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RE: Ranks need to go

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10/14/2015 16:34:23   
Front45
Member


 Ranks must be deleted. i suggest. because it is not right when 1 rank playing 50+ rank. underdog mode is not good. after delete ranks everyone will have same power, after change this phase and make real balance the game will be great. because now ED's main problem is: Ranks, Balance, and Omega phase
Post #: 26
10/14/2015 19:30:42   
Cyber Dream
Member

In my opinion, there was no point in keeping the current ranks if the devs were planning on adding underdog mode. Could've just revised the ranking system.
AQW Epic  Post #: 27
10/14/2015 19:44:36   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 My solution:

1. Keep everyone's EXP. This means people who have lots of ranks will be have tons of EXP still compared to those with few ranks.
2. Remove any ranks and any ranked bonuses. Any credits spent on unlocking stuff for ranks is 90-100% refunded as compensation.
3. Change the Legendary stores to be accessible by tiers (emperor, commander, etc...). Those who had enough ranks to previously access stores will still keep their ability even if they don't meet the new criteria
4. Raise the level cap from 40 to 43 instantaneously
5. Slowly, over the course of the next several months, increase the level cap by one every month or two, until it reaches about 50.
6. Make a new row of 3 skills per skill tree so that the large amount of skill points can be invested appropriately without builds becoming too overloaded with unspendable points.

What this will do:

-Improve matchmaking stats if the system is done appropriately
-Removes the concept of some builds benefitting off of ranks more than others
-Maintain a fair environment for players who have lots of EXP so their EXP doesn't go to waste. Also compensates for the massive amount of credits required for ranks.
-Introduces new skills which will bring about a huge change in buildmaking and the overall fun factor of the game.

Epic  Post #: 28
10/14/2015 21:22:02   
Lord Machaar
Member

Removing ranks totally would also mean balance problems will be way more clear and irritating. The reason why I say this, if everyone has same level, which is 40 if ranks get removed, everyone will end up using OP builds which will kill variety.

I'm not saying that currently, balance problems aren't clear enough, yet at high ranks you still got the possibility to try new builds, yet many other high rankers only focus on OP builds, making them more overpowered.

Therefore, removing ranks without further intense balance changes, will turn PVP into rock-paper-scissor, with a little bit of luck, and who starts first will have the upper hand, making it difficult to choose who starts first when both players have same support.
This might not be true, and the game actually after removing ranks will be more open to new builds, or maybe player's intelligence will have bigger impact. Nobody knows, until this gets tested. Yet, I'm afraid there isn't anyone out there to do this and share results.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 10/14/2015 21:24:11 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 29
10/15/2015 0:26:29   
Mother1
Member

The main reason they don't remove ranks is because the moment they do it will be enhancement 2.0 all over again and the staff knows the what happened due to the said fall out. While I will admit the way ranks came out originally set off all the red lights in my mind and could have been done better

like this suggestion I made for example

and had they done that originally it wouldn't have been said issue back then. However, now if they did do something as drastic as what OP is suggesting or even the suggestion I made as pointed out there will be backlash in more ways than one.

The only way to completely remove said backlash is if the staff gave 100% compensation to every player who sent Varium/Credits on ranks and boosts.

Also Underdog mode was made to make matchmaking more fair then it originally was and while it still leaves some players at a disadvantage said disadvantage is a lot smaller than it originally was, and in the case of ranked players vs ranked players the underdog player has the stat advantage over the higher level player which in turn has got some high ranked player complaining.

