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Balance between base stats?

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5/21/2015 13:55:35   
SS
Member
 

 Wouldn't it be nice if the base stats were more or less balanced? I mean strength now became totally useless, it generates too little damage, no protection at all, and (almost) no skills get improved with it (as a result - nobody uses strength as a damage generator any more, and neither the skills that get improved with it). All people use it now is for focus. Dexterity, technology and support are much more useful: for generating damage and protection at the same time (except support, of course, but it compensates by improving a lot of skills), improve other skills, and are generally relied upon in a build. Well, you can't rely on strength any more, which is kind of sad. I know many people thought strength was overpowered (although it wasn't, a strength build was just the easiest way to play, not the most successful), but now it is utterly useless. Will it remain like this?..
Post #: 1
5/21/2015 15:41:18   
The berserker killer
Member

 
quote:

a strength build was just the easiest way to play, not the most successful


Duddeeee I could not have said it any better. Talk about killing diversity.

quote:

Will it remain like this?..


I've got no idea. I'm debating whether to just quit pvp completely. The gun scale could use some serious work, strength is useless, I just don't know what to do anymore. I feel you man, I've been trying to get people to make a forums to help me stop some of these guys who, I believe, are just trying to ruin the game on purpose, but I don't know anymore.

I leave with this.
quote:

I gave ED about another 5-10 years before this balance update. Now, players will either leave or start cheating by botting in no time. EpicDuel has taken a few steps forward, and has now taken 10 steps back. You can't render the only stat that players have been utilizing for years, completely useless, and expect players to continue playing.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 2
5/21/2015 16:22:12   
Stonehawk
Member

My suggestion about stats is:
1- Strength back to what it was (562 primary with 85 strength, a sword and maxed legendary points) BUT...
2- diminishing returns 85+ on any stat AND further diminishing returns for 125+ (or another value, just an example) on any stats to prevent abusing a single stat for superb damage on aux, gun or any other weapon.
it means, for example, a gun, instead of increasing 1 damage for each dex, after 125 dex increases 1 or 1,5 damage for each 2 points on dex.

This would prevent not only STRENGTH abuse (which everyone used to complain) but any other stat abusing the respective weapon damage with too high stats.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 3
5/21/2015 18:12:57   
.Lord Ginger.
Member

Strength was perfectly fine. I agree!!!
AQW Epic  Post #: 4
5/27/2015 13:32:53   
SS
Member
 

 Weird to see no one arguing with my suggestion (unprecedented, I might say), seems like strength has been nerfed so much that everybody agrees it's not right.
Post #: 5
5/27/2015 17:08:30   
zer00x
Member

It was nerfed several times because secondary improved with str (which made no sense, im glad they changed secondary damage to dex) so yeah, strenght needs to be revised in my opinion
AQW  Post #: 6
6/21/2015 3:03:36   
SS
Member
 

 Just realized an interesting thing today: dexterity is my highest skill (not by much, I have not been seduced by dex abuse, no matter how much the dev team encourages it), yet my sidearm does the least damage of all my weapons. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying sidearm damage needs to be increased, dex abusers are already OP enough, but there's another clear stat imbalance here, the sidearm is only usable for dealing damage if you invest a lot in dexterity. Like abuse dexterity, or forget about your sidearm.

L.E.

I looked now at my other stats and was quite surprised to see that:
- my second highest stat is strength - primary deals the second lowest damage of my weapons;
- the third highest stat is technology - my robot deals the third lowest damage (or second highest); and
- my lowest stat is support - but my auxiliary deals the highest damage of all my weapons.

Weird, ha?

Too bad only one attack skill improves with support (even if it's a multi-shot one), since it gives most return damage-wise. Technology is the second, but you are limited in abusing it for damage by the focus requirement and the lack of multi-shot skills. Strength... 3-rd lowest damage return, but no good skills improving with it at all. None! Zero! Zilch! Nada! Finally, dex is the last by weapon damage increase, BUT! you have several good skills improving with it, especially if you are a mage: one multi-shot, another one with a chance to stun.
Now combine these facts with the skills that also increase your defensive abilities and choose the obvious winner. If you did - welcome to the herd.

