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7/7/2016 13:53:18   
leahnrachel
Banned

 

up the npc limit from 100-500 a day.

I know about bots, But when pvp is so badly balanced matchmaking wise this is a pretty simple bandaid, You can limit botting by adding captions just tonpc battles where you have to type in a random 15 letters long caption every x amount of battles..... if it fails the caption 3 times boot it from the server.
Post #: 1
7/7/2016 14:58:28   
nowras
Member

Bots can solve battle captchas and they are already a problem in ED so, of course, not supported.
AQW Epic  Post #: 2
7/7/2016 16:31:13   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


Both random and numerical equations were tested and both failed as they are no longer present in game. I'm not sure the results of the current system but the bot issue is helped greatly by using an internet based client instead of a downloaded client which just offers a wider array of tools.

As for upping NPC amounts it is very much a bandaid fix when the real issue is things like ranks creating more divides than the community currently can support
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 3
7/7/2016 17:12:40   
Lord Machaar
Member

^ Devs knew that botting is a problem, sure they placed captchas but soon they had to take them off. The question here is, why there wasn't a replacement since devs know botting can harm the game?
I'm not speaking about fighting botting itself, but making the game botting-proof. When it comes to NPCs, simply make them not give EXP after a certain rank. They lowered the sellback of all drops to 8 credits after it was 200 credits for some (super gem from davarril I believe), but that wouldn't solve it. Credits no longer give you advantage, EXP does through the legendary system. They shouldn't have lowered the sellback of drops, but also EXP coming from NPC wins.
MQ Epic  Post #: 4
7/7/2016 17:25:15   
leahnrachel
Banned

 

DO NOT I repeat DO NOT lower xp from npcs regardless of rank till you've balanced ranks see why in my last post in the matchmaking thread.
Post #: 5
7/7/2016 22:28:09   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


The only other systems that I think could be put in place is to reduce the amount of NPC wins back down to Beta and gamma levels of like 15 per hour but that also directly conflicts with missions that have NPC drops such as the super grind egg drop missions which would become multi day long missions each. But these systems were also tested and seeing how they are no longer in place they didn't pan out as planned.

The main issue is how much are you punishing legitimate players in your quest to root out illegitimate players and where we say a good line is may not be a good line for the development team and AE
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 6
7/8/2016 1:48:04   
Lord Machaar
Member

^ Limiting NPC exp to a certain rank won't do much harm to legit players, as such legit players are supposed to play a PVP game not AQW 2. I'm not saying that this should be implemented now because according to this graph http://puu.sh/pIlGL/998a680004.png , the pyramid is already inverted. Following this approach is like pouring water over sand, to get rid of illegitimate players, we need to start sending out bans and freeing the community.

This may serve as a way to stopping botting in case devs want to come up with a fix to legendary system/leveling up in general.
Also I've already detailed before that the first 30 ranks are the most important, if being spent on defense, resistance and either primary/auxilliary/damage. For the simple reason that builds like strenght builds, support builds and high dex builds only effectively use 30 rank slots. The only exception would be 5 focus builds, since they need 50 ranks.
- Support builds: Def, resis and aux damage.
- Str builds: Def, resis and primary damage.
- High dex builds: Def, resis and sidearm damage.
Sure other upgrading other stuff would serve you good, since as a high dex build user, you might use your aux sometimes, but guess what, not having such ranls and facing a player higher ranked than you gives you a higher chance to start, which is a great advantage.

So I don't really see how my suggestion would harm legit players, as after rank 30, anyone can carry out in PVP with no problems. It's a PVP game after all, and NPCing should be optional, what do we see now? Players with 50k/100k/150k NPC wins due to botting hitting high ranks with sometimes not even reaching 5k PVP wins, which is kinda absurd.


< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 7/8/2016 1:49:17 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 7
7/8/2016 4:34:43   
leahnrachel
Banned

 

I know your trying to stop bots , But I wouldn't want a 15 npc limit a hour it would stop me grinding on power hour.....and I'd actually lose out quite substantially overall as I wouldn't be logged in 24 hrs a day , Since PVE is the only serious option , without getting repeatedly seal clubbed for 36es- low ranked players.... I think the xp on npcs that can be acquired in a day needs improving, Till they can fix ranks....maybe you can only fight the same noc 40 times? or insert random number, I imagine a bot would struggle to keep changing locations.

