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RE: War 2.0 Redux

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2/7/2016 20:59:31   
SonicTbear
Member


 How about no more rewards? Well, yes, still reward Credits and Arcade Tokens, but remove the War Prize rewards. This will actually help people pick an alignment they would really like and not give in to greed. Plus, with the game being a dress-up game 99% of the time (but not fully 100% thanks to locked cores), players are always wanting to look cool so a bunch of people they don't know will worship them. Sure not all of ED's dress-up aspect is horrible (the Founder Armor is no longer the best armor in the game is a positive of this outcome), but since most prizes (that are not bikes/morphs) don't have locked cores, War Prizes are completely useless cosmetics. Either that or don't reward them ALL the time, like rewarding a winning side with War Prizes like once or twice a cycle.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 26
2/7/2016 21:18:22   
goldslayer1
Member

@SonicTbear
That's kind of the point of many suggestions players are making here.
That the rewards be cosmetics so that they dont affect varium vs non-varium.

quote:

This will actually help people pick an alignment they would really like and not give in to greed

Difficult to pick an alignment without leaving your faction.
I dont see many people leaving their Exile factions to join a Legion one and losing all of their faction accolades in the process.

The solution needs to be bigger than Exile players leaving and choosing Legion.
And it starts by implementing a proper war system in where the teams aren't predetermined before the war even starts.

Also, I wouldn't call staying in their alignment greedy. There's players who've been in the same faction for years. and back then, it was usually Legion that had the upper hand.
So when I see people suggesting that they punish or handicap Exile, its pretty irritating because the war system is broken at no fault of the Exile players (Or Legion).
AQW Epic  Post #: 27
2/8/2016 6:45:40   
SonicTbear
Member


 I wasn't trying to recruit to the Legion. And yes. It's not the Exiles fault for winning so many wars. Just the players who choose one side that wins all of the time and always gets their prizes. They don't care about RP morals or "which alignment has the 'sexier' women," that's where the greed part comes in. The wanting to look "cool." There are players who join for proper reasons (ex. Me being a good guy.) and those who are biased due to certain reasons that are stupid (ex. They win a lot so they get prizes all the time that they can dress up in. This girl (This bunch of pixels) is S3XI!). It's basically like people choosing werewolves over vampires due to Twilight ruining vampires. (Yet, they ruined werewolves too. They just ruined vampires first.) And the rewards are already cosmetics. That's what I'm trying to say. To get rid of pointless prizes that don't benefit people that is only obtainable by one alignment due to a broken war system that is broken due to the players that play dress up games and games where it's all about fame and being worshipped like they're a god or like they're "God."

< Message edited by SonicTbear -- 2/8/2016 6:47:13 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 28
2/8/2016 16:12:32   
goldslayer1
Member

@Sonic
But dont you think it would be better if the prizes weren't contingent on winning the war, but rather how much you produced for your side?
Right now the issue with the rewards seems to be that it only rewards winners.

If the rewards was more focused on how much players produced (I.e. how active they were, how much war infuence they got, how many varium they used, etc) rather than just winning an unbalanced war, then this wouldn't be an issue.

Think of it this way, I'm gonna use some sample numbers to demonstrate my example.

Rank 1: 500 War Influence
Rank 2: 1,000 War Influence
Rank 3: 2,500 War Influence
Rank 4: 5,000 War Influence
Rank 5: 10,000 War Influence
Rank 6: 20,000 War Influence
Rank 7: 35,000 War Influence
Rank 8: 60,000 War Influence
Rank 9: 90,000 War Influence
Rank 10: 150,000 War Influence

Each rank being a higher achievement.
If you based rewards around rank, then even players from the losing side could achieve rewards if they achieved the necessary rank to unlock the rewards.
This way, you reward effort rather than just winning since the balance is already lopsided.

