have yet to see it fully introduced.

< Message edited by Ninjaty -- 4/3/2015 17:36:52 >
Post #: 82
4/3/2015 17:35:53   
The Jop
Member

If some elements are outright better than others, why would you ever play anything else? And nothing was ever as broken as Regen. Nothing was ever as much of a jump from the previously best card as Regen is (over twice as efficient as Greater Heal). Higher ranks should have better cards than lower ranks, but they shouldn't always win otherwise that's no fun. Just dominating the game with a chaos legendary is not fun for anyone except maybe the person using it, and even they would get bored. If this is an acceptable deck, they better give Xmas Elf back its original deck.

The game's been in Beta for over 2 years, so that's not really a good point. If they don't work on balance in Beta, they won't work on it for years, if ever.


< Message edited by The Jop -- 4/3/2015 17:39:25 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 83
4/3/2015 17:56:22   
the warden
Member

so no release it looks like:(
I wonder when we will get chaos lords in the game?
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 84
4/4/2015 2:48:52   
The Jop
Member

I already said it's about balance, not free players. I feel like I've repeated myself 10 times because some people didn't read what I wrote in the first place. The cards he has now are almost definitely going to be used on future, free chaos characters. Not balancing the game because you think it's already unbalanced is like not treating a patient because they're already sick, or not giving a homeless person money because they're already poor. Asuka has confirmed that things are being discussed about changing the card, so don't worry, Chaos Drakath won't be obliterating every other character in the game for much longer.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 4/4/2015 2:50:08 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 85
4/4/2015 3:24:08   
Ninjaty
Member

"Asuka has confirmed that things are being discussed about changing the card, so don't worry, Chaos Drakath won't be obliterating every other character in the game for much longer."
@above: So basically, he could end up becoming the single worst treatment any AE character has ever gotten, proving to be the single most disrespectful use of their assets in the history of the company, to the point where they may as well delete him and apologize for the inconvenience. Unless he still retains his well-deserved number 1 spot, I'd say all chance for actual, fair balance, may as well be out the window. He represents the first actually Legendary character, and you have fought to hard to reduce him to nothing compared to what he deserves, when actual balance actually allows for the very things you're fighting against.

I'm hoping the staff comes to their senses, and actually allows him to stay, completely unaltered, and intstead give more Legendary characters what they should have in terms of power. The very word "legendary" refers to an epic scenario or entity that you tell stories and sing songs about, not just a character that can be defeated by ever newcomer that arrives in town. If you don't want Legendaries to actually be Legendary, you cannot claim you're fighting for true balance. Beating a Legendary with anything but a Legendary should be a huge event worthy of celebration, something, just like an actual legend, you'd want to tell your grand grand kids about when you get some.

Balance allows for Drakath to be what he currently is. The only problem is that the other side of the scale hasn't been built yet, and already you're tearing it down before it can be completed. My argument with Beta is perhaps the most important argument I have presented to you, but because you fail to see the bigger picture, you shot it down. So here it is again; nothing is final until we're out of the testing stages. You have to consider, NOT what balance is today, but what it will be tomorrow. You're comparing everything to current standards, when those are not even finalized yet, and when we still have yet to see so much potential from the game.

< Message edited by Ninjaty -- 4/4/2015 3:28:49 >
Post #: 86
4/4/2015 3:38:34   
The Jop
Member

All his other cards are just more energy efficient versions of other elements' cards. So balancing his heal is not intense disrespect or whatever you said. That's overreacting. Saying it's going to be balanced by other stupid powerful cards in the future means nothing, because firstly you don't know that, and secondly that would make all the other characters we've had pointless wastes.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 4/4/2015 3:39:34 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 87
4/4/2015 4:05:28   
Ninjaty
Member

You think it's stupid to take the potential of the future into account, and yet you're already building a skyscraper on a fundament that isn't even finished yet? You just ask for it to come crashing down. Any character worthy of being called Legendary, should by that very title, be someone you'd deserve a huge celebration for defeating. Songs will be sung about you and stories will be told, for you are the one to survive, and now you have something to tell the grand kids about. That is, unless you too are a Legendary, in which case it could still result in an epic, but nevertheless you are expected to be at least somewhat equal.

Right now though, even an apprentice can just casually defeat a Legendary and be on with their day. That my friend, is not balance.

The game as it stands now, is not balanced, and Drakath could be the first step in seeing actual rank balance come into play. Since the game is still in beta, things are not finished, and before we're out of beta, the staff should go back and actually balance out former legendaries. Whether you're fighting a PvP match or just a random encounter, Legendaries should be fearful in their power. You should actually have to climb the tree just to be able to capture them.


Apprentices should be on equal ground with Apprentices, and have an incredibly hard time with Veterans. It should take a minor miracle for them to stand any chance against a Master, and to beat a Legendary should be as close to impossible as can be, without actually being impossible.

Veterans should easily squash Apprentices, be on equal ground with fellow Veterans, have an incredibly hard time with Masters, and require the small miracle for Legendaries.