I won't lie things are so bad in 1v1 and 2v2 I've considered buying a silver skull card and creating a quick lose build and farming exp in juggernaut to get to a level where I wont get seal clubbed...

Its not against the rules either.

I don't want to do it but what are low level / rankers supposed to do ? spend 160k worth of xp from 36-rank 20 in 1v1 where they will constantly be put in fights they have little chance of winning with a underdog that makes no difference at all , or play in 2v2 where the lower level / ranker has to be able to take the punishment off two higher levels And/or rankers and be able to match the damage return , Your screwed either way , And with only 100 npc wins a day , What are we supposed to , Hope we fight morons repeatedly who don't know how to capitalise on "seal clubbing mode" ?

I cant believe i'm about to say this but I've always been against this in all pvp games, This problem needs fixing extremely quickly , since I know this cannot be done , It NEEDS band aiding till it can be fixed a proper band aid and the only one I can see that's going to effective till ranks lose the pvp advantage/get removed, is essentially making this a pve game from 36 - a rank where pvp isn't "please stop playing the game"

I'd settle for a rise to 250 npc per day. makes leveling at 36-40 decent rank a lil less painful.

People are not going to actively pvp at these levels anyway , 5 -10 battles a day tops.... So your not hurting anyone tbh...

< Message edited by leahnrachel -- 7/8/2016 5:41:28 >
Post #: 8
7/8/2016 12:39:46   
Lord Machaar
Member

quote:

I'd settle for a rise to 250 npc per day. makes leveling at 36-40 decent rank a lil less painful.

You are looking at a smaller picture right here. Sure, get 1k NPC battles per day, you'd reach level 40 rank 1, and? You think PVP is playable at that rank? It is totally not, until rank 30.
Now let's say you reached level 40 rank 1 in a short time thanks to increasing the NPC limit, but if you look at the bigger picture, you just helped a lot of botters to gain a huge amount of ranks due to that. You might reach level 40 thanks to this band-aid, but you just opened up the game for more botters to hit higher ranks making this graph even more screwed up. In the end, you will follow the sheep and bot till rank 60.

Although, if devs can higher up the NPC limit for only level 36 - 40 players then that'd be awesome. Meaning that only a play level 36 can do up to 250 battles versus NPCs in a day, once you hit rank 10, let's say, NPC limit goes back to 100, once you hit rank 30, NPC limit gets lower to 50.
MQ Epic  Post #: 9
7/8/2016 13:07:11   
leahnrachel
Banned

 

you have to think of the impact of having to npc because pvp is so badly balanced , with a maximum reward free wise of 2400 xp per day and that would take bothe power hours to accomplish so its less.

100 npcs log out , for 4 levels and 20 ranks , how long before they stop coming back , the amount of days it takes needs to be dramatically reduced till ranks are fixed so pvp can actually be played in.
Post #: 10
7/8/2016 13:48:51   
Lord Machaar
Member

^ Well that's what I basically suggested up there. If players from level 36 to rank 20 have the right to do 250 NPC battles per day, they can go from level 36 to rank 20 in 1-2 months (depending on how active they are).

As the experience needed to jump from level 36 to 40 is around 22k EXP. And EXP needed to earn 20 ranks is 150k EXP. Then the grand total is 172k EXP.
In best case scenario, if you can do 100 NPC wins on PH, then that's 2.4 EXP. And since the suggestion makes the NPC limit 250, then let's say you can do another 100 wins on PH which is another 2.4k EXP. On a day you can make 4.8k EXP. 22k/4.8k = 4.5 days and 150k/4.8k = 31 days. So you can basically jump from level 36 to rank 20 in 35 days, in case you use the legitimate way of botting, which in fact I encourage level 36 to do it. I mean players with 150k - 100k NPC wins got away with it.
In worst case scenario, and you can't play on PH, then you can hit that in 2 months time.

