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Why ED is failing at balance

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8/18/2015 15:29:18   
Thylek Shran
Member

Its not the ending support for Flash by Adobe or a changing game market.
Its the fail in balancing EpicDuelīs PVP balance and busting the community by missing better faction features.
Also 2 of 3 PVP modes are broken since Omega and the establishment of Legendary power ranks (Juggernaut, 2vs2).

PVP things that are known to be overpowered since Gamma and early Omega phase (2-4 years ago):

- The violet cheater guns: Azraelīs Will core (laughable energy cost for alot tactical power) - This core never should had been released !
- Celtic Cleaver
- Health Points (since Agility got removed with Omega)
- Strike combined with high Strenght = uber damage EVERY turn while blocks are rare even with low Dexterity
- Artillery Strike combined with high Support (makes Support Mercs OPed)
- Bludgeon, Fire Scythe, Double Strike, Cheap Shot (especially Bludgeon which can counter defensive buffs most easily at laughable and hardly counterable energy cost)
- Infernal Android (Infernal Overload way OPed)
- Bounty Hunters, Tactical Mercenaries, Blood Mages, and now Mercenaries in general, because they have all skill based energy control on just one skill (AND TURN) instead of two
- Plasma Armor, Mineral Armor and Hybrid Armor not able to be debuffed with Azraelīs Borg (Heart Attack core) even that this is unlogical and known to be unbalanced
- Blood Shield 5 turn duration (TLM) which is the only defensive buff with a that long turn duration
- Most strenght related cores
- Legendary ranks especially when being combined with tank and Strenght/HP builds
- Eternal Protection (+15 Defense/Resistance)

- Actually its especially Strenght-HP Tech Mages which are way OPed as they have uber energy control,
uber damage, uber defensive buff circumvention, and Technology debuff abilities.


Things that are known to be underpowered:

- Stun rate of Overload and Stun Grenade and their respective energy cost (increase stun rate to 30% or lower energy cost!)
- Reflex Boost / Technician
- TM and BM classes as Deadly Shot (good for all mage builds) got replaced by Fire Scythe in Omega which is only good for strenght builds
- Alot robots like Assault Bot and Azraelīs Bot
- Crictical hit rate (related to support) - Critical hits of high support builds (non Artillery Strike mercs) happen to rarely to compensate the weakness in other stats
- Eternal Enhance (+2 to all stats) should be buffed to +3 to all stats


Thread title edited to make it more constructive instead of deragatory. Thread titles are important because they can set the tone for discussion - and we want discussion rather than trolling, flaming, adding nothing useful.
Please keep this in mind for future threads. Thanks!
~M4B

< Message edited by Melissa4Bella -- 8/19/2015 17:52:03 >
DF Epic  Post #: 1
8/18/2015 16:24:52   
Lord Machaar
Member

quote:

Its not the ending support for Flash by Adobe or a changing game market.
Its the fail in balancing EpicDuelīs PVP balance and busting the community by missing better faction features.

We can't neglect the ending of Adobe Flash and mobile market's rise. This isn't said by AE only, it is a world wide known fact, proved and confirmed by market experts. When numbers/statistics speak, opinions go directly to the bin.
Ofcourse, this isn't the only reason ED and other AE/World browser games in general are going extinct, but, it is indeed a reason that has the bigger impact.

We've faced each other today in 2 1vs1 battles, I wasn't going to reply to this post until I found the relation between all of your critics and the build you were using. You can't blame balance if you can't have 90% win ratio with a high support TM build. Some classes are forbidden from using X builds, you can't use a support BM build and expect a good wining ratio nor a high dexterity TLM build.

After all, I don't find this a problem, each class has its field of expertise, some can run high dexterity builds while some can't, some can run high support builds while some can't, but this isn't problem not because of this, but because all classes atleast have 1 or 2 builds that work, not the case nowadays, yet that's why we are talking about a buff to mercenaries' static smash to make this possible.

