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RE: Is magic worth it?

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11/25/2015 11:15:15   
gakorogirl
Member

Magic Police would be a good plan, yeah. Although even with that, there's some privacy concerns (like in Inheritance, where they had a similar quandary to our current situation with the Rose.)

EDIT: @San Robin, duly noted.

< Message edited by gakorogirl -- 11/25/2015 11:16:15 >
DF AQW  Post #: 51
11/25/2015 11:15:52   
  San Robin
Modzerella


 I've just deleted a couple of posts, some of you will get a PM for further information/consequenses.
For the rest, consider this your deletion notice.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 52
11/25/2015 11:57:59   
UltimateDoomKnight
Member

@Azan Well, the Rose really have to choose sides sooner or later, otherwise we're getting more vulnerable to those who do use magic.
Post #: 53
11/26/2015 9:30:24   
brotherinlaw
Member

And spoons made me fat!

oh, sorry, this discussion just reminded me of a whole other topic
Anyway, if we remove magic, we'd still have gnomes, Voltabolt, sneevils, the entire Resident Sneevil fiasco, Ebilcorp, and probably several I haven't even thought about. On top of that, our lack of magic would become a severe imparement, seeing as it's our only defense against the Shadowscythe.

On top of that, tyrants will continue to exist, even without magic. Tyranny isn't just a magic problem, it's a people problem. give someone an army, a nuke, or an extremist agenda, and they will act on it, magic or no. Personally I'd rather fight Valtrith's cultists than the Third Reich.

If anything, Magic acts as an equalizer, thanks to chance. The lowliest peasant is just as likely to be the next Archmage, Elemental Avatar, or Dragonlord as the royal heir. Heck, look at Valen and Artix. both WERE peasants, and look at them now!


Basically, the Rose exists because they have misunderstood the cause and are trying to cure the symptoms in the wrong way. They saw Evil Magi and thought the cause was magic, when in fact itwas the evil inherent in people.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 54
11/26/2015 22:22:16   
Rezilia
Member

Magic is a fundamental part of nature in Lore. It's not just a tool or something that creatures can be "cured" of, it's woven into the life strands of plants and of the planet itself. If magic went away, all plants would have their properties changed - plants used for healing would become poisonous, plants that might have naturally evolved to a hostile point could have a curse taken off of them that had placed them in a docile state, etc.

Science is more dangerous than magic. While magic is raw power, science is the endless potential to create power. It's a far better choice to throw poison spells and healing spells back and forth than having to deal with biowarfare.

Plus, magic isn't just vital to Lore - it's vital to the entire universe; if you take magic away from Lore, all you'll do is make it easier for threats to attack and destroy the planet. For all we know, Lore is immune to gravity because of its magical nature - what if eliminating magic sent it spiraling across the stars, killing everyone in the process?
DF AQW  Post #: 55
11/27/2015 0:04:14   
Solanaceae
Legendary Nightshade


 Biowarfare has nothing on planet-exploding spells, such as the one Wargoth did.
DF  Post #: 56
11/27/2015 0:26:22   
Mordred
Member

Sure, I'm not against trying to regulate magic. I could get behind that. I'm all about authoritarian utopia states! But elimination is too extreme, and besides that, I think the benefits of magic greatly outweigh the harms.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 57
11/27/2015 3:58:24   
Brasca123
Member

@epic durian. sure, but throwing a few hundred nukes on the world has almost the sage effect, no?

also, if you look at MQ, science was able to destroy the whole universe (in a way that i reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally don't understand)
AQ DF  Post #: 58
11/27/2015 21:48:16   
brotherinlaw
Member

^ one should not mix science with caffeinated beverages.

also, I wasn't going to bring up MQ, but yeah, the only magic used is by Runehawk, and that is very sparingly. I'd rather deal with Wargoth than the Galactimech, corrupted dragonoid, or, worst of all, an extradimensional, omnipotent Brony. heck, the mysterious stranger isn't even a magical being, he's a paradimensional non-being born of primordial shadow.

Plus magic is bound to certain moral or physical limitations, like karma or the law of equivalent exchange, which science is not so rigidly bound to. Morals only limit the scientists, and equivilent exchange only relates to mass, you don't have to pay physically for triggering a nuclear winter on a planet you aren't on.