When such players reach rank 20, then the NPC limit can be brought down to 50/100, in that case, we don't witness another 400 players reaching rank 60 in no time thanks to botting, it will only make the game worse.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 7/8/2016 13:49:33 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 11
7/9/2016 20:16:42   
shadow.bane
Member

@machaar you still a rank 80 minus so I wouldn't believe u will understand what am gonna say here but let's say your a rank 60 facing a rank 59 it's kinda the same when u have 1 legendary point higher than ur opponent and he have the underdog level 1 which gives (1 strength/dexterity/tech/support + 5 % more chance to start) now could u explain how fair is this ? and if ur a rank 80 facing a rank 59 which get underdog level 3 which is (2 strength/dexterity/tech/support and 15 % to start first) or whatever it's the starting first % in this case.
could you explain to me why rank 80 having 1 more aux/gun etc... damage and 20 extra heal with minus 10 energy cost from cores fighting a rank 49 - 59 - 69 - 79 is fair in your opinion? not to mention the extra stats given to underdog players which increases the block/deflection/critical % and give them the advantage of starting first up to 80 %? how this is fair in your opinion could you persuade me or something?

Edit : I personally support the 15 npcs per hour which make them 360 npcs per day and not all 100 targetable during power hour and take in consideration no one would be staying up 24 hours just to do this much npcs.
somehow this will lower the amount of npcs playing per day for a player cause I don't think anyone have more than 5 - 10 hours to play ED per day.

For me ? I rather that I stayed rank 40 - 55 and not rank up more to spam pvp but eh gotta rank up more than 55 someday.
like 80 % of my pvp been done between rank 20 to now ... on rank 20 - 30 got 85 % in pvp rank 30 - 60 between 85 % - 95 % and drastically lowered above rank 60 to reach a stunning 75 % - 85 % win ratio.

Oh and @lord machaar the scenario u provided is actually perfect I mean about the limitation of npcs in certain level/rank is actually a good idea that can work.

< Message edited by shadow.bane -- 7/9/2016 20:28:22 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 12
7/9/2016 22:03:14   
Lord Machaar
Member

I'm still a rank 80 minus because I played the game legitimately. And if anyone did that, we wouldn't be seeing too many players with 100+ ranks.
http://puu.sh/pWlr4/95cdf09cef.jpg
http://puu.sh/pWluC/0e518cc266.jpg
It took me 25,215 1vs1 wins and 1580 2vs2 wins in almost 3 years to go from level 35 to rank 65.
Read those numbers carefully. As an active player, it took me 2 years and 8 months and 5 days (from 5th of December 2014 to July 10th 2016). A lazy player who didn't have the option to bot NPCs would take him 6 - 8 years.
Meaning that many lazy cheaters shouldn't be high ranks now screwing the game and making high rank players outnumber lower rank players.
When botters can reach rank 60, from a level 1 account, in 6 months (10 ranks per month) - 1 year. Then you can tell how botting made the legendary system worser than it already is. Those who botted NPCs and didn't enjoy the game playing PVP when they had ranks can't complain now for "Rank 80 being underpowered".

If we are going to buff rank 80s/70s, we will be rewarding way more botters than legit players. Remove the legendary system or clean the game first, then we can talk.

quote:

Edit : I personally support the 15 npcs per hour which make them 360 npcs per day and not all 100 targetable during power hour and take in consideration no one would be staying up 24 hours just to do this much npcs.

Bots can. It only takes 1 botter to know a trick or a glitch, then share it with his friends. Hence why you always find players with 20k-30k-40k+ NPC wins in groups, since they back up each other with latest botting tools and quick builds.

quote:

Oh and @lord machaar the scenario u provided is actually perfect I mean about the limitation of npcs in certain level/rank is actually a good idea that can work.

http://puu.sh/pIlGL/998a680004.png The pyramid is already inverted. My suggestion will work when the game is cleaned.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 7/9/2016 22:04:06 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 13
7/10/2016 1:10:53   
shadow.bane
Member

^ you still didn't give me a clear answer on how fair it is ?
AQW Epic  Post #: 14
7/10/2016 8:50:45   
nowras
Member

''Every other game in the milky way'' I swear it made me laugh so hard. xDDDD




quote:

If we are going to buff rank 80s/70s, we will be rewarding way more botters than legit players. Remove the legendary system or clean the game first, then we can talk.


