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1/6/2016 12:10:04   
The berserker killer
Member

 

Why not implement a rule, a code, that will restrict consecuticve blocks, deflects, and crits.

Heres what I have in mind: Basically you cant crit twice in a row, cant block twice in a row, cant deflect twice in a row. Thats practically it.

More and more skills will become usable and players wouldnt have to worry about stat spammers so much.

AQ DF Epic  Post #: 1
1/6/2016 12:46:30   
8x
Member

Not being able to save my butt by criting or blocking twice in a row takes the fun out of it.
Epic  Post #: 2
1/6/2016 12:54:06   
Xendran
Member

There are ways to do this, but it's actually quite complicated.
It involves averaging out the luck factors over the course of a match on the fly based on turn count, stat differences, level differences, etc.
How it usually works is all of your percentages start out very low and increase over the course of the match. Once an effect goes off, its value decreases to low again. It doesnt prevent double RNG elements, but it does make them more uncommon (which also increases the "AWWWW YEAH" feeling when it happens and saves you)

It's a great system when implemented well and properly balanced so your RNG effects actually do average, rather than being skewed too high or too low consistently. Whats nice about it is that it implements an element of strategic play in playing around extremely likely or unlikely rng effects based on how many times they've gone without it activating.
If you've landed 6 hits in a row, you know your opponent is very likely going to block you next turn, which you can choose whether or not you want to play around.

It's not easy to balance this correctly though, as game feel feel also comes into play along with the numbers.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/6/2016 12:55:24 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 3
1/6/2016 13:04:56   
Mother1
Member

I would support this if it didn't indirectly buff strength strike builds by basically making it so they can connect every other turn due to being unable to block twice in a row while indirectly nerfing dex, tech, and support making these stats less worthwhile. But I have to ask how would this effect the cyber yeti? It works for two turns and would basically make it where you could block or deflect twice in a row. Would this core get a nerf if this went into effect?
Epic  Post #: 4
1/6/2016 18:36:44   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


quote:

Not being able to save my butt by criting or blocking twice in a row takes the fun out of it.


This
Epic  Post #: 5
1/6/2016 18:56:23   
Xendran
Member

quote:

But I have to ask how would this effect the cyber yeti? It works for two turns and would basically make it where you could block or deflect twice in a row. Would this core get a nerf if this went into effect?


I was gonna make a post describing why this wouldn't be necessary with either the OPs version or my version of luck averaging , but instead I'd like people to think on it and see if they can answer it themselves. It's good practice to get into the right mindset when brainstorming changes to any game.

So the simple question to your post is this:
Why?

(To be specific to this context, Why would any change be necessary and what would it accomplish?)

But yeah, "Why" is always a really great question to always ask yourself. Many times when developing my current 2 projects I've asked myself why I made a change or incorporated a system. If the answer to that "Why" question lacks substance, the feature or change gets cut and rebuilt.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/6/2016 19:02:35 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 6
1/6/2016 19:16:39   
SonicTbear
Member


If you're trying to shift the game into your favor by suggesting this, then I'd like to say, sadly, it won't work as it WILL backfire on you too as this rule will affect all players including yourself. Say for example you crit your opponent. One more crit would win the game, but it has to be next turn, but with that rule in place, you can't. He attacks you using one of his skills and crits you. You don't have the energy to heal and neither does he. You decide to strike since you can't use your ranged weapons due to them being on cooldown. With your Dexterity higher than his, but not enough to lower his block chance to 0%, he manages to block your attack anyway. He shoots you with his gun and you deflect it. The win is yours. All you need to do is strike since he can't block again. Guess what? You don't do enough damage and he manages to survive with 1 HP left. You can take another deflection so if you deflect, you'll still be alive and can kill him the next turn regardless of whether he blocks or deflects depending on what weapon you use.. Oh wait. You already deflected the last turn. With this rule in place, you can't deflect again and since he knows about this rule, he's not gonna show your mercy by striking and making you hope for a block since you didn't block the last turn and could do it should he choose to strike you. Instead, he's just gonna go straight to using his aux. Crit or not, your health is low enough to be shot with an aux weapon and still lose the rest of your health. BAM! Backfire. I hate when I lose to luck as well, and would love to support this, but seeing as how this will make the game even more luck dependent, I'm sorry to say this, but not supported. If you lose due to luck shifting towards your opponent(s), then I'm just gonna be the mature person here and just relay a message to you by...

...posting this overrated meme...

< Message edited by SonicTbear -- 1/6/2016 19:20:28 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 7
1/6/2016 19:44:11   
Xendran
Member

Using a meme to devalue a persons suggestion is not being the mature person.
Pretty much everything else about your post is correct but I'd like to elaborate on your point about the game becoming more luck dependant so people have a better idea of why exactly it would become like that.