But what it also comes down to is how you play as well because many players myself included have beaten players with more ranks than themselves and in my cause without underdog my best was 61+ ranks difference, and with this new system (underdog) 52 rank difference and it isn't just me beating players higher ranked than myself.
Epic  Post #: 30
10/15/2015 4:28:05   
Front45
Member


 Underdog mode must stay. because when 40 lvl playing 36 lvl second one must have improvements. i think best way is change to 42 or 43 lvl max and delete ranks. but balance and this phase is not good, again we get problems. one problem will be solved, but left 2. in balance there are a lot of problems: high ranks: strength tech mage, strength tactical mercenary, support tactical mercenary and tan tech mage is over power class! also energy parasite is weak if enemy has 250- energy. also static smash is weak plus 4 cool downs. bounty hunter getting only 213 energy for 4 turns. blood mage can only play focus 5 build because of energy parasite requires 37 support and etc. there are a lot of problems in balance. tech mages when they have sword, they can use almost every skill which is need for win
Post #: 31
10/15/2015 8:41:47   
Lord Machaar
Member

quote:

Also Underdog mode was made to make matchmaking more fair then it originally was and while it still leaves some players at a disadvantage said disadvantage is a lot smaller than it originally was, and in the case of ranked players vs ranked players the underdog player has the stat advantage over the higher level player which in turn has got some high ranked player complaining.


I got myself a 15 days ban trying to explain this thing. And here is the original post tweaked so that doesn't get me another 30 days ban. (some replaced words are highlighted)
quote:

You are only repeating what Very high rank players are saying, X player to be exact, if he is blaming his losses on underdog mode, then why did I defeat him in a challenge, more than once, actually more than 10 times, with different builds of his own, and on top of that without an underdog mode, and on top of top of that, ~50 ranks in difference, what are we going to blame now bad weather? It's not always the underdog mode to blame, nor ranks, sometimes, there is balance, and there is also lack of intelligence.

Blaming the underdog mode on high ranks is just a way of high ranked players to feel safe after they lose, when X player tells you he does 120 wins and too little losses, you think it's because of his skills? or his smartness? I think not, therefore, ranks have given him the advantage to do some wins with a good winning ratio, while players at lower ranks do not get at least a 50% win chance. Are we going to nerf the underdog mode because Mr. X High rank player can't get 100% winning ratio? No, we are not. Are we going to nerf the underdog mode because of his 10 losses between 120? Not in a million years.

And I totally agree with santonik, just notice the tone of how these players talk, they aren't talking about builds, nor classes, nor even cores or skills, they are speaking about a battle where they lost between 20 or 30 other battles that they won, then they come here and "Whine", a block or a deflection or a crit can happen to any player, no matter what rank/level he is, so blaming your losses on +1 dex that gives 0.5% block chance, well I find that pure stupidity. Low rank players were once a punching bag, that era came to an end, once the player base drops down to even lower levels, let me make this clear, there will be 3 options, removal of ranks, buffing underdog mode or closing the game. Period.


< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 10/15/2015 12:53:14 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 32
10/15/2015 10:36:53   
Noobatron x3000
Member

I completely agree lord especially with the last bit it will get to a point where they literally have little options

1)remove ranks
2) buff underdog so its on par with ranks.
3) end the game
Because if they keep following this path the exile server will never open again and epic server will continue to decline.
Post #: 33
10/15/2015 10:51:13   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 Noobatron, option 2 is essentially reforming ranks. And there are more ways to reform ranks than buffing Underdog. So since you have accepted that as an option, let us discuss how to reform ranks, because eliminating them is not feasible.
Post #: 34
10/15/2015 11:06:57   
Noobatron x3000
Member

I've explained that or atleast I thought I had

There are a few options

in order of what I think are the best to worse options

1) Remove the battle advantage make it a credit/cosmetic/possibly even a way to gain influence anything that eliminates the pvp advantage.
2)implement a level system every 4 ranks count as a level with diminishing returns and every 2 stats counting as about 3 def/res primary secondary damage this is about right infact if anything it gives the rank holder a advantage as in most cases with almost all builds at this level 2 ranks equate to a level with some of the ranks more then a level ,this is more then reasonable with a 4 rank +/- if the game truly believes in balance. If you don't understand this a rank 5 could only face someone rank1-9.
3)give people a toggle they can opt out of facting people +/- x amount of levels and explain to them this would increase wait times but let them have the choice, Yes it would be rough initially until players came back and realised they could stay without being farmed for 4 levels and 20-40 ranks before they could play a build they wanted competitively.
4) remove pvp advantage of legend ranks from 1v1, 2v2 and juggernaut, implement a hardcore mode where they can use their rank advantages, This is last because polar bears don't want to fight other bears they want to fight seals so no one would use it.