But there's still some legit players like me who suffered before and after underdog mode. I never ever felt like I had an advantage over almost all my opponents except when I reached level 40 the 7th and as a result I did the biggest streak in my records (not in one day though) (250-0) without using +6 cores and used to get very high %s (97.7%+) with very high wins (200+). After they nerfed TM, I quit the game for a while then returned back when everyone was rank 40+ and had to tolerate playing against them without underdog mode so, my %s never reached 95% again until I reached rank 60 but, I got shocked that just a few days later after I reached 60 they brought underdog mode and now the best rank ever isn't 60 or 70 or 80. It's 49. That's why we should get a buff or feel like we have a small advantage over our opponents regardless of these botters.

Well, there's another solution. As you said, after reaching rank 20, NPC wins shall not give experience but, how can we make it fair for those new players and punish botters?
Simply, every NPC win gives at least 9 EXP which means, if someone has 40,000 NPC wins and he's a rank 114. Since each rank needs 7,500 EXP his EXP shall be reduced by 40,000 x 9 = 360,000 EXP but, since he can NPC till rank 20 we will have to give him extra EXP = 20 x 7500 = 150,000 EXP. So, his EXP shall be reduced by 360,000 - 150,000 = 210,000. This means his rank would go down by 28 ranks so, his rank will become 114 - 28 = 86. His cheevo progress shall not be changed I guess because it will be hard to do that for the devs.

While we ignored that he might have NPC'd after the daily limit, we also ignored power hours and power weekends and we also, ignored that he might have fought NPCs that give more than 9 EXP. So, in total it's fair and can be also better for him but, never worse.

< Message edited by nowras -- 7/10/2016 8:53:25 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 15
7/10/2016 9:00:05   
Noobatron x3000
Member

I have a better solution that fixes everything. Make ranks cosmetic / npc rewards, And remove ranks, Underdog breaks the game , But so do ranks.

Pretty obvious really lose the pvp advantage , Put all 40s on a level playing field.... Yes the game will still be broken , But less broken.

Its pretty obvious really , Or continue with the pvp advantage on ranks and wait times for 2v2 games will remain 6-8 minutes infact probably go up.

Your move ED devs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRXSjjIaERk
poor 38 look at your rank he doesn't stand a chance. how many games was that he was pitt against you 4/5? They were free wins tarnishing your records credibility , you should not want this.

The only people beating you are the ones close to your rank in most of your vids? Hm maybe underdog isn't helping at all?

Videos all over youtube prove how broken ranks are and how little underdog helps.

You are completely reliant on luck to win as underdog, Or your opponent being pretty clueless not knowing how to use his build.

< Message edited by Noobatron x3000 -- 7/10/2016 9:28:01 >
Post #: 16
7/10/2016 13:56:41   
Lord Machaar
Member

quote:

^ you still didn't give me a clear answer on how fair it is ?

Neither low rank and level 36 - 39 players facing high rank botters is fair. If there weren't botters in-game, we wouldn't be having an underdog mode right now, and we wouldn't be having this dilemma.

If you calculate luck chances your opponent earns by having +1 tech/supp/dex,
Deflection chance = 1/5 = 0.2% More chance to deflect. And by having +2 tech it's 0.4%.
Critical strike chance = 1/7.5 = 0.13% More chance to crit. When it's +2 support, it's 0.26%.
Block chance = 1/5 = 0.2% More chance to block. 0.4% when your opponent has 2 more dex.
Reference: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=22061908
+1 dex/tech/supp/str merely boosts your weapons damage or skills' damage in a minimal way, and it will be neglectable due to RNG. If you are going to blame your losses on such minimal numbers, when you lose by 400 - 500 - 600 HP, then that means you are just soothing yourself of a well deserved loss. Losers when they lose, they start looking for excuses to make themselves feel better, not for reasons to improve and alter their builds. As a PVP player, I learned how to adapt with different situations.

quote:

damage and 20 extra heal with minus 10 energy cost from cores fighting a rank 49 - 59 - 69 - 79 is fair in your opinion?