< Message edited by SS -- 6/21/2015 3:34:49 >
Post #: 7
6/21/2015 8:35:48   
Stonehawk
Member

@SS

Dexterity: If you invest high in dex, your tech will be lower = higher chance of being deflected. (I know, it's a luck factor but anyway it's kind of a handicap)
Support: Highest damage? High chance to crit? 3 turns cooldown weapon and no defenses increasing. (two little handicaps)
Technology: You need balance to make this weapon (robot) do high damage. (it's a handicap too, prevents using full tech and owning with robot damage)
Strength: Weapon can be used every turn. But it has the lowest damage. AND it can be blocked. AND it doesn't improve crits or defenses. All handicaps here.

In my opinion, the most unbalanced stat here is Strength.

Well, I just found out (maybe everyone already knew that or not?) primary damage scales with strength exactly same way auxilliary damage scales with support, except that primary has -40 damage.

At 85 point, this is the damage of each respective weapon at lvl 40, no legendary points:
Strength: 516-548
Dexterity: 475-500
Technology: 530-562
Support: 556-588

Some conclusions I've made about their respective weapons, I may be right or not:
1- Dexterity is the weakest weapon at 85, because weapon has the 2nd lowest cooldown and increases chance to block
2- Strength is the 2nd weakest because it has no cooldown and to prevent repetitive strike users to win while AFK (a.k.a bots, lol).
3- Technology has the 2nd stronge weapon because it increases resistance and needs focus (balance) to be used, preventing robot from doing OP damages by maxing this stat.
4- Support is the strongest weapon damage because it has highest cooldown and doesn't improve defenses at all.


It's hard to find a solution, specially because of ranks. If we try to think of it...
Primary damage is too low for it's lack of effects that helps in battle. But increasing it would make it too strong for max ranked people and most people doesn't want that (even with all drawbacks I pointed before). Maybe increasing 10 damage would kinda fix it (it's almost no difference, not sure about the numbers, sigh), and still making it lower than it was before its nerf (from 562 before update (rank 10) to 556 (rank 10))
Sidearm has really low damage at 85, encouraging people to abuse this stat. But if we think of ranks, 515 (rank 10) is kinda good damage for a 2 turn cooldown weapon that improves with a stat that makes you block and increases your defense.......

Alright... I'm done here, I'm getting confused, lol. Sorry.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 8
6/21/2015 12:29:18   
SS
Member
 

 You might have somewhat of a point, but only if you ignore skills. As soon as you add skills into this equation, you see that strength confirms its last place, as it improves no useful skills at all. While dexterity springs high above, improving 2 skills at once for mages.

So, to sum it up:
Strength - low-medium damage, no bonuses for anything, no useful skills improved at all;
Dexterity - lowest damage, bonuses to defense and block, improves 2 highly useful damage skills + one defensive (Technician)
Technology - medium damage (but it requires focus, so no abusing), bonuses to resistance and deflect, improves several usable but not very useful damage skills (plasma bolt, plasma cannon, super charge, surgical strike)
Support - high damage, bonus to critical strikes chance, improves one highly useful damage skill + lots of defensive and other useful skills.

Thus, 2 stats can be successfully abused, and dexterity offers substantially more advantages than support. Technology can still be used, but not abused. Strength is useless.

< Message edited by SS -- 6/21/2015 12:42:07 >
Post #: 9
6/21/2015 20:45:33   
VanitySixx
Member

I don't think strength needs to be changed much or at all really. I'm a strength Tech Mage and I win around 65-70% of my battles while doing it fairly quickly (30-35 wins an hour in 1v1). I was also a strength Bounty Hunter using blades, poison, and cheap shot and won around 60% of my battles also fairly quickly at around 28-33 wins per hour. Strength is perfectly fine the way it is. It isn't meant to make someone have a high percentage build. Its meant for fast battles. I deal a great amount of damage as a Tech Mage and with 1,500 health, I can take damage as well. I have two sources of physical skills that improve with strength (bludgeon and fire scythe) that I use when a person is capable of using a resistance shield or technician. Or I can malfunction and assert my true strength against those who have no shield.

Strength is fine. I'm seeing more types of builds than I saw before the nerfing. The developers did good on this one.
AQW Epic  Post #: 10
6/21/2015 21:51:49   
Lord Machaar
Member

Exactly, thanks for your words, as finally someone says that strenght builds are meant for fast wins and not the best winning ratio as the logic goes:
Fast wins - Lower winning ratio.
Slow wins - Bigger winning ratio as you invest more time into that.