If you keep rewards to be based around winning, then players are going to keep switching to Exile for war rewards, because they already know Exile will most likely win based on the large amount of Exile player pool. That's if its under the current system, the suggestion I made above is to get rid of Exile/Legion for wars, and make it random so that the war rosters aren't predetermined before war time.
AQW Epic  Post #: 29
2/8/2016 17:03:34   
Lord Machaar
Member

^ I find that a brilliabt idea.
Sure there can be a final "cosmetic" award at the end of the war given to the winning side, although, there should be more imporant rewards to individuals who contributed the most to their alignment.
Now the maximum award is given at 5k influence, players in past wars reached 100k - 400k influence. The difference is pretty clear.
MQ Epic  Post #: 30
2/8/2016 18:15:22   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 @Machaar while I don't think it impossible if you remove the p2w aspects of the war those large scores will become rarer on the leader board unless a concept for generating influence at a quicker rate is introduced
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 31
2/8/2016 20:39:53   
Xendran
Member

I'm telling you guys, that boss idea I posted is solid.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 32
2/8/2016 23:34:50   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 We all know that the quickest and easiest way to bring more players on to ed that will keep players busy as devs come up with a liong term solution is to just bring back flags.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 33
2/9/2016 13:57:18   
Lord Machaar
Member

@OWA:
I personally reached 70k influnce this war playing merely 1 week. I setted a 10k influence per day, until I lost the internet connection for 1 week. I was planning to reach 100k - 140k influence depending on how much the war takes. This without any use of varium. (I used 3 or 4 by mistake.)

Sure, these ranks fit perfeclty the war with a P2W aspect, but if you look at it from the other way around, presenting these ranks would motivate players to do more. Now beside the evolving cheevo which a gives a very low amount of rating points, for a huge effort (I personally did more thank 2k 1vs1 wins during the war for 70k influnece, rewarding me 10k creds and 10 tokens, plus a humble achievement), these ranks should give players more reasons to play the war, and bypass the very low 5k influence goal.

The pay 2 win aspect can not be removed completely, I'm against the complete removal of it, otherwise the game can not survive. I support removing buying direct bombs from a shop with 0 effort, as for doing PVP, getting normal bombs (through war commander for example), then using varium to upgrade them, this is perfectly fine as you know the player actually made some effort, instead of spending 5 mins using the accumulated super bombs during the way, to surpass someone who has done tons of wins during the same day to win war hero for example.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 2/9/2016 14:01:40 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 34
2/9/2016 15:06:08   
shadow.bane
Member

^ not everyone have free time as much as you do if u know what I mean ! some people have lives some have work some can't login to ed as much as u can :)

some people can buy bombs and get as much influence as they want ! some f2p can no life from the start of it and get much influence ! some can't even login for 1 hour or 2 tops a day , this idea of goldslayer1 is sided to no lifer and rich folks ... then what about people who love this game and don't have time for it ?
AQW Epic  Post #: 35
2/9/2016 15:34:40   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Or we can just bring back flags as opposed to implementing a whole new feature altogether that is surely to be flawed in some way, shape or form???
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 36
2/9/2016 15:50:44   
shadow.bane
Member

flags are like old ones were better where all areas are open and u can pvp where u want and earn influence via battle not war bombs ! then who don't have time can catch up on that area whenever he had time not wait another year or maybe more for that region to be open and earn some ! what if next year he couldn't also ?
AQW Epic  Post #: 37
2/9/2016 15:55:24   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 ^^^^ My point exactly. Plus with this war it's One dimensional meaning that its mainly legion vs exile. Which is okay. But flags? Flags were player vs player, faction vs factions, legion exile on a LARGE SCALE. It was a large scale war everywhere at everytime, even when youre sleeping. Like you would have to wake up and go defend your flag, then go to school and wait in anticipation to go back and defend your flag some more. It was hectic, it was fun, I mean the adrenaline was just pumping to know that another player out there wants the same exact thing you have. But this system? Meh.