Magic turns men into monsters, science allows men to be monsters.
a sweeping generalization, i know, but still fairly accurate.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 59
11/27/2015 22:27:03   
Lord Run
Banned


 to realy understanand if magic is worth it or not we need to look at it in the every day life the best way to compare dragonfable without magic is to comper it to the historical real life medieval time every day couse this is how dragonfable wulled looks like if there was not magic now we all see that even with the magic in most of places in Lure the society isn't much more advnced than the medieval time society there for magic do not help that much to every day life couse even with it most of tham still live like in medieval time there for magic do not improve much the life that much
yet it creates many strong evil powers that put everybody in danger so magic gives very little good and do not help to improve society much yet creates a big lvls of disasters so yep magic do not worth it
Post #: 60
11/27/2015 22:39:55   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 Imagine a world without fossil fuels.

Imagine a world where terrorists have nuclear bombs.

Imagine a world where you can talk to squirrels.

Imagine a world where you can be killed by walking trees.

Imagine a world of unparalleled beauty.

Imagine a world of perpetual fear and instability.

This is the world of Dragonfable, the world of magic. A world where villainy cannot be contained by laws and institutions. A world of abundance for all. A world where one person can save or destroy everything.

The difference between our world and Dragonfable's is that villains have to unite to do great and lasting harm in ours, while a single, powerful villain can cause untold devastation in DF. I'd take our world any day.
Post #: 61
11/27/2015 22:44:56   
Faerdin
Rune Knight


 Lore is also a world of heroes and villains.

Our world... That is a different and more complicated story.

_____________________________
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 62
11/27/2015 23:13:14   
Lord Run
Banned


 ya but without magic our world in medieval times and dragonfable wulled look a lot a like and you can't say it is not true the only reason dragon fable is a world of bad guys good guys and evil doers are so powerfull is magic and that the only reason couse without magic Sapi wulledn't be deffrent from the black knight of Lioness from the times of Camelot and York and you know im right and our hero wulledn't be much deffrent from sir Gawain or i don't know Lancelot or Sigfride ya probbly more like Sigfride hwo slayed a dragon without magic or so dose tales the tale and i wulled put king Alteon as king Arthur or every outher good king and we will probbly see characters thats alot like Jan D'arc and bad guys will be like black prince Edward i mean we all ready have Robina the Hood that is totaly based on Robin Hood and Galanoth is like Sigfride i mean look at that and you will see that without magic DragonFable is alot like our world at medieval times all we need to do is takeing magic and put more religion and vuwala

< Message edited by Lord Run -- 11/27/2015 23:25:58 >
Post #: 63
11/27/2015 23:27:38   
Faerdin
Rune Knight


 The only reason why evildoers are so powerful is not because of magic, but their intent to harm. If you really want to hurt someone, you will find a way. With magic or without. You can replace the word "magic" with just about anything -- even "swords." The "evildoers" in the Middle Ages were powerful and could harass the peasants of their era with impunity because they had legions of trained, sword-wielding knights at their command, and with such an advantage those swords may as well should be magic.

It is also because of magic that Lorian humans are capable of breathing.

The elements themselves are inherently magical. And they permeate the existence of every being on Lore.

Magic may be dangerous in the wrong hands, but Lore also cannot exist without it -- it is so integral to all life in DragonFable.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 64
11/28/2015 2:07:44   
Rezilia
Member

Imagine a world without any elemental balance, where nature destroys everything it touches.

Imagine a world where terrorists still have nuclear bombs.

Imagine a world where squirrels constantly attack you in swarms.

Imagine a world where you can't tell the difference between helpful plants and harmful ones.

Imagine a world of unparalleled chaos.

Imagine a world of endless fear and instability.

This is the world called Earth, the world of science. A world where heroics aren't even allowed by laws and institutions. A world where everyone dies unhappy and alone. A world where saviors can be destroyed but destroyers can't be saved.

The difference between our world and Dragonfable's is that villains here are always able to unite in great numbers while heroes are unable to stop them, where everyone born good is eventually corrupted and turned evil. I'd take Lore any day.

< Message edited by ckdragonck -- 11/28/2015 2:08:38 >
DF AQW  Post #: 65
11/28/2015 9:12:35   
brotherinlaw
Member

@ckdragonck; Good point, though maybe a little pessimistic. I prefer to think that everyone is born inherently evil and can overcome that to do good. Then again, I'm Christian, so you may not agree with that.

anyway, regardless of magic, evil and tyranny will still exist. It does not matter if it's Sepulchure or Bashar al-Assad, human's have this odd desire to control the world. Those who already have a piece will use whatever they can, no matter how inhumane, to get as much of that world as possible. Of course, this is by no means absolutely true of all those with power, but the percentage is significant.
I would rather live in a world where the peasant and the tyrant are just as apt to receive untold power as the other. Where a small-time enchantress and her baby eventually trump the greatest dragon in existance who burnt down their village. Where a small boy who survives a plague eventually becomes the greatest vanquisher of evil on the planet.