Once you break this logic, you break the game, and everyone will abuse the flaw.
I won't say that strenght doesn't need a buff, but the point is clear here, the buff will be limited to give "all" classes an option for strenght builds, I face now adays strenght TMs and they look like they are doing great, this doesn't apply to all strenght builds of other classes, and that's why there will be a buff to certain skills.

http://puu.sh/ixW6K/4261bcd184.jpg
I'm sure this is the build you are talking about, it has a great combination of powerful skills that basically work against any build, physical attacks, blockable and non-blockable, two energy sources and one energy draining skill, this build has assets to be a great build, add some ranks in there, and voila.

The idea here is clear, even after the buff of certain strenght builds, you won't do 90% or 95% winning ratio with strenght or any other fast builds as that breaks the rule up there, therefore I hope most of you adapt with this fact, want fast wins? gotta make some sacrifices, which one of them is dropping the winning ratio.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 6/21/2015 22:23:17 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 11
6/22/2015 1:16:23   
Remorse
Member

I think they should add some extra benefits to strength, however the change of sidearms improving with dex is a really good change.


Possible ideas to make strength more appealing:

- Make strength reduce your chance to be stunned, also makes more sense this way.
- If they split block and deflection so that strength increases your the chance to block and deflect the opponent, but does not improve your chance to not be blocked/deflected on the opponent. Dex and technology will then still decrease your chance to be blocked and deflected on the opponent.

Epic  Post #: 12
6/22/2015 3:01:03   
SS
Member
 

 Sorry, but I can't argue with people that have no idea what they are talking about. Bludgeon and fire scythe improve with strength? Go read the description of your own (or are they?) skills a little.
And what is this "quick wins" theory? Some new term of strength abusers (and not only, I guess all of them apply)? I don't care about that. I don't care about abusing a stat at all. Everyone can do that, abusing a stat is the easiest way to play, you don't have to think, you don't adapt to your enemy (simply because you can't), you just follow a sequence of moves that barely changes and accept from the beginning that you win matches against certain builds and lose against others that are covered against your strong points and can use your weaknesses. That's good for botting, but I'm here to have fun playing.

I am writing here from the point of view of the balanced player, who is not at all interested in abusing any stat, but is looking for a build that will allow him to adapt to every enemy with most success. In what concerns me, abuses should be discouraged as much as possible, for example by imposing bigger skill requirements. Like maybe using focus not only for robot damage, but for some other things. And in the case of a balanced player, strength is just a requirement for focus, an investment with almost no return. Stat points spent for nothing. So maybe it's worth increasing return only in the lower range so that abusers gain nothing, or maybe there is another way to make things work, but the actual situation is only stimulating stat abusing (especially dex) and discouraging balanced players.
Post #: 13
6/22/2015 18:21:10   
Stonehawk
Member

@Remorse

I agree with strength decreasing chance to be stunned. I think strength should affect something different in the battle directly, just like all other stats do. This is what I mean:

Support increases chance to crit;
Dexterity increases chance block;
Technology increases chance to deflect;
Str increases .....?

I'd say increase rage damage on rage too (but filling bar slower, since support increases rage bar filling), 'cause since you're strong, you hit harder when you're raging. but... nah, it would be overpowered, wouldn't it? And support kinda increases rage damage, doesn't it? Anyway, I accept suggestions of an effect for strength, it would balance stats since all of them would have their own and unique effect...
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 14
6/23/2015 1:02:53   
Lord Machaar
Member

Slowing down dex builds will also help strenght builds as strenght improves attacks that are blockable, facing a dex TMs with 166 + dex and technician and an assimilation would probably desactivate any strenght build. Dex builds now preform better than any other build, they have the possibility to go full tank with lvl 1 technician and massive amount of dex, so all they need to do is heal loop and rage plasma rain that deals 500 damage.
MQ Epic  Post #: 15
6/23/2015 2:14:52   
King Bling
Member

quote:

rage plasma rain that deals 500 damage.


Not really, it deals way more, like 600+ in 2vs2, 650 to 700 in 1vs1. And with poison bot.
Post #: 16
6/26/2015 11:28:23   
SS
Member
 

 I think you meant 750-800 damage, and often more, at least that's what most of the dex abusers I've seen do.
Post #: 17
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