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change underdog

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6/16/2015 19:27:59   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 The game is basically a luck factor game and these luck factors are based off of stats. What that means is that two people can have the same exact builds, and the one with underdog will have a higher chance to start first, deflect, block, and crit.

Here's my two suggestions:

1) Dont Nerf it. Instead just change it to affect Primary, Sidearm, Aux, Robot, Defense and Resistance. That eradicates luck factors without nerfing underdog mode, and I'm sure you can find a way to scale it appropriately.

And

2) In its current state UnderDog mode allows your opponent to have 4 passive cores, and nearly 4 plus 6 cores (depending on your rank vs the opponent). Thats a total of 8 passive cores, with an addition of luck factors. What I'm suggesting is making the UnderDog core sellable at vendbot as a Passive Armor core. That too will also be fair without nerfing underdog mode
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 1
6/16/2015 19:49:39   
Lord Machaar
Member

Underdog mode just showed a small portion of what could happen if we remove ranks, players came back to play the game, different builds, different classes.
Anyways, I know this is a case closed, whoever is in charge of balance witnessed these changes and the huge impact it had on the game, therefore they said more than once, this mode won't be nerfed/changed/tweaked, although it might buffed.
Looking forwared for implementing the UM in 2vs2 and jugg.
MQ Epic  Post #: 2
6/16/2015 20:05:04   
Dual Thrusters
Member

First I have a question. Do underdogs still gain a boost even if you have ranks, but you have not bought them, or applied them to your character? If so, I suggest to have it so unnapplied ranks do not affect underdog mode. That way, high rankers can choose whether to use their ranks or not depending on their build.

quote:

The beserker killer said:
In its current state UnderDog mode allows your opponent to have 4 passive cores, and nearly 4 plus 6 cores (depending on your rank vs the opponent). Thats a total of 8 passive cores, with an addition of luck factors. What I'm suggesting is making the UnderDog core sellable at vendbot as a Passive Armor core. That too will also be fair without nerfing underdog mode


And what is this supposed to accomplish?
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 3
6/16/2015 20:12:22   
Mother1
Member

Not supported

There are more than just ranked players this is affecting. This is affect everyone at all levels. What about players who aren't on the same level and are at a stat disadvantage that aren't level 40's? changing this will put those players at a disadvantage seeing as underdog mode for them closes the stat gap between then seeing as you get 4 stats (one on each stat per level) and when you level up you get 4 more stats and a skill point to play with.

Stat wise this helps those players.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 6/16/2015 20:13:00 >
Epic  Post #: 4
6/16/2015 20:14:50   
Lord Machaar
Member

quote:

First I have a question. Do underdogs still gain a boost even if you have ranks, but you have not bought them, or applied them to your character? If so, I suggest to have it so unnapplied ranks do not affect underdog mode. That way, high rankers can choose whether to use their ranks or not depending on their build.


Best. Idea. Ever.
Why not implementing it? Whether you unlocked X rank or not, keep the option for the player to equip it or not. And then we shall see if a rank 80 player will give up his ranks, if he doesn't, let's buff the underdog mode.
MQ Epic  Post #: 5
6/16/2015 20:33:23   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Game restrictions cant allow that. Well ill keep trying. Ranks improve primary, aux, sidearm, def, res and robot.....the purpose of underdog mode was to close the gap between lower rank players and higher rank players....underdog mode should improve primary, aux, sidearm, def, res and robot. Thats only fair.

It can be scaled appropriately to give the same dmg advantages of the stat advantages.

In its current state underdog mode allows:
1) direct stat advantages
2) stronger primary
3) stronger aux
4) stronger sidearm
5) stronger robot
6) higher defense
7) higher resistance
8) increased chance to block
9) increased chance to deflect

10) increased chance to go first
11) increased chance to crit
12)increased chance to connect strike
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 6
6/16/2015 20:49:47   
Mother1
Member

@ TBK

If that was the case they why is legendary mode not for just legendary players an their opponents? Cause last I checked it has been applied to all players within the game not just legendary players. Changing up underdog mode will have a negative affect on those players not within legendary range as well in 1 vs 1.
Epic  Post #: 7
6/16/2015 21:02:31   
AQWorldsFarmer
Member

quote:

quote:



First I have a question. Do underdogs still gain a boost even if you have ranks, but you have not bought them, or applied them to your character? If so, I suggest to have it so unnapplied ranks do not affect underdog mode. That way, high rankers can choose whether to use their ranks or not depending on their build.



Best. Idea. Ever.
Why not implementing it? Whether you unlocked X rank or not, keep the option for the player to equip it or not. And then we shall see if a rank 80 player will give up his ranks, if he doesn't, let's buff the underdog mode.


Exactly!!!This is a perfect idea. And to go with Machaar, I agree, I bet they won't give up their ranks just so UM wont be applied to their opponent. That is the true testament: Talk vs Action.

