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Easy strength fix!

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1/24/2016 20:33:28   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Whoa... why not just have more skills scale similarly to how fireball scales? Instead of them scaling with primary damage, just have them scale with strength?

This is beneficial because the problem before was that Strike is spammable with gun, so devs decided to change it.

However upon doing that, as a result, they indirectly nerfed every class (some more badly than others).

With this change, making skills scale with strength, classes can regain a bit of the power they lose without regaining the whole thing (spammable strikes that'll always connect).

Certain skills like Massacre, cheap shot, static smash, and berserker would scale with strength hence allowing the classes to regain some of the strength they lost by using class weapons.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 1
1/24/2016 20:38:39   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 I don't understand this suggestion. Fireball is a caster skill, it's fundamentally different from all other strength-based skills. Are you suggesting that some existing melee strength skills be converted to caster skills? Or that some melee skills scale directly with strength rather than weapon damage? If it's the latter, I don't see how anything would change, other than melee damage-focused skills being basically useless for anyone but strength builds.
Post #: 2
1/24/2016 21:01:14   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Come on, we cant half have logic in this game and half have not. There are a ton of illogicalities in this game.

But yes, I am suggesting that melee skills scale directly with strength rather than weapon damage and theoretically speaking things would indeed change for everyone, not just strength builds since primary damage is in fact increased with strength. Sure some scaling would need some adjusting but, once done correctly, it would be very beneficial to the game.

Certain skills like cheap shot will maintain their ignored % while scaling with strength similar to Fireball (with berserker and massacre scaling higher of course). Meaning that with any adequate build, and I mean "reasonable build", each of the skills would be completely viable to use for the classes should they scale with strength
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 3
1/24/2016 21:06:09   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 Could you provide a mathematical example with both the current and proposed situation? I still don't quite grasp what you're saying - is this just a suggestion to indirectly buff all strength-based skills (in which case we could just tweak percentages if necessary) or is there something more to it?
Post #: 4
1/24/2016 21:59:18   
Mother1
Member

@ SSM

In a nutshell TBK wants strength skills to scale like Dex, Tech and Support skills instead of with a multiplier. Fireball already scales like this which is why TBK suggested making all strength skills scale like fireball.
Epic  Post #: 5
1/24/2016 23:33:39   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 So a base damage for strength skills independent of primary damage, that increases with strength? What is the point of this, other than making strength skills only worth using for strength builds? In addition, this would severely nerf Katherax.
Post #: 6
1/24/2016 23:41:38   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Aww man I just typed something up but it got deleted so ill do an abbreviated and bulleted version. Yes I want it to indirectly buff MOST, not all, strength based skills. Buffing all strength based skills to be based off of strength would only overpower some classes that rely solely on strength like Mercenaries. This only buffs a select few.

So for my examples I will use the primary damage of 440-458 (45 strength on a level 40) and the defense of 330-368.

Fireballs current scaling in the above scenario is:
Lvl 1: 388
Lvl 2: 408
Lvl 3: 428
etc all the way up to Lvl 10: 568

Now im gonna apply that to cheap shot. In its current state, if a individual uses a lvl 1 cheapshot (13% ignored defense) with 440-468 primary strength vs someone with 330-368 defense, that individuals lowest possible damage is 119.84 with the highest possible damage being 180.9 (if theres no critical of course).

With this suggestion in place, a lvl 1 cheap shot would deal 388 damage along with the same 13% defense ignored.

13% of 330 defense is 280.6 which is a 49.4 difference.

Which means lvl 1 cheapshot is dealing 437.4 damage at lvl 1 in this scenario (388+49.4) which is relatively close to your base primary damage. Now that of course, is nothing. Because actually 437-368 only equals 69 maximum damage. Which isn't a lot right?

And it shouldn't be at level one. But now lets see the difference when this skill is maxed with this suggestion in place with the same 45 strength and 440-468 primary damage.

What that means is lvl 10 cheapshot would deal 568 damage along with a 40% defense ignore.

40% of 330= 132 which means the target will have a base defense of 198 and 40% of 368 is 221.

Meaning that at 568 primary damage, cheapshot will deal (in this scenario ) 347-370.

With the current scaling at 436-468 primary damage and at level 10, vs an enemy with 330-368 defense, they'll only deal 215-270 damage.

Old system cheapshot at max: 215-270 damage
New System at max: 347-370 damage

It's weaker in the beginning but, in the long run, theres over 100 points in base damage that can be affected by intimidate. And that's only for cheapshot.

Keep in mind, this really should not affect all skills. That would nerf kartheraax and would cause some classes to be severely overpowered since some classes have only strength skills (I.E merc). This is why it really should only affect the skills I named in the OP.

@Mother1: Thank you for clearing it up while I was getting everything fixed

< Message edited by The berserker killer -- 1/24/2016 23:52:58 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 7
1/24/2016 23:51:50   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 Cheap Shot is a poor example because there's no skill that simultaneously improves two attributes at once (in your example, both base damage and %defence ignore), and I don't see why we should change that.

Static Smash %drain already improves with strength.