You make it sound like every player you face in PVP has these ranks. Give some names of good players that are using these ranks? And so if there are players using these ranks, few of them use builds that encounter yours, and few them play good. And also how many rank 49 players are there? Got any names? And between these rank 49 players, which one of them is smart enough to use his build, or uses a build that encounters yours. Asking for a buff because in 10% of your battles you face players with a slight advantage over you means that players with low ranks should quit the game since they are in disadvantage in 100% of their games.
Energy efficiency can be lethal, -10 energy will allow you to use different cores with less energy, azrael's will, frost shards, dread aux's special, that's minus 30 energy. You can tweak your build to be more efficient using energy efficiency, making it better than +1 dex/str/supp/tech in some cases.

Botters are like the people born with a silver spoon in their mouth, when the game gets a little bit hard for them, they start whinning. If you played PVP at lower ranks versus high rank NPC botters, you would know what unfair truly means. Crying because of +1 dex/tech/supp/str makes me laugh and shows how bottings NPCs make players weak.

I'm not the type of player who blame his losses on +1 dex/tech/supp/str, which is neglectable due to RNG. I've played games where I had way less advantage (Low ranks) and I still won. That's because I played PVP instead of botting NPCs, hence why I have a different way of thinking than you. When a botter earns fast ranks due to botting, it will look like it's unfair.

@Nowras:
You make it sound like 80% - 90% is a bad winning ratio. It is not and you are not meant to win every battle. The reason why enhancements were removed was clear, var players had way more advantage than non-var players, hence why some var players had 90% - 100% winning ratio. Why enhancements were removed? If devs were going to give certain players huge advantage, they wouldn't have removed enhancements, since enhancements did that, only players had to spend thousands of dollars on that. What players are doing now to have that winning ratio? Exactly, botting NPCS, which is quite funny. In this case, I'd rather keep enhancements since they benefit the game earning devs some $$$ to introduce features.

The thing is, high rank players used to have 80% - 90% + win ratio, in any game out there, that will never be the case. You name it, league of legends, FPS games, any game. Except for very skilled players who have played for years and years. Now it's funny when botters in ED are asking to have this winning ratio thanks to a PVP advantage, not earned by winning PVP battles or spending time on the game, but with cheating. Which is illogical. Players in other games spend hours and hours grinding, PVPing, and their winning ratio is way less than 70%.

Not even Legit players should have 90% - 80%.. If a player has that, it directly means tons of other players are having 30% - 40% - 50% - 60% winning ratios which is bad for the game. Now in order to give legit players an advantage to have a good winning ratio, which is their right, you will be also buffing botters, which will destroy the game.

quote:

While we ignored that he might have NPC'd after the daily limit, we also ignored power hours and power weekends and we also, ignored that he might have fought NPCs that give more than 9 EXP. So, in total it's fair and can be also better for him but, never worse.

It's like making a peace agreement with botters, bringing some of them down to a favorable rank. A band-aid won't help in this case, eradication is the key.

< Message edited by Lord Machaar -- 7/10/2016 14:52:37 >
MQ Epic  Post #: 17
7/10/2016 14:28:37   
nowras
Member

And how can we eradicate it? We can't so, a Band-Aid is the best option.
AQW Epic  Post #: 18
7/10/2016 15:05:21   
shadow.bane
Member

@lord machaar I said it once and I say it again you are not a rank 80 to know what are high ranks going thru right now (rank 80 +) when u reach that rank am 200 % sure u will join our club.
and if u haven't noticed I only use frost shards in my cores that need energy cause my gun core is always energy shot I rarely use Azrael and aux core is empty cause I chose to and of course generator in armor core... so the only advantage I have here is 60 energy needed for frost shards from 70 energy it's original cost which I paid hmmm 150 k credits to unlock it and 10 ranks wasted and level 1 underdog extra for my opponent.
yeah rarely people can counter my gameplay but when an unknown and unexplainable block/deflection/critical comes talking about many well can't do anything when the odds are against you.
AQW Epic  Post #: 19
7/10/2016 15:12:34   
Noobatron x3000
Member

Simple solution remove underdog , and make ranks cosmetic based no pvp advantage , everyone wins , Player retention rises, the underdogs don't feel cheated , the high rank players get to fight fair fights

Because I'm sure as respectable pros you don't want underdog nerfing so your getting free wins, That's why you were all on the forums fighting to get legend ranks nerfed before underdog was introduced, Because your ranks with no underdog was essentially free wins?