Realistically, the luck would be theoretically less overall in terms of raw numbers of these things happening, since every time you block, deflect or crit, you remove your block deflect or crit % from your next turn completely. This technically devalue every RNG element due to them being disabled on some of your turns, but that lost value never being compensated for. In reality though, the fact that you can lose a necessary block/deflection by getting one earlier adds a second layer of RNG. No longer do you just need to hope for a block, deflect, or crit, but you need it to happen at the right time.

A couple examples of why this is broken specifically in epicduel is mainly related to the length of games, which is a consequence both of the inflated damage output of players and the defence/resistance system working on flat numbers rather than % (and a LOT of games you see with "flat" numbers are actually numbers being inputted into a formula to spit out an ending damage reduction %, generally logarithmic, whereas ED is straight up subtraction)

Because of damage being so inflated, it would become the norm to do one thing and one thing only: Put EVERYTHING YOU CAN into making your strongest skill hit as hard as you can on a no-Dex buld, bait out a block and oneshot your opponent with berserker/whatever else. They can't even heal to recover it because you only did a measly random 15% damage hit and then thrashed them from basically max HP. This becomes even more broken if they do something like maul you and get the stun. You would have two turns in a row where you can't do anything about the damage, and there is NO WAY you're surviving a pure-str Maul-Berserker with 100% accuracy even if you have matrix up on a dex stack build.

This is just one example, but there are many others similar to this that would be insane.

I can tell you now that the meta this change would create would be the most extreme meta we've ever seen because the only way to counter this would be to stack absurd amounts of HP (stacking def/res will result in either one damage type completely slaughtering you, or you going hybrid and it being totally up in the air as to whether or not you can survive) and attempt to heal loop their burst until you're winning the Energy control game and lock them out of their skills. Even then, if it's a str build you're going to be getting hammered (literally) for huge damage regardless.

The problem related to short games comes from just how much of your RNG chances overall you lose by removing your ability to perform one in a match that lasts 3 turns.
Lets say you have a high block chance of 30%. If you take a strike first turn, a blocked strike second turn, and then get hit with an unblockable berserker third turn the loss of ability to block on turn 3 is giving your opponent an average damage output throughout the match of 240% rather than 210%. This discrepancy only gets higher with more dex and directly punishes dex builds and SEVERELY punishes any build that could theoretically get higher than 50% block rate. If you had 50% block rate, losing that 3rd turn block capability is causing you to take 200% damage instead of 150%. This means at 30% block you just gave your opponent ~14.286% More damage against you for free, whereas at 50% block you just gave them 25% More damage. Once you hit anything above 50% block rate (I understand this may be impossible, but im just extending it so you can see the effects) you start getting punished even more, because at that rate its required for you to get more than one block in a row at some point to maintain the average. This means that if you went above 50% block, you would actually block less than if you had under 50% block chance. That right there is straight broken, regardless of whether or not it's possible to get that much block % in this game. It shouldnt be *allowed* to happen even theoretically, and arbitrarily capping a system to prevent it means the system is bad.

It's just a nerf to dex that gets worse the more dex you get, and is made worse yet by short matches, especially of uneven length.



EDIT: This is also a good example of how similar systems can have VASTLY different implications. If you simply average out and change block values throughout the game to make it *unlikely* to block twice in a row, but not impossible, every issue above is completely negated, while still maintaining the strategic play used in the example above. The example above is actually a good example of the thought process we WANT players to be having, but there needs to be at least that risk there. That way you are making a calculated risk rather than exploiting the game mechanics to effectively cause your opponents stats to be lower than they really are.


< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/6/2016 19:49:32 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 8
1/7/2016 2:11:26   
shadow.bane
Member

well id support this ! just lost a match that was so weird xD

aux (crit)
I healed
got poisones (crit)
I Mobed
multi (crit)
I died xD
AQW Epic  Post #: 9
1/7/2016 4:16:09   
Xendran
Member

You getting crit 3 times in a row is not any reason for anything.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 10
1/7/2016 18:23:25   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


Honestly just making luck factors more consistent would fix the whole problem. I.E. Massively increasing the chance of all of them happening but greatly reducing their impact so that they don't feel like stupid cheese wins/losses.
Epic  Post #: 11
1/7/2016 19:05:05   
The berserker killer
Member

 

Thanks for all the constructive criticism guys. it seems the issue is that the 2nd turn is vital, since after you block/crit/deflect once you wont be able to do it again. In that case, I have come up with the ideal idea of after you block/crit/deflect, your chances are cut in half the following turn. Should you block the following turn, they are halved again. Then restored to normal when the opponent either A) Connects Strike or B) Uses another attack

This way cyber yeti isn't affected and stat spammers will still feel the effect of this update
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 12
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