But this is what happens when you DONT TEST THINGS. This is what happens when you look at numbers and hard data alone on a piece of paper and think to yourself "Omg this looks great, players will be so happy" without actually testing things out. Like what was the plan here? I really wonder if they really thought that we would be okay with the repetitive steps of:

1) Pvp
2) Get Bomb
3) Drop Bomb
4) Wait 300 hours (sometimes 10 months lol)
5) Repeat

Like is that all we're worth? 4 Steps? At least with Influence Per Battle and Flags it wasn't that simple. We could PVP at over 50+ locations, with 100+ leaderboards for factions and players, and made hundreds of archrivals and allies. It was a fight to claim the most territories. It was always occurring. This system though? I could throw up.

< Message edited by The berserker killer -- 2/9/2016 16:02:36 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 38
2/9/2016 15:57:27   
shadow.bane
Member

it gives a reason to pvp ! no there is none specially for legion ! what's my reason ? to win a cop car that ain't worthy ? while I knew from the start who is this last war's winner ! so I just decided to do 5 k to get those credits and tokens and that's it as the majority of legion players did !
AQW Epic  Post #: 39
2/9/2016 16:07:50   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Absolutely. now theres no reason to PVP. Like why would you cap a war prize? Seriously? Like that makes no sense. Your simply urging players to get there then stop. But lets go a bit more in depth. 10k credits, after spending 100k credits on war commanders is a War Prize? 10 tokens is a WAR Prize? A cosmetic is a WAR PRIZE? Cmon man don't kid me. And I already offered a fix to these so called war prizes can be actual WAR PRIZES.

Starting from the top tier we could have additional tiers:

5k inf=10k creds, 10 tokens, cosmetic
10k= 20k creds, 20 tokens, cosmetic
20k=40k creds, 40 tokens, cosmetic
40k= 80k creds, 80 tokens, cosmetic
80k=160k creds, 160 tokens, cosmetic

And so on so forth. Now THATS a war Prize. THATS how you make players play. THATS how you ensure your population stays active. 5k influence is a joke. 10k credits is just a few retrains. And a cosmetic isn't even worth it if its not something cool we can show off in battle like, oh idk, Lionhart Saevas Armor??
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 40
2/9/2016 16:35:16   
Lord Machaar
Member

You can not isolate goldslayer1's suggestion from the thread. If you are going to read this thread, read the whole of it as each suggestion completes each other. The war cannot be fixed with a single isolated suggestion.
So let's hop in and detail your humble reflection off of your partial overview of this thread, shall we?

quote:

^ not everyone have free time as much as you do if u know what I mean ! some people have lives some have work some can't login to ed as much as u can :)


I'm probably more busier than you, as I'm a college student (Medical Student), and I managed to get my 70k influence during the 1 week vacation I have during the whole year. Why accepted and supported this suggestion while it will rarely benefit me as I can only be active during 1 war in a whole cycle of wars, well simply because:**
- I'm not selfish.
- You aren't supposed to get 100k influence each war.
- Some other people will have vacation weeks like me during X war, as ED is an international game played by players from different countries (Brazilians, Arabs, from both Americas & Europe), thus different vacation dates, so each war, a certain player will get his time to shine.

I would understand the "no-lifing" part of your reply if you actually seemed like a busy person, but as I can see, coming from someone who has:
- Almost 40k NPC wins.
- And defeating Davarril 23,173 times.
There are 2 explainations to your "no-lifing" part of your reply:
- You are either not busy at all, AKA staying at home farming NPCs, thus making you say it's unfair because uh, oh, I prefer doing NPCs instead of PVPs during war time.
- You are actually busy but you gained all of those NPC wins from other ways, if you know what I mean.

Now to the second part of your reply:
quote:

some people can buy bombs and get as much influence as they want !* some f2p can no life from the start of it and get much influence !** some can't even login for 1 hour or 2 tops a day , this idea of goldslayer1 is sided to no lifer** and rich folks* ... then what about people who love this game and don't have time for it ?