I will reply to your post pretending that I haven't seen your build today and pretending that your post is coming from a player that subjectively decided to give his point of view, rather than replying while putting in my head the fact that you wrote this post because your high support TM build didn't work.
quote:

- The violet cheater guns: Azraelīs Will core (laughable energy cost for alot tactical power) - This core never should had been released !

I agree. Especially when they were available for varium players only. But the past is past.
quote:

- Strike combined with high Strenght = uber damage EVERY turn while blocks are rare even with low Dexterity

Strenght was nerfed. (Can't help it but support builds in general are encountered by this type of builds, high support TM build is no exception.)
quote:

- Infernal Android (Infernal Overload way OPed)

Everyone agrees, yet I'm sure no one agrees on how to fix it.
quote:

- Bounty Hunters, Tactical Mercenaries, Blood Mages, and now Mercenaries in general, because they have all skill based energy control on just one skill (AND TURN) instead of two

This is called variety, and since Tech mage class is not mentioned here which confirms my words, I don't know if you are saying that having one energy control skill is a good thing or a bad thing, but anyways, TLM have 2 energy controling skills, 1 of them will never be used, so when a TLM faces a TM, TMs will always have the upper hand (energy-wise). Mercenaries literally have an enhanced version of assimilatio, therefore in a 1vs1 battle, TMs will always have more energy, against all classes in general.
quote:

- Plasma Armor, Mineral Armor and Hybrid Armor not able to be debuffed with Azraelīs Borg (Heart Attack core) even that this is unlogical and known to be unbalanced
- Blood Shield 5 turn duration (TLM) which is the only defensive buff with a that long turn duration

Mineral armor and Hybrid armor are literally the worst shields a non-5 focus player can have, why? because they are related to how much defense/resistance you got, I'm quite sure a high support/strenght build doesn't have much of that.
Blood shield has 5 turns duration for a reason, this skill cannot be used when you have low HP and your opponent is about to rage, unlike technician which is used by TMs, a class that has plenty of energy to use this skill as many times as wanted.
quote:

- Most strenght related cores
- Legendary ranks especially when being combined with tank and Strenght/HP builds
- Eternal Protection (+15 Defense/Resistance)

Everyone agrees, bottom line, how to fix it? Legendary ranks combined with anything is a bad thing, I bet you wouldn't do a 40 % winning ratio with that high suppport TM build you were using if not for your ranks.

quote:

- Stun rate of Overload and Stun Grenade and their respective energy cost (increase stun rate to 30% or lower energy cost!)
- Reflex Boost / Technician
- TM and BM classes as Deadly Shot (good for all mage builds) got replaced by Fire Scythe in Omega which is only good for strenght builds
- Alot robots like Assault Bot and Azraelīs Bot
- Crictical hit rate (related to support) - Critical hits of high support non Artillery Strike mercs happen to rarely to compensate the weakness in other stats
- Eternal Enhance (+2 to all stats) should be buffed to +3 to all stats

- Stun rate was reduced for a reason. I do however agree that stun grenade is totally useless when we are talking about TLMs, and overload when we are talking about BMs.
- Technician? Really? A 160 dexterity techmage who can use a level 1 technician with 90 energy that gives +50 technology for 4 turns is not OP?
- BM is underpowered, if you are saying that TMs are, then you are contradicting with what you've said before.
quote:

- Actually its especially Strenght-HP Tech Mages which are way OPed as they have uber energy control,
uber damage, uber defensive buff circumvention, and Technology debuff abilities.

- Everyone agrees that support TLMs are doing good, some say they are OP but I don't, buffing the crit rate would probably make these builds OP, so we need to look at the bigger picture rather than judging some skills/cores on the game based on 1 build or one case. We should always look at the etreme cases, whether the stronger ones or weaker ones.
- On paper, compared to eternal protection, eternal enhance is not weaker, yet the problem is in stat progression, all stats progression diminish at high rates, rendering this core weaker, compared to eternal protection that is constant no matter how much stats you have. Also, eternal protection works with all builds unlike eternal enhance which doesn't, if you use eternal enhance with a support build, you would have +2 strenght stats wasted, a thing that doesn't happen when using eternal protection.


< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 8/18/2015 16:41:53 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 2
8/18/2015 17:06:34   
8x
Member

It's because it turned into AQW. No offense to the devs.
Epic  Post #: 3
8/18/2015 18:14:38   
Uchiha Sarada
Banned


 Machaar:
quote:

TM and BM classes as Deadly Shot (good for all mage builds) got replaced by Fire Scythe in Omega which is only good for strenght builds

quote:


BM is underpowered, if you are saying that TMs are, then you are contradicting with what you've said before.


Here he is just saying that Deadly aim was good for all the BMs And TMs builds and got replaced by a move which is only good for Str builds.
And the current Focus Tech Mages Builds Must be Terrible because I havent seen any player using one and winning other than str dattebane.

quote:

- Actually its especially Strenght-HP Tech Mages which are way OPed as they have uber energy control,
uber damage, uber defensive buff circumvention, and Technology debuff abilities.


What its dumb about the Str TMs is that when with No dex at all, they just spam strike without getting punished with a block for the use of no dex at all against builds with decent amount of dex, they should get punished with blocks.
And Technician Is Fine, Reflex is what needs a buff.

quote:

Alot robots like Assault Bot and Azraelīs Bot

Yes and Gamma bot.

< Message edited by Uchiha Sarada -- 8/18/2015 18:15:12 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 4
8/18/2015 19:10:33   
Mother1
Member

@ Uchiha sarada

Actually my last battle in 2 vs 2 me and my strength TM partner were going against 2 dex TM. During this battle we ended up losing to those dex TM's because of the same thing you wished would happen to strength builds with little dex. In other words my partner got blocked 3 times one of which was his rage.

To be honest it was because of those blocks that they even won because even when he was knocked out I managed to make the match a close one but I lost in the end with my opponent have 4 HP remaining.

So in a nutshell while it may not happen as often as you would like it does happen.
Epic  Post #: 5
8/18/2015 20:08:53   
Uchiha Sarada
Banned
Mother: Please, They were DEX TMs, the blocks are supposed to happen way more often, what im talking about is when a build with decent dex of 60+35 or 55+35 Doesnt even block once against a build with 30 dex that spams strike without getting punished with a block dattebayo, so they might need to buff the block chance somehow.
Of course you and your partner got blocked and its fair because they have like 200 dex.
AQW Epic  Post #: 6
8/18/2015 21:02:00   
Lord Machaar
Member

quote:

Here he is just saying that Deadly aim was good for all the BMs And TMs builds and got replaced by a move which is only good for Str builds.
And the current Focus Tech Mages Builds Must be Terrible because I havent seen any player using one and winning other than str dattebane.


Here is a quote of mine:
quote:

After all, I don't find this a problem, each class has its field of expertise, some can run high dexterity builds while some can't, some can run high support builds while some can't, but this isn't problem not because of this, but because all classes atleast have 1 or 2 builds that work, not the case nowadays, yet that's why we are talking about a buff to mercenaries' static smash to make this possible.


5 Focus TMs are doing just fine, the build is rare not because it is bad, it is rare because the class itself offers better builds, for instance high strenght and high dexterity builds.
Too sad Rayman is banned on the forums, I'm sure he could've contributed to this discussion as he uses this build quite a lot. Yet I can't deny that the build has it flaws, but that's just like any other build, but that doesn't mean it is the main reason for this build going unpopular.

The thing here is, the class has currently 4 possible builds, 2 of them are doing great, 1 is doing just fine, and the last one which is the one that Thylek has tried is not up to the challenge, yet can we consider this a problem, and say that TM is a bad class that need an immediate buff?

Most classes now are linked to one build, 5 focus (BMs and CHs) maximum 2 (TLMs* and BHs**), some classes don't even have an option, for instance mercenaries. So by saying that mercenaries are now OP compared to TMs, well I can't see any logic here.
* TLMs now have 2 great builds, 5 focus and support. Maybe you can consider high strenght builds a possibility too, but I think these builds are mainly used by botters.
** BHs are doing great with 5 focus and high strenght builds yet a high dex remain a possibility even though it is inferior to TM's high dex builds.