Etc. etc.


That would be balanced. Naturally, we can have the elements play a role as well, as a means to try and even the odds.
Post #: 88
4/4/2015 4:07:18   
The Jop
Member

What apprentice can casually beat a legendary? You mean with CC? Anyway, there aren't really rank restricted cards, so ranks have to be made better than each other by just using a better mix of cards.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 89
4/4/2015 4:19:20   
dragon lord joseph
Member

Looking at the card "Regen" the cost should be put to 5-7 and making it a 1 of in the deck. Cards to up after you take a "Regen" away would be to add in a "Chaos Plague", "500 Defend", "Chaotic Defense", "Chaos Spikes", or "Reflection". As these would make great sub for a "Regen" as "Chaos Flux" makes any card in the deck playable for free. This would be a fair errata to the card while making it fun to play.
AQW  Post #: 90
4/4/2015 4:20:53   
Asuka
AQW Designer of All Things


 Now I think everyone's a tad confused here, so let me explain

1) Yes, things are being discussed about the current state of chaos. As Ninjaty did say, yes it's still very early, but like Jop also said, we cant have one specific character dominating all the others. this creates a current unnatural unbalance.

2) As things are right now, Regeneration is a little op in it's current state. There's no arguing that. But I am looking into ways this can be reduced while keeping everyone happy and bring it to the table to have it discussed with the others.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 91
4/4/2015 4:25:40   
Ninjaty
Member

quote:

What apprentice can casually beat a legendary? You mean with CC? Anyway, there aren't really rank restricted cards, so ranks have to be made better than each other by just using a better mix of cards.

My Skexis Fiend has been know to take down a few Legendaries in it's time, with and without CC.

It's funny you say that "ranks have to be made better than each other by just using a better mix of cards". Just because that is how it has been up until now, doesn't mean it's the only thing there can be, will be or even should be. You just brought up the idea of rank restricted cards, which sounds like a great concept. It has actually already been partially implemented, since I don't recall any Apprentices starting out with Greater Heal, but it hasn't really been fully defined yet.

Again, nothing regarding balance, or even gameplay, is finalized until we get out of beta. If we push for the completion of rank restriction for certain cards, or even complete decks of custom cards for higher ranks, we could well be getting it. From what I hear, it was the players that got Drakath to OS, along with many other characters we've seen in the past. Surely, since it is us who are going to be playing the game, and since the game is still not officially released, we can be allowed a say in how it should be formed?

I hope they will bring Legendaries up to a Legendary status, and that's partially why I have pushed so much for Drakath to keep what he has. Right now, he is Legendary, he is a huge accomplishment to beat. I'd like for more characters of his power to be introduced. He is a champion of an entire element, the very best it has to offer, so I think it could be entertaining to see other elements receive their appropriate champions as well.

< Message edited by Ninjaty -- 4/4/2015 4:32:57 >
Post #: 92
4/4/2015 4:28:55   
megakyle777
Member

The trick is to make Chaos balence and Drakath balanced, while keeping Drakath very powerful or seeming as such as befitting the champion of Chaos, while making sure he is still defeatable. Personally, I'd just buff the heal cost to a 7 enegy and call it a day. Drakath keeps his power, but to use both heals he needs to use 14 energy, leaving him either 1-2 attacks, and just one special, and only IF he has all 20 energy.

< Message edited by megakyle777 -- 4/4/2015 4:30:31 >
DF  Post #: 93
4/4/2015 4:29:30   
The Jop
Member

If there's a best character for each element or just best in the game, why would you ever use anything else? It just seems to drain the fun out of the game when some people play on godmode and others are constantly beaten through no fault of their own.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 94
4/4/2015 4:36:31   
megakyle777
Member

Actually, scratch that, 8 energy. Drakath keeps his insane healing, but can't really do much else that turn save 1 attack.
DF  Post #: 95
4/4/2015 4:47:40   
Ninjaty
Member

quote:

If there's a best character for each element or just best in the game, why would you ever use anything else? It just seems to drain the fun out of the game when some people play on godmode and others are constantly beaten through no fault of their own.

Because of power progression, which this game is all about. You take a character from a form where it should barely be able to fight, to the point where it may as well have become a demigod. As described in the game FAQ, you are supposed to rank your characters in the wild, not through PvP, so if you go into PvP with a weak character, it is your own fault you end up losing.

This game plays on the strength that we are playing as the given character, not just an imitation of them. If you're playing as a powerful character, you should also have full access to that power, to fully immerse you into the game. If I am fighting as something akin to a god, and I lose to a Frogzard, then that immersion is out the window, and that is not exactly balanced either.

And just having the best character for each element, doesn't mean the character will be unbeatable, but rather that it will have the advantage. Any player seeking challenge will avoid using those characters and simply go for the more challenging option, while players who want to use the power can. Just because the choose to use the power, doesn't mean they are assured victory, especially if fighting a sufficiently skilled opponent. Two Legendary characters of the same element should be about even, but if one of them is the champion, it makes sense to have things a little easier.

