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RE: Why ED is failing at balance

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8/21/2015 13:52:11   
Thylek Shran
Member

My point was not about how much damage you could deal exactly with IA.
Its just that you could deal a big amount of damage and I gave an example.
Letīs say you want to use a fully charged IA or something else that would do
tons of damage against your opponent with Rage. Something that would do
way more damage than a Strike on Rage which often does get blocked when
the user is a tank. Especially dex builds could totally destroy Rage with a
block by using Azraelīs Will.

Basically there is a simple indicator to tell if something is OPed.
It is when the majority of players does use it. It could be this gun or the
build of the month. And I see MANY players using this violet gun and about
every BH is also using Infernal Android at 5 focus. This tells me that those
items are not in balance. But its not only about cores its also about stat and
class balance.

So far some people here have told me the following offensive stuff:
- I missed to buy X item
- My build is bad
- My strategy is bad
- Im unexperienced

and so on...

While this may be partially true the true reason for those foul arguments is that
I named things that are most likely unbalanced and those people want to distract
from those facts so they attack me personally with things that dont have much to
do with balance. They donīt want that their OPed toys and builds could get nerfed.
I have experienced this behaviour every time here when I named balance problems.
Fellow players, please only use real arguments and facts that could be revised and
discussed instead of personal offenses (flaming) !
DF Epic  Post #: 26
8/21/2015 14:10:31   
Satafou
Member

The last point you in fact said to other players on here, hypocritical much? All because you deem something Op'd doesn't make it so. Also have you ever considered the fact that other items may actually need buffed rather than certain items that stand out with their diversity requiring a nerf? It's people like you over the past six or so years who whine about things that are quite evidently not broken who have gotten Epicduel to it's horrific state it's in now.

< Message edited by Satafou -- 8/21/2015 14:12:10 >
Post #: 27
8/21/2015 16:40:04   
Lord Machaar
Member

quote:

Basically there is a simple indicator to tell if something is OPed.
It is when the majority of players does use it. It could be this gun or the
build of the month. And I see MANY players using this violet gun and about
every BH is also using Infernal Android at 5 focus. This tells me that those
items are not in balance. But its not only about cores its also about stat and
class balance.


It's not always correct to say that X thing is OP according to one indicator, the bot is indeed OP, but in what way?
Is it because the developpement of the game has stopped? which means, we don't really see new bots nor new cores nor anything new related to PVP (I'm not talking about balance, changing values here and there, e.g: the UM mode).
It all comes down to balancers now, before it was 50/50, since new content balanced the game in a way, e.g kartherax bot and strenght builds.
Now back to IA, there are 2 types of bots, everyone knows that, there are A- damage-only bots, which means both of the bot's cores are designated to deal damage, and there is the second type, B- bots who have a core that deals damage while the other core has a special effect.

Infernal Android belongs to type A bots, now there are some interesting things that should be mentioned, like these bots are only used by 5-focus builds, like there are only few of them, there are like 3 or 4 bots in this type, therefore there isn't much competition nor much options.
Type B bots on the other hand can be used with all builds and there are a lot of them, that's why we don't see one bot of this category dominating.

We should first of all agree on something. We can conclude that type B bots are more profitable, buying type B bot means you can use it with all builds, although it is not the case with type A bots, so the most important question kicks in, should type A bots be always better when used by 5 focus builds? since these bots aren't used by other builds, normally it should be the case, but not everyone agrees, do you or do you not?

I can't complete the reply without an answer since there will be two conclusions: if Yes, then IA is OP compared to just robots within its category, a category that is mainly designated for 5 focus builds, if your answer is No, then IA is OP compared to all robots of the game. The solution will also be different, if Yes, then we can simply buff other robots of the same category, if the answer is No, then we should nerf IA since buffing tons of bots would be a hard thing. But this will bring us to other complications, nerfing IA will directly a nerf to 5 focus builds, do they deserve a nerf? wouldn't be controversial to say that dex / support builds are OP then say that IA should be nerfed? a nerf that will result in the nerf of 5 focus builds? Therefore to say nerf the bot just like that, you aren't nerfing just a bot, you are nerfing a build, you might result in getting one build to be OP and imbalance the game.


< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 8/21/2015 16:54:06 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 28
8/21/2015 22:42:16   
RaXZerGamingZ
Member

the game isnt really balanced , people blocking and deflecting while stunned , people blocking twice or more after eachother and then a deflect , 500 damage on a level 1 stun grenade , cyber's dont get much energy back from static charge , wich should be changed because they're energy stealing move costs energy , strenght tech mage , dont even get me started , most OP skills barely cost any energy , it's quit laughable
Post #: 29
8/22/2015 14:33:50   
Thylek Shran
Member

@Satafou
quote:

The last point you in fact said to other players on here, hypocritical much? All because you deem something Op'd doesn't make it so. Also have you ever considered the fact that other items may actually need buffed rather than certain items that stand out with their diversity requiring a nerf?

I named you unexerpienced as you denied something that is a fact and now got proved by other players.
If you would had red my initial post exactly you would not ask me if I ever had considered to buff items.
For items I named Assault Bot, Azraelīs Bot and the Eternal Enhance core. When items are way stronger
than similar items you could buff the weaker items or nerf the stronger ones. But as Infernal Overload
seems to be way stronger than other pure damage bots (See Lord Machaarīs last post) its easier and
more logical to nerf just one robot instead of buffing all the other ones if they are not underpowered.
There is an average power niveau for everything. Balance does mean to cut the upper and lower parts.
This does benefit the build diversity alot and players no longer would use only the most powerfull stuff
and build and look like clones because they all wear the same promo gear.
Personally I never did like the fact that I have to choose between power and an unique style.
Until Omega it was items with bound stats and since Omega its promo gear with bound cores that
prevent an unique style mostly.

quote:

It's people like you over the past six or so years who whine about things that are quite evidently
not broken who have gotten Epicduel to it's horrific state it's in now.

You basically say that there should not be any balance discussion. To name unbalanced things, may it
be true or not, is not whining. I do suppose that its players who know that their stuff and builds are
OPed but never mentioned this in the balance forum section are what damaged EpicDuel as balance is
EVERYTHING in a PVP game. Also that the devs listened to much to kids that steady cry for more power
to compensate their lack in power in real life. If we are honest only a few players really want balance
as the most players fear to loose power and have a worse win rate than before.

< Message edited by Thylek Shran -- 8/22/2015 14:40:59 >
DF Epic  Post #: 30
8/22/2015 14:50:01   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 As sad as it may be, pretty much every PvP-type game developer, including the ED team, has its number 1 priority set on pleasing the masses. Then balance comes second. Normally what people want isn't really balance though.
Epic  Post #: 31
8/22/2015 16:04:20   
Satafou
Member

All because you think something is so, doesn't make it a fact, all because the majority agrees doesn't make it a fact. This game needs a complete rework, items, skill, cores, the whole lot need reworked but the devs will refuse to even consider the massive long term benefits it will provide because keeping this game in it's direful state is much less work. Omega hasn't made ED worse off, simply because varium users lost their advantages. It's worse off because they removed valuable aspects of the game :Agility;unique weapon stats;unique weapon requirements ;passives;boosters and i'm not even going to go in more depth of how much this game has gone backwards because it's certainly quite obvious even due to the player population.

Epicduel's balance is as bad as it is because the devs try to make this game balanced by making every class have the traits of each other class, energy drainers, energy regeneration, same skill sets, the removal of unique class passives. In a PVP game if there's diversity it can make up for the holes in balance, however in a PVP game where they try to make everything the same despite being completely different classes that should have their own unique strengths and weaknesses it's just the perfect recipe for disaster.