To say that TM class is now bad because an additional 4th build (high support) is not working, which believe it or not is an intentional thing, balancers tend to buff/nerf classes based on this, for instance when overload was changed so it improves with support, I'm sure balancers knew there is no such thing as a "TM" support build, this is just an example, same thing goes for TLM's stun grenade, BH's static grenade... This might be a bad way of balancing things, but atleast, balancers make sure they are nerfing X build directly without buffing another Y build, for instance if balancers had no option but to make overload improve with strenght, this would unfairly buff strenght builds.

In a nut shell, there are classes that are struggling to make a 5 focus work, saying that the game is imbalanced because an additional 4th build of TMs isn't working is something I consider as exaggeration, so I think we should first of all make sure all classes have options, this will contribute not only to variety, but will also open doors for more improvement, in other words, working on additional builds each class has that are set not to work.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 8/18/2015 21:19:10 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 7
8/18/2015 21:47:13   
Mother1
Member

@ Uchiha Sarada

First off you mentioned decent dex builds not blocking lower dex strength builds which can include dex builds. So please don't talk down to me when I brought up an example. But to be fair another battle I had against a strength build in 1 vs 1 I got 3 blocks on him in a row where my dex was 91 and his was 30. Of course I won this fight and the person was calling me noob because I blocked his attacks including his rage.

The same thing happened again in a 2 vs 2 fight I had against a strength support build who had 32 dex to my 91 with the only difference being that I got 3 blocks total off of him rather than in a row.

But I have to ask do they use the celtic cleaver? If so it would explain why those strike builds connect so much.
Epic  Post #: 8
8/18/2015 23:04:02   
Uchiha Sarada
Banned
Mother: I never Mentioned Decent Dex Builds, I Only said Builds with Decent amount of dex, No Dex builds, Just a decent amount of dex so a focus build with decent amount of dex is one of them and all of the Examples you said are not good enough and about the Celtic Cleaver, I find it the same against the others swords, they spam strike without getting blocked like nothing, sure sometimes they get blocked but most of the time they connect.

Machaar: I Saw rayman on central station and he had a gamma bot with 4 focus, I bet that thing wont even stand a chance against a focus tlm with IA or even win a fight but im not sure at all anyway, and does he even plays dattebayo? also gamma bot needs a buff.

And was the rest of the text Directed to me or for thylek?
AQW Epic  Post #: 9
8/18/2015 23:35:41   
Mother1
Member

@ Uchiha sarada

How is my latest example not good enough when you were griping about a focus build with decent dex of 90-95 not getting a block against a 30 dex strength build when my last two example were of me have 91 dex, earning 3 blocks in two separate modes battle modes with strength builds that had exactly 30 dex?

But on another note while blocks are part of the game mechanics I don't rely on them when dealing with strength spam builds. I will always go for a shield of the correct type and work from there. Besides most of the strength strike builds I fight are people botting.

On topic

But you know what really killed the game? I hate to say this but this abomination we call the passive to active change. Seriously it destroyed variety more than the majority of balance changes. It was that change that caused the downward spiral that destroyed variety. Passives are what made the classes unique as well as kept certain builds in check. I grantee you if we didn't have the passive to active change the builds people are complaining about ruining 2 vs 2 wouldn't be dominating the game.
Epic  Post #: 10
8/19/2015 16:14:59   
Thylek Shran
Member

What is problematic for balance are skills that increase in power percentually.
As example Bludgeon. This does mean that builds with high strenght get free
bonus damage while the energy cost for the skill remains the same. This is
one of the reasons why builds with high Strenght and HP work that good.