Like I said before, balance does not dictate that all things must be equal to one another, but rather that on a universal scale, things about even out. As for where the fun is, that is for the individual player to decide. Some players prefer an easier route, while others prefer to overcome hardships. Myself? I just want my characters, and the characters I fight, to be a fair representation of what they're supposed to be. If I use an Apprentice character and I run into a Legendary, I expect to lose without much of a fight from it's side, and I always feel sad when that isn't the case.

< Message edited by Ninjaty -- 4/4/2015 4:48:31 >
Post #: 96
4/4/2015 5:30:15   
The Jop
Member

The best characters typically cost soul gems, like Chaos Drakath, Queen Aegea, Great Pumpking, etc. Which would mean only paying players would be able to play as demigods, as you said, and the game would by pay-to-win. And no one said Regen was a legendary or Drakath only card, so there could be low rank chaos characters with it in the future. Seems fair to you?

< Message edited by The Jop -- 4/4/2015 5:31:52 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 97
4/4/2015 8:45:14   
Gorillo Titan
Member

Regen isn't as bad as greater heal, Greater heal was the most OP card in game before it got nerfed the fact it healed you 1000 right at use was just OP and the fact queen had two of them and iron hides and you could CC corruption on her was just ungodly strong if greater heal still worked like that chaos drakath would be easily picked off. Now onto the matter of chaos drakath being complelety OP he's strong but not unbeatable I beat a level 20 chaos drakath who had initiative just the other day being used by Axel just to show that the person using it did have good pvp experience.

Just think around the box and try some new strategies the game would be boring if everything could be beat the same way.

You guys kind of need to stop bring up beta its not like it being out of beta would actually change anything at this point MQ is out of beta even finished an entire storyline and isn't doing that amazing at the moment the difference with OS and a lot of the other games is the fact that one its hard as crud to code like it makes no sense for any other coders to work on OS. Learning all the code then not being able to use it on other games would just be a waste of time. Even warlic has problems coding it at times.

And I can guarantee this isn't the first time someone has complained about a card when poison first came out and people learned that could double or triple lay it on enemies hitting 600 and 900 per turn I bet they wanted it nerfed to. When freeze came out and it was completely broken when two of the were in the deck people complained enough to make sure freeze was never double placed again which leads to some player "dylligraphy" complaining that a character needs to be released with double freeze but its to late now so many people complained it won't happen.

You guys just need to wait and see what happens cause its not even like your forced to fight people who use chaos drakath some of you don't even competitively pvp for the leaderboard so you wont even accidentally fight against a chaos drakath. Its not even like chaos drakath can be found in game and have an ungodly strong deck like the first bosses in game had killing people before they could even get a 10 charge.

Now say all of this to say this wait for a couple releases before you get all bent out of shape trying to balance a game that isn't balanced to even begin with you have to be on a honor system to even trust someone is the level they say or even have them let you go first in a fight.


Its really annoying you keep saying the best characters cost sgs which isn't true at all you leave out the free characters that are very powerful such as volt engineer, bavaria master, master drakath, clan king, soul wyvern, tyrant moose, Earth ram, cosmoa, etc... Its pretty balanced if I say so myself.


They have several very strong free characters in this game. The lack of variety is the problem since nulgath only seems to want to draw shadow characters the other elements don't get a chance to get anything but once every blue moon.


Well if they plan to change regen instead of limiting that still means chaos can have two regens in its deck when the time comes and do to chaos lack of a charge card regen can't cost more than so much so I predict regen will still be capable of being used at least twice in one turn if they change the energy.


< Message edited by Gorillo Titan -- 4/4/2015 8:55:47 >
Post #: 98
4/4/2015 8:55:45   
The Jop
Member

It does more damage instantly sure, but it's not many matches where only that 1 turn will count. Matches typically take several turns, allowing regen to play out more or less. It also cost 2 more energy than Regen, though it does 600 less points of healing.

Poison was nerfed - from 3 turns of 1200 damage to 4 turns.

I'm not saying there are no good free characters, but a lot of the best characters are SG. Just to take some better evolutions from the list of good free characters you had: Chaos Drakath, Cosoma Titan. And for the seventieth time, it's not about free player versus SG users, it's about balance. My point was that this broken card would be on free characters in the future so there would be an imbalance. Please read my posts before you respond.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 4/4/2015 8:57:07 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 99
4/4/2015 9:06:19   
Gorillo Titan
Member

If they wanna make it balance they need to change a lot of other cards that have been around that are just waste of slots in decks then such as frostbite, tree of life, the 500 pierce cards, deathflow, if it needs to be balance how your saying it no cards should have to be limited in amount before they can be added to a deck raise the cost of freeze so it can only be used 1 per turn and add more to decks.

How can you even tell whats balanced when only one character has been released? Headless horsemen was OP when he first came out.
Post #: 100
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