May i add, it's really ironic that you claim to want balance when you honestly believe that doing a temporally fix is the root to Epicduel's balance issues, it's this point right here which is what i was talking about, players with this idiocy mentality believing that toning down one item, despite it being designed to be a nuke or to force your opponent to strike, they have been nerfed a lot, both of those items. Other items just simply need buffed, but nah let's just nerf them again countless other times because we can't be bothered to do any long term fixes because nerfing a single item is much easier to do.

It will never be more logical to do short term fixes without any desire for long term fixes, that's just being an idiot. Short term fixes are so you have more time to focus on the long term fix, however the devs of this game appear to have no desire or ambition for a long term fix, and that right there is your answer to why ED's balance is so direful. They have had over six years, SIX YEARS, to solve balance, this game has not had many drastic game changing mechanical occurrences, the classes themselves should have been perfectly balanced by now, since it's been over three years of the latest classes release date. As well as the fact most items should be usable, the reason they aren't isn't because other items are too strong, it's because the majority of items are too basic and weak.

< Message edited by Satafou -- 8/22/2015 16:05:15 >
Post #: 32
8/28/2015 22:32:54   
RaXZerGamingZ
Member

here's how ED could have balance : re-adding passives , no energy regaining except generator , boosters and reroute , make smaller numbers again ( i just like it dont judge me ), weapon stat requarements
Post #: 33
8/28/2015 23:07:45   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 Just to throw this out there, I don't actually think it's possible to make a game fun and almost perfectly balanced at the same time. Just my opinion, but look at ED. If touch ups were done on some numbers the classes would all be very balanced since they have almost the exactly same kits, but it isn't any fun at all because there's no class diversity.

quote:

make smaller numbers again ( i just like it dont judge me )


Not judging you but I hope you realize that the larger numbers has only brought good and literally 0 bad with it to the system.
Epic  Post #: 34
8/28/2015 23:10:49   
Mother1
Member

To add on to the later part of what exploding penguin said the extra 0 not only got rid of all those decimal numbers in damage but also made where you can see how each and everyone one of you stat points worked when put into a stat.

Before you needed 3-4 of a stat to see the effect and if you didn't have enough then the point or points were wasted.
Epic  Post #: 35
8/29/2015 6:28:35   
Xendran
Member

The problem is not the balance itself, it's the stagnation of the skillsets.
The game can be brutally imbalanced but still a ton of fun, just like beta was, when there are new builds, ideas, playstyles and counters being thought up by the community.
When the game is actively changing like this, imbalance does not stagnate into the same set of builds like it does now, it instead cycles as new counters are created for the dominating builds. More skills in general also inherently decreases the likeliness of build stagnation in the meta as there are more things that can possibly be on par or a counter to whatever builds happen to be going around the meta at any given time.

Every build you can possibly make now is a variant on a build that has already existed in the game, there is no such thing as a new build and therefore there is nothing new in the game to discover.
Another issue is that there is usually only 1 way to build around a skill, rather than taking a skill and having multiple ways of using it and many ways to form synergies with other skills.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 8/29/2015 6:31:45 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 36
8/29/2015 8:13:53   
.Lord Ginger.
Member

Mother, The +3/+4 to go up or wasted thing, I liked that. Required you to think more, put skills in different places. 72 HP 5 Focus Omega BH had 45+29 dex, the extra points went to support. Now it's almost all about +0 +35 +35 +14 or some different order.
+35 +35 +14 +0. also, my opinion, larger numbers look tacky. But I see the decimal points made a change...after 5 years, but it's not my choice. xD

< Message edited by .Lord Ginger. -- 8/29/2015 8:15:21 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 37
8/29/2015 9:59:46   
Stonehawk
Member

Unique weapons with requirements should be back so people wouldn't complain about balance. Just buy a weapon with the stats you aim for your build and it's done.

Unfortunately, making every weapon and armor be the same is irreversible, just like passives can't come back. Balance is impossible, every change will make game worse (e.g.: Overload improving with support).
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 38
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