Another option I'm not sure where to put in my list this wouldn't fix the problem at all but would at least improve player retention make it so 40s can only face 40s so you avoid being farmed at level 36-39 no one will put up with 3 levels of being farmed encountering 40s more often then you don't in really unbalanced fights no matter which mode you go into , Ranks will still cause people to leave as soon as they hit 40 but at least they will stay longer.

< Message edited by Noobatron x3000 -- 10/15/2015 11:20:56 >
Post #: 35
10/15/2015 14:42:37   
Mother1
Member

quote:

Another option I'm not sure where to put in my list this wouldn't fix the problem at all but would at least improve player retention make it so 40s can only face 40s so you avoid being farmed at level 36-39 no one will put up with 3 levels of being farmed encountering 40s more often then you don't in really unbalanced fights no matter which mode you go into , Ranks will still cause people to leave as soon as they hit 40 but at least they will stay longer.


I remember you saying this when they did the cutting of level 40's player range when level 35-37 were given a break from fighting level 40's. However there is a difference now. Underdog mode with 40's vs 40's gives the lower level player the stat edge because they have the same stats without the mode. so the higher levels are the weaker players stat wise thanks to underdog mode.

quote:

3)give people a toggle they can opt out of facting people +/- x amount of levels and explain to them this would increase wait times but let them have the choice, Yes it would be rough initially until players came back and realised they could stay without being farmed for 4 levels and 20-40 ranks before they could play a build they wanted competitively.


This has been suggested quite a few times, and I remember the staff rejecting said option because it gives players to much power over the database, as well as being a potential way to keep certain players from ever getting a fight.

quote:

1) Remove the battle advantage make it a credit/cosmetic/possibly even a way to gain influence anything that eliminates the pvp advantage.


This was suggested quite a few times as well and had it been done early on or even from the start when people didn't have said ranks yet the damage would have been minimal or nonexistant but for the to do it now? Unless 100% compensation is given to every player who spent credits/varium on ranks there will be a ton of backlash from angry players who worked hard to get ranks.
Epic  Post #: 36
10/15/2015 15:02:19   
Noobatron x3000
Member

^ Argument is not valid 1 stat point does not equal - 3 resistance / defence or 3 primary / sidearm damage

Underdog fixes nothing except giving a absolutely ridiculously low chance to start/block/deflect/crit not high enough to make a difference.

To balance a rank 1 vs a rank 40

You would need atleast 80 stat points to match the numbers they are gaining in defence and offence.

Luck does not counter raw damage so in no way shape or form does underdog balance anything for any level player
Post #: 37
10/15/2015 15:19:39   
Mother1
Member

@ Noobatron

what powers up resistance Defense primary sidearms and Aux?

Answer

Strength = Primary (Which is given when underdog mode is put into play)
Defense and side arm = Dex (same as strength)
Resistance Robot = Tech (same as strength and dex)
Aux = support (Same as strength dex and tech)

Aka the same stats that underdog gives which you claim is worthless.

Stats also power up the skill tree moves due to the moves being used being power by stats ranks can't do this due to them being as you said solid bonus.

While stats do add luck factors (due to them being tied to the stat themselves)

They also give power and close up power gaps to a degree or in other cases completely removed the gap of power yet I don't see that anywhere within your posts and this is also fact.

If Underdog mode is under performing then mention said fact to the staff and prove why it needs a buff. However saying the mode is completely worthless while ignoring the fact that it does give stats which are the same things that power up Primary, sidearm, aux, robot, defense, and resist (the very same thing you claim they don't affect) doesn't help to prove your points.