Where an un-assuming man/woman just walking through the woods bored goes on an adventure to make countless friends and become the greatest hero the world has ever known.

sadly, I cannot live in that world. I can only watch as it's story unfolds and, at the same time, try to make my own world a better place.


Post edited to remove unnecessary content ~M4B

< Message edited by Melissa4Bella -- 11/29/2015 15:30:49 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 66
11/28/2015 9:33:00   
Renn Shadowheart
Member

Haven't been here in a long time.

Hi new people.


Anyhow, magic is fundamental to Lore. With magic, you can cure evils that Earth cannot, you can use magic for good and bad. But that is the same for science. Magic is useful to many of Lore's inhabitants, but has the potential to do harm. Such as the Shapeless, basically another Panem. :P But in Battleonia, magic is used to do good. But magic has no laws. So it could be used for catastrophic devastation.
AQW Epic  Post #: 67
11/28/2015 11:30:58   
Rezilia
Member

quote:

I would rather live in a world where the peasant and the tyrant are just as apt to receive untold power as the other. Where a small-time enchantress and her baby eventually trump the greatest dragon in existance who burnt down their village. Where a small boy who survives a plague eventually becomes the greatest vanquisher of evil on the planet.

Where an un-assuming man/woman just walking through the woods bored goes on an adventure to make countless friends and become the greatest hero the world has ever known.

sadly, I cannot live in that world. I can only watch as it's story unfolds and, at the same time, try to make my own world a better place.


I completely agree.

Thing is, though, we can live in that world. Remember the saying, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." The majority of things that keep us from doing good are manifestations of humanity; society's rules and customs are designed to make us afraid to do good, and any society which believes that its normal residents can become adventurous heroes will be filled with adventurous heroes.

The true difference between Lore and Earth is that Lore's residents are prone to have Hope while Earth's residents choose to be ruled by Fear.

The reason for this is probably magic itself. In a world of endless magic, every day brings unbelievable things that force you to see reality in an open-minded manner. In a world without magic, everything becomes clinical and mundane, letting people see reality in a close-minded manner. Those who are able to convince themselves that reality is a box will be forever trapped and ruled by that box, with the slightest attack on their worldview destroying them completely; if the majority of humanity lived in societies where that box couldn't be formed, terrorism wouldn't even work.

The Rose is trying to force people into societies where those boxes can form, thereby making people prone to fear and easily controlled.
DF AQW  Post #: 68
11/28/2015 11:47:57   
Sharkslayer
Member

^110% true
AQW  Post #: 69
11/29/2015 9:50:34   
Veral77
Member

No, magic is a tool. Its application is the responsibility of the individual. That's why I've always found "forbidden curses" in the Harry Potter universe to be ridiculous and naive. So the relatively painless killing curse is illegal... Let's slowly burn someone to death with Incendio!
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 70
11/29/2015 14:39:26   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 @ckdragon

I'm afraid we live in significantly different Earths. I don't see nature 'destroying everything it touches' (global warming is far more nuanced than 2012-style destruction) or terrorists (which has a specific definition, North Korea isn't a terrorist state) with nuclear bombs, or squirrels 'constantly' attacking in swarms, or people having the inability to distinguish between helpful and harmful plants (this is the 21st century!).

Heroics are present every day (policemen, firemen, medical staff, etc.) Vigilantism is in many cases not necessary because of the enforceability of reasonable laws and institutions. Destroyers can be 'saved' - that's what prison rehabilitation programs are all about. And I simply disagree with everyone inevitably 'being corrupted' or 'dying alone'.

The point relevant to this thread that I'm trying to make is that magic does not necessarily make things better, or even make things the same as they would otherwise be. We don't have sufficiently advanced technology to make a comparison with magic - the best we can do in that scenario is compare DF to other fictional universes, which is too much of a stretch.

Inherent to DF's magic is the ability of select individuals to amass great power without need for cooperation and coordination. This inherently breeds incredible inequality and instability, on a scale that far surpasses our own Earth.

And the very fact that the Rose can form in its current state disproves your thesis that magic inherently opens minds. The close-minded mob of Amityvale, which has lived with magic all their lives, is a prime example of that.

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 11/29/2015 14:40:48 >
Post #: 71
11/29/2015 15:25:46   
Rezilia
Member

Look up black hole eddies.