As I mentioned before, isolating goldslayer1's suggestion from the whole thread would make it vulnerable to many critics, but if you mix it with suggestions starting from OP to the latest reply, you would get a general fix, almost completed, that treats different broken aspects of the current war system, one of them is minimizing the Pay2Win aspect of wars.*
** Already treated before.
quote:


flags are like old ones were better where all areas are open and u can pvp where u want and earn influence via battle not war bombs ! then who don't have time can catch up on that area whenever he had time not wait another year or maybe more for that region to be open and earn some ! what if next year he couldn't also ?


You are just contradicting with yourself here, as you will never catch up with players who are free 24/7, nor your faction with the amount of botters in-game, gaining unworthy factions tons of influence bypassing other legit factions. At least making wars events rather than permanent features of the game, would make them special bringing more players each war. Plus ofcourse at non-war times, other events/features can take place.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 2/9/2016 17:13:36 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 41
2/9/2016 16:40:14   
shadow.bane
Member

quote:

and I managed to get my 70k influence during the 1 week vacation I have during the whole year


quote:

I'm probably more busier than you, as I'm a college student (Medical Student),


^ when u have 3 businesses to manage u will know exactly what I'm talking about ! and in summer used to work from 9 am to 9 pm and will do again in one month period ! and as I said in ur free time u be able to catch up on influence but to bad I don't have free time ! only like 2 - 3 hours tops a day that ain't enough !

< Message edited by shadow.bane -- 2/9/2016 16:41:20 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 42
2/9/2016 16:50:33   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

while I don't think it impossible if you remove the p2w aspects of the war those large scores will become rarer on the leader board unless a concept for generating influence at a quicker rate is introduced

@OWA
The idea I posted doesn't remove the "P2W" aspect of Var Cans and drops. It shouldn't be OP, but at the same time, still worth it for varium players.
And the rewards end up coming down to cosmetics so even if they spam Var Cans, the "advantage" they get is negligible when it comes to rewards.

The one thing that should be changed with Var Cans is that it shouldn't reward Influence. But rather give War Influence for the War Rank of that specific war.
Only battles with players should give influence. This prevents that "P2W" aspect of players essentially buying Influence.

quote:

getting normal bombs (through war commander for example), then using varium to upgrade them, this is perfectly fine as you know the player actually made some effort,

@Lord Machaar
That's actually not a bad idea. Dont know how feasible it is, but its not bad.

quote:

this idea of goldslayer1 is sided to no lifer and rich folks

@Shadow.Bane
I think you took the numbers too serious. They were only used to show the example.
As for the rich folks part, I think its safe to say every war had that aspect in it, otherwise people wouldn't complain about it.
My solution wasn't to remove it, but changing the rewards they get. (I.e. rank based cosmetic rewards, no regular Influence but rather War influence for war rank only)
Plus, regular players get lots of drops which would also boost their war influence.

Its understandable that some players cant play a lot or spend money, but can you really say they would be deserving of the same rewards as guys in the leaderboards?
This is why ranks would work better. There would still be a reward for each rank, and no matter what level of activity you have, there would still be a reward for you.
You're just not gonna get the same reward as guys spending tons of money or playing long hours if you're only spending a few minutes a day into the event.
That wouldn't be fair on the active players if rewards were all the same, and people would most likely play less since the rewards wont require more.

< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 2/9/2016 17:12:38 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 43
2/9/2016 17:10:27   
Lord Machaar
Member

quote:

^ when u have 3 businesses to manage u will know exactly what I'm talking about ! and in summer used to work from 9 am to 9 pm and will do again in one month period ! and as I said in ur free time u be able to catch up on influence but to bad I don't have free time ! only like 2 - 3 hours tops a day that ain't enough !


Well, you still haven't explained you got your 75k NPC wins with a such a busy schedule.

The game is not made for extremely busy players, nor for extremely unbusy players, it's in the middle, supporting "the influence per battle" suggestion makes you contradicts with everything you said, as it is a similar system to legendary system, it is abusable by no lifers, on the long term, can you catch up with a no-lifers who has been botting/farming NPCs for the past 2 years if you rarely play? Exactly. Same thing can be said for influence per battle suggestion.