Epic  Post #: 38
10/15/2015 16:19:07   
Lord Machaar
Member

I will give a simple example why underdog mode from UM I to UM IV is kinda useless. Let's compare eternal protection (+15 defense/+15 resistance) to eternal enhance (+2 to all stats), you've never wondered why eternal protection is far better than eternal enhance? and yet, why many players tend to choose eternal protection over eternal enhance?

Well there are 2 things:
- Diminishing of what 1 stat of str/dex/tech/supp gives you after 85 stats. Below 85 stats, each stat gives you +3 of X thing, for example 1 strenght gives you +3 primary damage, after 85 stats, +1 strenght gives you only +2 primary damage, which is the case for eternal enhance, yet for eternal protection, you will get +15 resistance/defense, whether you have 20 technology/dexterity, or 250.
- Eternal protection gives the possibility to focus on one thing, eternal enhance, for most builds doesn't do that, you will either waste +2 stats on support or strenght depending on your build (str or supp build), except for 5 focus builds.

So let's do some math:
Eternal Enhance = Underdog mode level 4 = +2 to all stats.
Eternal Protection = 5 legendary points for defense + 5 legendary points for resistance (10 ranks) = +15 in defense and +15 in resistance.

And since:
Eternal Protection > Eternal Enhance
Then
5 legendary points for defense + 5 legendary points for resistance (10 ranks) > Underdog mode level 4
This is called simple math.* If A = B and C = D, and A > C then B > D.
Usually for 10 ranks in difference, you get Underdog mode level 1, in the example I gave, 10 ranks in difference, is more powerful than underdog mode level 4. Logic.**

Here we conclude that 10 legendary points, where 5 of them are invested in defense and 5 invested in resistance, is far better than underdog mode level 4 that is given when there is 40 ranks in difference. So in a case of 20 ranks, where 10 legendary points are invested in defense and 10 others are invested in resistance, you usually get underdog mode level 2 but the shocking thing is, even underdog mode level 6 will be pretty useless. To note, underdog mode level 6 is given when there is 60 ranks in difference, yet only in 20 ranks in difference, underdog mode level 6 is still pretty much useless.

**I insist on one note, and I already mentioned it many times, the first 20-30 ranks are a crucial thing, and if you read my ranking system revamp, I said give players the possibility to farm NPCs until rank 20 only, then they will have enough ranks to stand a chance in PVP.
Sure, I can't deny that medical mastery and energy efficiency are way weaker than +30 defense/resistance, but still, giving underdog mode is fairly balanced against medical mastery and energy efficiency, yet very weak against +30 defense/resistance.

Due to engine limiations, we can't decide which legendary slot X player is using, whether +30 defense or +40 robot damage or not even using anything since some players have not unlocked some slots to invest their legendary points in. I think when devs find a solution to this, then underdog mode should depend on what the opponent is spending his legendary points on, for example:
- Rank 10 player using 5 legendary points in defense (+15 defense) and 5 legendary points in resistance (+15 resistance), as I mentioned before, if a rank 1 player faces this dude, the rank 1 player will normally get underdog mode I, yet I've explained before that even if you give underdog mode level 4, it remains useless against this combination.
- Rank 10 player using level 10 medical mastery (just an example), underdog mode will be perfectly the way it is giving +1 to all stats, since level 10 medical mastery adds up +20 hp to health medic.

I can give more examples but I don't want to make this any longer or more "complicated", since many here, and I'm sure of that, still didn't get the mathematical equation I gave up there.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 10/15/2015 16:46:14 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 39
10/15/2015 17:48:31   
Noobatron x3000
Member

I would ask that people arguing that ranks aren't broken and don't need fixing would provide some hard evidence of their opinion , no one is doing so far.


While on the opposite side actual numbers and hard facts are being provided proving it isn't balanced even with underdog.

@ mother because level 36-39 underdog doesn't give you more stats then the 40 infact significantly less.