< Message edited by AQWorldsFarmer -- 6/16/2015 21:03:19 >
Post #: 8
6/16/2015 21:06:39   
Lord Machaar
Member

TBK:
Do ranks give these things? Yes/No/More.
1) direct stat advantages. Yes more. 3 - 4 times more.
2) stronger primary. Yes more. 3 - 4 times more.
3) stronger aux. Yes more. 3 - 4 times more.
4) stronger sidearm. Yes more. 3 - 4 times more.
5) stronger robot. Yes more. 3 - 4 times more.
6) higher defense. Yes more. 3 - 4 times more.
7) higher resistance. Yes more. 3 - 4 times more..
8) increased chance to block. No, logical.
9) increased chance to deflect. No, logical.
10) increased chance to go first. No, logical.
11) increased chance to crit. No, logical.

From 1 to 7 (7 factors) are still in the favor of the higher rank player, on top of that, these factors are static, which means, they will have an influence in all battles. From factor 1 to 5, more aux/robot/primary/sidearm damage (150 more damage) means that the higher rank player will deal 150 more damage each 4 turns (4 attacks), multiplied by number of rounds (10 rounds = ~ 300 more damage, 20 rounds = ~600 more damage.)
factors 5-6 the higher rank player will also receive less damage (roughly 30 less damage each turn), multiplied by number of rounds, (10 rounds = ~ 240 less damage taken. 20 rounds = ~ 480 less damage taken).

From 8 to 11 ( 4 factors) are in the favor of the lower rank player, which aren't like the other 7 factors static, they are based off luck, they might or might not happen, and when they happen, they are here to maintain the battle competitive, where each crit/block/def/going first can equal the huge damage dealt by the higher rank player, and also the less damage taken by the same player.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 6/16/2015 21:22:28 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 9
6/16/2015 21:22:26   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 It doesn't matter if its applied to all levels, this seems like a good fix thats only being counteracted by low ranking players who got a taste of power and increased luck and dont want to give it up.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 10
6/16/2015 21:42:34   
Lord Machaar
Member

Mathematically, the mode is totally fair, in battles, the mode is doing great. Case closed, if you are mad for 2-3% winning ratio loss, you can get over it. Next thing is 2vs2 and jugg UM.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 6/16/2015 21:45:15 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 11
6/16/2015 21:52:19   
AQWorldsFarmer
Member

I can't wait for jugg UM, even though Ranloth said it wont be implemented for a long time.
Post #: 12
6/16/2015 22:25:29   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Thanks for the input but ill continue posting and I wont get over it
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 13
6/16/2015 23:20:45   
Ranloth
Banned


 Underdog Mode will not be removed, or nerfed in any way, shape or form. System is in place to improve matchmaking at all levels and not just aimed at Ranks - think about the bigger picture, and not a small group of players; you're not the only ones playing the game.

This is final.
AQ Epic  Post #: 14
6/16/2015 23:25:02   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Its not nerfing it at all. If UnderDog Mode grants a player +4 res which may lead to +16 resistance, then just have it increase his resistance instead oh his luck factor (tech). That's all im saying. Not nerfing it whatsoever. Heck, you can make that +20 and its still better than luck factors.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 15
6/18/2015 6:41:12   
King Bling
Member

Supported, I have been fighting and so far I have been killed by even 38's, reason? Rage bot deflection for no reason, getting critted, blocked randomly in the start of the match, 18 support starting first, hell even if I have 73 support, 47+18+6+2, I think they shouldnt give the first strike chance on bases of dog thing, cannot use support because all support builds start before me, in 2vs2 despite having the highest support I go 3rd or 4th, if dog comes 4th for sure.
Using tank build some random support build crits 4 turns in a row, going 1000 health, fighting tank who deflects every rage off of pyro, deflecting gun, aux, the luck factors have increased a lot as compared to before the dog turning on. Well berserker all we can do is wait till they rank up and experience the same.

OR implement Machaar's idea, there should be an option of not using the ranks you have gained, i.e if your 100 ranks and want to invest into just defns/resis then you should be considered rank 20 in the eyes of the dog, and the enemy be buffed/ unbuffed according to it. This should help those who dont have credits to buy slots or want to be the dog and not get insulted by doggy.
Post #: 16
6/18/2015 11:21:05   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 If we can remove our ranks, let us. I seriously wont mind that.

And thanks for understanding king. I'm not talking about nerfing udogmode players in anyway. Just eradicating the luck factor part. I understand they want weaker players to start winning more but they should rely more on their skill instead of their luck.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 17
6/18/2015 11:29:22   
King Bling
Member

Lol bido to be now june 26, the last DNS about bido was may 26, so they dragged it for a month, and still no balance changes, meh this game is dieing literally.
Post #: 18
6/18/2015 11:37:53   
Mother1
Member

@ TBK

If I remember correctly sometime ago the staff literally mentioned the lower level players when battling higher level players needed all the luck they could get so I am guessing that is why they choose to give stats instead of solid numbers like they do with legendary ranks.