Berserker and Massacre are high energy-cost skills that can generally only be practically used at low-mid skill levels. In other words, practically speaking, those skills would be better off under the current system, since under your system, they'll need a lot more skill points (and energy cost) to see added benefits.

We can also tweak energy cost and %scale if we want to incentivise players to invest more into particular skills, such as the Bludgeon nerf a few months back. The proposed suggestion seems rather circuitous.

Speaking as a STR-SUPP BH (somehow this works), Cheap Shot is already an awesome skill and Massacre is surprisingly handy in a variety of situations. But Berserker definitely needs a relook - making it deal increased damage based on %of your HP left is an interesting possibility.

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 1/24/2016 23:55:59 >
Post #: 8
1/25/2016 0:01:29   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 False, static smash increases with primary damage. Should it increase with strength it would not be affected by kartherax and would have a much larger energy drain and gain.

And people should definitely get more damage for more skill points and it really wouldn't require to max them all. I mean even level 5 cheapshot under this system would be very beneficial to a f5 hunter with the absolute minimum primary damage.

Also im not sure if you were around in early omega when diversity was at it's absolute finest but berserker and massacre, despite being high energy cost skills, were never used at low-mid skill levels. Everyone used them at max and actually altered ttheir energy back then to have more energy. You're statement is off of the presumption that no one will invest points into their energy pool when in actuality a ton of players will.

Tweaking energy costs and %scales by 1 or 2 points isn't radical enough to render these skills usable again by everyone nor will it attract players.

So yes, it does require more skill points and more energy. But then again that's not really a problem. We can invest points into energy as we have back then and still do now, which we do indeed pull it off quite well. As far as skill points, most classes already have an abundance of them but you guys really should look into giving us more skill points for customization anyway.

Edit: And that's the point. "For str-supp bh its already an awesome skill" but with this suggestion it'll be an awesome skill for nearly all adequate build types.

Should this be implemented for berserker and massacre? Thisll only attract players a lot.

< Message edited by The berserker killer -- 1/25/2016 0:04:11 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 9
1/25/2016 0:10:51   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 I don't see why a skill should be good for all build types, most skills only reward those who invest enough in an appropriate stat. We don't see an f5 tech BH using Multi Shot effectively.

Plus Static Smash does improve with STR, as shown on the ED wiki here. The %drained is of the weapon used, but the % itself scales with STR.

Massacre and Berserker already do a ton of damage, people don't invest a lot into them not because they're unrewarding, but because they generally can't use them at high levels, especially due to Parasite.
Post #: 10
1/25/2016 0:23:31   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 That's exactly the point though. This suggestion wont make all build types viable but, if invested enough points into the skill, it will make all builds able to use them.

Well if it scales with strength then the fact that it's affected by kartherax has to be a bug which should be fixed. As soon as possible.

And parasite really isn't the issue. It's not that we can't use them at high levels, theyre just not worth it in its current state whereas they will be should they scale with strength
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 11
1/25/2016 12:06:15   
Mother1
Member

SSM

Try making it completely useless seeing as if this change happened the only thing it would affect is strike and the primary core. many Katerex owners would be furious if this happened.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 1/25/2016 12:07:39 >
Epic  Post #: 12
1/25/2016 12:24:49   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 Well one single core shouldn't be a counter to nearly all skills in the first place, which is the primary reason that: Bunny bot is restricted to strike only, cyber yeti cant block/deflect yeti fury/blood hawk/meteor&plasma strike, and azraels borg &the aux core doesn't affect hybrid armor & plasma/mineral armor. In it's current state Kartherax pretty much affects everything. If this change were to happen every other skill would still be affected by kartherax other than massacre, cheapshot, static smash and berserker which in actuality classifies as a nerf on such a miniscule scale.

Kartherax would still affect every other skill in this game, which is a lot so I really should not have to list them all out. This would simultaneously give select classes the buff they need without exactly overpowering them or rendering kartherax as useless.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 13
1/25/2016 13:05:46   
Mother1
Member

@ TBK

Everything but fireball seeing as it doesn't scale with the primary but the entire point of the katerax bot is that it is supposed to be an effective counter to strength builds. How is it supposed to do that if every move other than strike and the primary core is given immunity? Answer it won't be.

So unless the Katerax's effect was changed to become that of intimidate along with this change your change will destroy this robot and leave one less counter to strength builds.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 1/25/2016 13:06:43 >
Epic  Post #: 14
1/25/2016 19:17:28   
The berserker killer
Member

 

 I dont think you understand.

Once again, im not saying that every strength based skill should scale with strength. Only Berserker, Massacre, Cheap Shot, and Static smash.

That's 4 builds out of the MANY that are affected by Kartherax. I mean I guess I can list it out.

Kartherax will still affect the initial damage of:

-Primary
-Assimilation
-Bludgeon
-Frenzy
-Double Strike
-Static Charge
-Atom Smash
-Malf
-Smoke
-Intimidate
-Venom Strike
-Poison Grenade
-Parasite

I mean I can go on but I think the point is made.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 15
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