Bludgeon - Example 1
Bludgeon - Example 2

The increasing damage gap between level 1 and level 10 Bludgeon does show the
free bonus damage visually that occurs with higher Strenght.
The second example is especially interesting as the attacker does need more than
106 Strenght when using a level 1 Bludgeon to do more than the minimum damage of 30.
While the bonus damage is small when the opponent has a tank build it is huge versus
builds with low defenses. Legendary bonus defenses have a pretty big effect to counter
percentual skills. My examples could also explain why for Legendary characters
everything is about extreme stats and why builds with balanced medium stats (75-75-75-75)
do not work well there.



@Lord Machaar

This post is not related to my current TM build. I played and tested many builds
including those of other classes.

< Message edited by Thylek Shran -- 8/19/2015 16:50:07 >
DF Epic  Post #: 11
8/20/2015 0:42:25   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 I'm pretty sure they changed %-based skills a while ago to not actually scale with strike damage anymore. So a bludgeon with a 50% damage bonus with a primary damage of +360 will only do +180 more damage, regardless of your strength.
Epic  Post #: 12
8/20/2015 5:19:58   
Daph Duck
Member

Thylek my special Diamond Supply Co instead of complaining about all the seasonal cored weapons that you were around for but failed to purchase, and lackluster skills you fail to counter with your own build try finding a new strategy. As a rank 60+ you should not be having trouble fighting a blood shield nor a spinach floozy sword, and in 1v1 a violet cheater gun rarely makes a difference.

< Message edited by Daph Duck -- 8/20/2015 5:24:10 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 13
8/20/2015 13:03:46   
Thylek Shran
Member

@Exploding Penguin

I used an old formula for my calculation and now I found out that it has changed.
Did some NPC testing and calculations and your formula does come very close.
But as it doesnt match 100%, I still wonder what the formula is.

The old formula that I used was:

ROUND UP(Primary damage - Defense)*% factor //(1.23)


You can use this data for more calculations if you want:
Primary damage: 430-438
(Physical Sword, 360 dmg)

142-181 Strike
220-260 Bludgeon

257-288 Defense ?



@Daph Duck
quote:

and in 1v1 a violet cheater gun rarely makes a difference.

Yes it can only force the opponent to waste up to 95% of this rage damage,
does some damage that also adds rage points to the user,
and grants a second move. All that for only 160 Energy Points.
DF Epic  Post #: 14
8/20/2015 14:57:44   
Satafou
Member

"95% of rage wasted" that's a bit of an exaggeration lol Stop getting butt hurt over people who outplay you, you've had the opportunity to buy the gun for yourself and ED won't nerf it again ever xD There's really no point in complaining about something as trivial as this as it only makes you look salty.
Post #: 15
8/20/2015 15:07:50   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 @Thylek:

It was stated in the patch notes I think in Gamma that it was changed to that. I'm too lazy to fish it out but I'm almost 100% certain that %-based skills are calculated with only primary damage bonus in mind.
Epic  Post #: 16
8/20/2015 15:26:03   
shadow.bane
Member

^ true, i remember that .
AQW Epic  Post #: 17
8/21/2015 8:07:05   
Thylek Shran
Member

quote:

"95% of rage wasted" that's a bit of an exaggeration

Infernal Android and some other attacks can do about 700 damage on rage.
When someone is forced to Strike he cant use the powerfull attack.
Now when the Strike does get blocked which often happens for Tech and
Support builds it only does about the minimum damage of 30. About nobody
would use Strike on Rage as long as there are other options.

30/700=0,04 (4%)
In this example even 96% Rage (total damage) does get wasted.

In most cases when being used in such a situation the win goes to the
Azraelīs Will user as experienced players found ways to make the use
pretty much uncounterable. Opponents who concentrate on energy drain
to prevent the gun core from being used will loose by lacking damage
output. 160 EP is hardly counterable and the energy cost way to low for
this core as power and energy cost should be balanced. This is not the
case for alot cores.


quote:

It was stated in the patch notes I think in Gamma that it was changed to that.