I'm not sure what point your trying to make in the few cases a ranked 40 player gets a decent stat boost against a higher rank player the actual stats he gained and numbers they increase do not come close to the numbers the opponent is gaining from the extra ranks, Diminishing returns hit a 40 harder then anyone else with most stat points moving your damage/ defence up 1-2 points.

Your trying to defend a position you believe in I get that , But please do the math before you make false claims.

Underdog revolves around luck the stats provided don't help you with damage / defence not enough points given to max the raw damage of the rank/stat advantage. The only time their remotely worth anything is when you actually end up with a couple more points then your opponent and your 1 more dex then the rank 8 (0.5% block chance) manages to get you a couple of blocks , which as I'm sure you can imagine is extremely unlikely, However the higher ranked player has a solid hard damage and defensive advantage

And in almost all cases the underdog will have less stats then the higher rank anyway so this point is mute, Only 40s gain stats not enough to make up for the rank advantage , Or even go half way to doing so.

< Message edited by Noobatron x3000 -- 10/15/2015 17:57:44 >
Post #: 40
10/15/2015 18:51:49   
Mother1
Member

@ Noobatron

The purpose of underdog mode was to make fight "more fair" where as your reasoning (Correctly if I am wrong) is that you want Underdog to nullify the advantage ranks give. The staff themselves said when posting underdog that the higher level player would still have some advantage just not as much as before which is 100% true.

Even with said returns you still get a boost from underdog mode and in the areas of the skill tree (meaning the moves you use) as well as robot damage you returns aren't diminished in the least as while the later can be given with ranks, the former doesn't happen with ranks.

Also my point I am trying to prove to you is that even though you aren't "happy" with underdog and think it is 100% worthless I am trying to prove to you that it isn't even with all the negatives you mentioned.

Epic  Post #: 41
10/15/2015 19:20:28   
Noobatron x3000
Member

It should balance the battle but that wont happen

But even the fight it just doesn't it barely helps at all, May as well not have bothered for the point of underdog in most cases.

If they want to implement a god mode ranking system attract enough players so you can balance matches to a reasonable degree.

And this is the problem

They have no choice but to fix it and fix it hard and fast.

Or every new players leaving at level 36 .

And they need the game to grow its that simple really.
Post #: 42
10/15/2015 19:44:08   
Lord Machaar
Member

quote:

Even with said returns you still get a boost from underdog mode and in the areas of the skill tree (meaning the moves you use) as well as robot damage you returns aren't diminished in the least as while the later can be given with ranks, the former doesn't happen with ranks.


I'm not sure how +2/+1 stat can boost your skill tree that much.
MQ Epic  Post #: 43
10/16/2015 8:57:46   
.Lord Ginger.
Member

Underdog gives RNG which may be helpful, I have lost to this crap before. HOWEVER, I agree that ranks shouldn't even be a thing, or ever a thing, and I'm rank 80+. I don't know about you guys, but I thought beginning Omega was alright.
SSM, they could bring back passives, seeing that most of the NPC's have them, the code is still there.
My rank 14 does win because of underdog, my level 28 alt has an 87 win percentage because of the underdog I get against level 30's and so forth...but yea, rank are unbalanced until you get to rank 60-80. Rank 59 is a decent rank to be at, while 60-80 are only less energy and medic, which honestly doesn't do crap because the + stats make up for the medic in a few turns, and energy is hardly calculated at the perfect 620/630/640 amount.

NONETHELESS, Ranks should be gone, and there should be something in return, however devs said that's not possible, so...
AQW Epic  Post #: 44
10/16/2015 10:06:36   
Lord Machaar
Member

Yeah, nice point .Lord Ginger. I'm sure you would've said something else if you were rank 45 - 59. So yeah, here we go guys, @Mother1, our 80+ rank guys aren't happy too,
so removing ranks would make them happy since they won't face players from rank 45 - 59 and farm them, all they need is a good compensation.
MQ Epic  Post #: 45
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