PS: We aren't here to discuss our personal lives, but with that schedule, you are still not as busy as me during guards days ;). You can search up the internet to see what I'm talking about.
MQ Epic  Post #: 44
2/9/2016 17:17:26   
goldslayer1
Member

quote:

You are just contradicting with yourself here, as you will never catch up with players who are free 24/7, nor your faction with the amount of botters in-game, gainging unworthy factions tons of influence bypassing other legit factions.

@Lord Machaar
I'm glad i'm not the only one whose noticed that trend of suggestions by this individual....

quote:

You can not isolate goldslayer1's suggestion from the thread. If you are going to read this thread, read the whole of it as each suggestion completes each other.

This.
The idea I posted aren't isolated ideas. They're meant to work well when combined with the others I listed. One piece to the whole pie.
Cant judge a piece on its own.

It's also another issue in the suggestion forums here, is that people read small portions and then comment out of context.
If I didn't read the entire suggestion, I'm not gonna comment on the whole, or comment out of context. (I.e. when one suggestion is contingent on another)

I also noticed that people make suggestions (and Dislike or support) based on personal interest.
That's not the way to make good suggestions IMO.



< Message edited by goldslayer1 -- 2/9/2016 17:25:56 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 45
2/9/2016 18:58:28   
The berserker killer
Member

 
quote:

I also noticed that people make suggestions (and Dislike or support) based on personal interest.


Ironic
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 46
2/9/2016 19:19:49   
goldslayer1
Member

@Berserker
Care to elaborate? otherwise you're just spamming.
Ohh right, you dont actually read the full posts, so you wouldn't know.
AQW Epic  Post #: 47
2/9/2016 20:02:00   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 No I do not care to elaborate.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 48
2/9/2016 20:22:44   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 I'm going to kindly ask all of you to knock it off with the shots in this thread. If you want to have an issue with someone discuss it in a PM or bring it up to a moderator if it is an actual problem that should be address by the forums staff.

@GoldSlayer Even with the rewards just being cosmetics leaving in the ability to buy you war up a leaderboard will end in the same way as the rest of the systems that involve P2W aspects. That being the feelings of ill will towards those who payed their instead of reaching that goal through time. The physiology in gaming is such that if you are just competing on a skill basis you will always think you can catch someone on a leaderboard just by putting in more time or simply being better than them. But once you add money into the equation you may start thinking they didn't earn their victory they just bought it and for that reason they are a less skilled or inferior player.

If you don't believe me on this there are still people in the AE community who haven't played the game in ages and associate EpicDuel with with being P2W and not worth the time because you aren't competing on a skill level but on an income level.

The P2W model only fosters ill will and for that reason we should do our best to changing it

@Machaar you slightly hurt the validity of your example by going from I got 10K everyday with no time frame context to I had a week off from school in which to do it.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 49
2/9/2016 20:42:02   
goldslayer1
Member

@OWA
The idea of Var Cans only giving war influence and battles giving regular influence could be stretched over to war LBs as well.
I separated the 2 for that reason.

A rank based reward system could be based on Influence (attained through battles during war) + War Influence (whether attained through buying Var Cans or just drops).

With Leaderboards, you can have one that is solely Influence (Only battles would count) and another LB that is War Influence (Only Var Cans would count).
Total war score would account for both.
I dont think there would be much problems from the non-var community with a distinction like this between the two.

This is the best solution I see that would still allow the devs to have a Varium aspect to wars, without pissing off the non-var community.
I highly doubt they would take it out completely or devalue it to 0 like many would want to, that's why i'm trying to suggest the best solution to please both.

Lord Marchaar's idea about upgrading drops is also not bad. It wouldn't completely fix the whole issue. But with some extra tweaks, you can make a drop upgrade cheaper than buying a Var Can outright, and lower the impact of Var Cans a bit so it would require participation by the varium users. Or simply provide a cheaper way for most players to use Var Cans.

I can think of another solution to this, but some players still wont like it.
AQW Epic  Post #: 50
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