Looks like I missed that detail back there. To bad that there is no official game
formula collection to get more insight. More communication would be very welcome.
DF Epic  Post #: 18
8/21/2015 8:25:45   
Satafou
Member

For tech and support builds lol. It's simply a counter for those type of builds also who's IA do you see that does 350-350? Yes their dmg would perhaps be that if they had 0 res however even with rage that scenario would never happen. You are clearly exaggerating although the gun may be effective against some builds doesn't mean it can do the same against others, even a focus build still does decent dmg with a rage strike. Also the correct timing of frost shards would prevent that "lack of damage" and would successfully prevent the gun's core. Half of the time you post about balance you complain about this azreal gun, quit being salty as no one on the forums even takes your claims seriously xD

< Message edited by Satafou -- 8/21/2015 8:26:33 >
Post #: 19
8/21/2015 9:21:10   
Thylek Shran
Member

Stop flaming and be constructive! I cannot take flamers serious.
You also lack experience if you never have seen a 700 dmg IA.
It does only make 1% point difference for total rage damage waste
if its 700 or 600 damage tho.

< Message edited by Thylek Shran -- 8/21/2015 9:22:33 >
DF Epic  Post #: 20
8/21/2015 9:26:02   
Satafou
Member

The guy who pretty much accuses people for cheating for using "the violet cheater gun" is trying to say someone other than himself is flaming and being non-constructive? Also i'm a far more experienced player than yourself xD. I'd be surprised if you had even a 60% 2vs2 win rate, with your embarrassing excuses for why something needs nerfed.
Post #: 21
8/21/2015 10:06:24   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 I'm sure I've seen what amounts to 700 damage or more during the time that IA was completely and totally broken but now we are down to a period when even going all in on tech is getting you a 400-500 in the most extreme cases of damage. I also have a little over 300 resistance so if you are referring to this 700 damage as the maximum possible output then we probably see it all the time. But if you are telling me people are constantly landing 700 damage with a rage attack from IA all I have to say is you have 0 resistance
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 22
8/21/2015 10:42:38   
shadow.bane
Member

@OWA

i am a focus 5 bh with 82 + 35 tech and a 656 max bot damage and i deal on people that are also focus 5 (means loads of tech) in between 280 - 280 + and to support with little tech like 250 -300 armor around 320 - 320 and to dex with 350 + in about 300 - 300 . so on 0 armor i would do more than 700 by much .

speaking on rage of course ! normally it do between 170 -170 and 250 - 250 depends on ur armors ! but speaking as what he saying on rage !

< Message edited by shadow.bane -- 8/21/2015 10:44:16 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 23
8/21/2015 11:27:06   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 @Shadow.bane I can't tell if your numbers are agreeing with me or are against me just because they aren't labeled. If the first range is supposed to be damage then just say 560 instead of presenting it like how we show defense or attack ranges.

I am going to steal your bot damage real quick and use it for some math if you don't mind.

quote:

Infernal Overload: Deals 85% base damage, increasing by 5% each round in battle (120% cap)


The normal IA user I face rages on round 4-5, your results may vary, which means that they are dealing 95% to 100% bot damage. So using your peak value that is a possible damage output of 623-656 damage. Now let's say you get a good long fight and you make it to round 8-10 for your second rage and have held off on IA so far. Good news your damage buff is now the 120% cap and you have the possibility to deal 787.

Rage and Crits just lower your enemies defense but unfortunately the battle mechanic page on the wiki is currently plastered with an outdated numbers warning so I can't tell you what kind of defense ignore to be looking for other than at one point in time you were looking at 45% ignore for rage, 30% ignore for crit and 75% for critical rage. You at least learned what your maximum possible damage is if your enemy had zero resistance though
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 24
8/21/2015 12:33:03   
Lord Machaar
Member

Having 101 + 35 Technology and +40 Robot damage thanks to ranks would probably give you ~ 642 robot damage (as minimum damage), since IA's special gives you 120 % damage, that's 770 damage (as minimum damage). Ofcourse without talking about rage nor RNG which can be for or against your favor. So facing the right opponent (Strenght/Support), 700 damage is more than achievable.
Now if you tell me that you haven't seen players with 642 damage. Well ask Mr. King Bling AKA BountyKnights.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 8/21/2015 12:36:10 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 25
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