Also removing that would indeed be nerfing underdog mode because "IT AFFECTS ALL LEVELS NOT JUST LEGENDARY PLAYERS AND THEIR OPPONENTS!

For those not in legendary range it closes the gap of power that higher level players have and makes all the fights regardless of level fair.

This change for a smaller group of players will in fact make the larger group (Everyone who isn't a legendary player or fighting them) suffer and throw battles back to being unequal for those players.
Epic  Post #: 19
6/18/2015 20:06:23   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Its not nerfing underdog....its removing the luck factor between the players. Im not just saying this because I'm a legendary player, I'm talking about all players. PVP shouldn't rely solely on luck, nor should a large majority of pvp be luck based. At least if ita scaled to grant the Lower lvl player with something like +12 primary damage, itd be more fair and less luck based.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 20
6/18/2015 20:57:12   
Mother1
Member

@ TBK

Stats affect everything where as flat bonus only affect certain areas. The stats underdog mode players get help power up their skill trees so they can have a better chance of fighting. you give them flat bonus and that extra boost is gone. So yes it is nerfing the mode no matter how you say it.

It also as I said once again makes lower level players who fight higher level player go back to being on uneven ground once again.

Remember a level 20 has 20 less stats than a level 25. A level 21 has 4 less stats than a level 22. Underdog mode currently gives the lower level the extra stats so they can fight with the stats of the higher level opponent.

No flat bonus can give them that. That is what you keep failing to see.

Any player who fights a higher level player is already at not only a skill point disadvantage but a stat disadvantage. This mode make it so those player only have to deal with the skill point disadvantage.

Epic  Post #: 21
6/18/2015 21:51:58   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Alright, so let me get this straight.....you guys completely understand that UMode affects luck and RNG in a great way yet youre fine with that? If thats the case just let me know so I can get some clarification.

The mode makes players only have to deal with the skill point disadvantage right? Then it also makes ranked players deal with a stat disadvantage.

Flat bonuses can be fair and can make up for stat bonuses. Prime example:

Rank 1 character Build. FAKE NUMBERS. IM ONLY USING RANKS BECAUSE IM FAMILIAR MORE WITH LVL 40 STATS:

52+35
52+35
52+14
52+0

Primary dmg 562
Sidearm dmg 562
Aux dmg 550
Robot dmg 530
Defense 300
Res 330

Build with UDOG MODE

52+35+5
52+35+6
52+14+6
52+0+5

Primary dmg 570
Sidearm dmg 570
Aux dmg 562
Robot dmg 542
Defense 312
Res 344

WHAT IM SUGGESTING (NEW UDOG MODE)
52+35
52+35
52+14
52+0

Primary dmg 570
Sidearm dmg 570
Aux dmg 562
Robot dmg 542
Defense 312
Res 344

No change in luck factors. With some testing those numbers can even be increased more since they are flat damage which should close the gap between players. Besides, if we're so focused on closing the gap between players then why not just get rid of Leveling up all together? This has to be the only game ive ever known that tries to make weak people stronger.





< Message edited by The berserker killer -- 6/18/2015 22:03:42 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 22
6/19/2015 15:19:13   
King Bling
Member

Shego do you even know what your talking? I have fought with some f5 rank 1-10, being rank 50+, having 900 health f5, I get deflected on and on and on to such an extent I feel like ****, when my enemy is about to die, I rage bot and the next thing I know is it is deflected and I lose the game, and not just one or twice in 2 to 3 battles, but to such an extent, I returned to farming npcs atm.
Defls, crits, blocks unnecessary and bs, double defl robot block aux defl making me lose games due to mere luck factors, this is Fing up the game so much, makes me angry and want to kill dog.
Post #: 23
6/19/2015 17:47:23   
Mother1
Member

@ King Bling

You are only thinking of it on the ranked players scale. Look at it outside of just yourself.

This mode has finally brought balance to all the unfair fights that have been going on since alpha. There had been a ton of complaints about this since back then and now we finally get that problem solved and now ranked players want it gone because it is hurting their ratio's.

Sorry but even if changing this mode would help me more against lower level/ranked players I won't throw the mass majority who are finally getting fair fights stat wise under the boss for the sake of myself.

If this mode only affected legendary players then I would support this change but sadly it doesn't so I can't support it.
Epic  Post #: 24
6/19/2015 17:59:39   
King Bling
Member

First ED introduces legendary mode to entertain people, some are some aint
Then ED introduces doggy mode to entertain the unentertained people, some are some aint

Then why introduce legendary mode in the first place if they wanna give em power then strip them of it, bs though.
I suggest to remove legendary mode.

And even before doggy mode there was no problem with low level people so it doesnt concern them at all.
Post #: 25
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