It's only a matter of time until they take over a nation they can launch the missiles from.

Seriously, where do you live where squirrels don't do that?

Most people in the current generations cannot distinguish the difference because they're not taught to, while even experts have a hard time telling because they have to rely mostly on leaf shapes and fruit coloring. In Lore, you know a plant's bad because it's attacking you.

Those people are paid to do heroics. Most police abuse their power, most firemen have to follow rules that keep them from saving as many people as possible, and medical staff have complete control over whether you live or die; they do what they do because of the feeling of power they get.

Those rehabilitation programs do absolutely nothing to keep them from causing more crimes, and sometimes cause prisoners to go crazy.

We do have technology that compares with magic. A bullet is as strong as an icicle, we have flamethrowers, leafblowers (which are more dangerous than people think), and more. Bombs are far too easy to make and you can hack any machine to do your bidding. On the flip side, we can save more lives through modern medicine than healing spells can, we can literally fly through the air at mach speeds, and we've gone to the moon. So, yes, our technology is advanced enough.

I think you fail to understand how villainy in DF works. It's true that the average joe can become a powerful sorcerer, but you need to have a legion of sorcerers at your disposal to take down a town full of those average joes; a single individual in DF cannot cause endless destruction on their own - they need mentors, allies, pawns, and more to burn down just one town.

The Rose specifically targeted those that chose to ignore the acts of magic around them. The bandits that joined the Rose just saw magical creatures as simple beasts; the Amityvale residents managed to form their own box to keep their sanity, and even in Book 1 DF refused to believe that any events happened beyond what they called the norm; Jaania only saw magic as raw power, failing to understand the intricacies behind it. They were all close-minded because they chose to ignore the majority of magical acts that were laid out before them. The fact that they think magic can be contained is just an example of their limited view of reality.
DF AQW  Post #: 72
11/29/2015 15:37:17   
Melissa4Bella
AmeSylph


 Let me remind everyone that we are a community of different peoples of various levels pertaining to the English language. Because of this, we must all at least try to be a little more understanding of another's situation. As such, we will not ridicule other people in such a public manner. If you truly have a problem with another poster due to their posts then please PM any of the DFGD Archknights or myself with the information that you find to be so offensive.

I've just edited and deleted a few posts regarding this situation, so please consider this notice of why a post was edited or deleted. Let's keep on topic, please. Thanks!

AQ DF  Post #: 73
11/29/2015 15:41:03   
Brasca123
Member

quote:

The point relevant to this thread that I'm trying to make is that magic does not necessarily make things better, or even make things the same as they would otherwise be. We don't have sufficiently advanced technology to make a comparison with magic - the best we can do in that scenario is compare DF to other fictional universes, which is too much of a stretch.

well, we don't have magic here, so, it would be weird to think on how magic would work on earth, comparing with other fictional universes is a fair comparison i say

also, there is almost someone that will try to make things better to him/herself in detriment of others' lives, even if the person won't necessarily have magical power to destroy the whole world, if they have a death star, it ends up the same in the end, wouldn't you say? it just depends on how much power the "evil" guys have
quote:

Those people are paid to do heroics. Most police abuse their power, most firemen have to follow rules that keep them from saving as many people as possible, and medical staff have complete control over whether you live or die; they do what they do because of the feeling of power they get.

Those rehabilitation programs do absolutely nothing to keep them from causing more crimes, and sometimes cause prisoners to go crazy.

i disagree with pretty much everything on those 2 paragraphs
quote:

I think you fail to understand how villainy in DF works. It's true that the average joe can become a powerful sorcerer, but you need to have a legion of sorcerers at your disposal to take down a town full of those average joes; a single individual in DF cannot cause endless destruction on their own - they need mentors, allies, pawns, and more to burn down just one town.

ooooooor... warlic/xan(with pyronomicon)/SMUDD/cysero/sepulchure/wargoth/kathool/rhoiir
quote:

Seriously, where do you live where squirrels don't do that?

i return the question, where do you live that squirrels do that?

my thoughts are still more or less the same, the difference between having or not having magic is minimal, some things are more practical with magic, others with technology, it ends up the same in the end, magic is cooler though (i mean, worst came to worst, you died because a frigging dragon ate the sun! instead of a laser beam destroying your planet)
AQ DF  Post #: 74
11/29/2015 16:16:00   
Shadows Morgenstern
Member

Magic police huh? Dragon Age anyone?
DF  Post #: 75
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