Wait whats that you say? You were not complaining ? Hm

Not that I am in anyway insinuating underdog is helpful at all in almost all cases. Just pointing out the irony.

< Message edited by Noobatron x3000 -- 7/10/2016 15:13:46 >
Post #: 20
7/10/2016 16:56:39   
8x
Member

What if they took the experience away from NPCs and made them unlimited? That way you could earn as many credits as you want from NPCs, but the only way to actually advance through the levels would be PvP. ED has always been cruel to lower levels PvP-wise. Except, when you were the max level 31 and bashing lower levels it wasn't as noticeable as it might be now.

I just feel like the only way to deal with this is a major change (not necessary the one that I suggested), band aid fixes are pointless. Feel free to ignore this, if you think that my suggestion is complete nonsense.
Epic  Post #: 21
7/10/2016 17:07:29   
Noobatron x3000
Member

They would have to essentially reset everyone to rank 1 to make that change 8x.....

And the pvp advantage with ranks is fundamentally broken as the devs are well aware , you would need a active player base 20 x the size of the current base actively pvping to have any hope of balancing a 140 tier system with 3 modes....

And 20x probably isn't enough. and I mean atleast 20 x the 100 - 300 people logging in and not afking actively battling , and I feel it isn't enough thinking about 3 modes , 2000-6000 people 140 tiers.....assuming their all pvping around 15 people per tier at the low end , around 45 at the 6k end , 5 people per mode at the low end , 15 people per mode at the high end.

Yeah even that wouldn't be enough .... To balance ranks even I can work this out.....

How did ranks make it in , In this form , when they knew the playerbase numbers , I'm truly perplexed.... It took me 3 minutes , All be rudimentarily with some basic maths, To figure out it would never be balanced.

< Message edited by Noobatron x3000 -- 7/10/2016 17:12:35 >
Post #: 22
7/10/2016 17:14:13   
nowras
Member

@8x
Well, my suggestions were pretty much good but, nobody is replying to me on the forums. And since ED team doesn't look at suggestions with 0 replies I'm not expecting it to be implemented even though it's the best possible change that could happen to underdog mode.
Feel free to read it here.
AQW Epic  Post #: 23
7/10/2016 17:28:17   
8x
Member

@Noobatron x3000
Yup, obviously the ranks would have to be completely changed or removed. But I doubt that they would ever want to bother with ranks.

quote:

How did ranks make it in , In this form , when they knew the playerbase numbers , I'm truly perplexed.... It took me 3 minutes , All be rudimentarily with some basic maths, To figure out it would never be balanced.

Over the years that I've been playing this game, there have been plenty of moments when I said to myself "Why the heck did they ever think this would be a good idea?". It usually took me seconds to realize that (and this was usually within a few minutes of the new release). I'd guess they just lack the players point of view. Sure, they have testers, but just them saying "I'm not sure about this change" would never change the devs' minds.

@nowras
Nobody is replying to your thread because they know that messing with the underdog mode is pointless with the rank system still as it is. (just a guess)
Epic  Post #: 24
7/10/2016 17:33:54   
nowras
Member

You guessed wrong then. Because I'm suggesting a buff for people that are low ranked and a nerf for rank 49 players. I don't have to explain to you why 49 is currently better than 80 because I explained it a lot and I'm tired of explaining it anymore. My suggestion would actually, make PvP playable for low level players and low ranked players and would make it fair when a 80 fights a 49 (the 80 will just get a very little advantage.)

< Message edited by nowras -- 7/10/2016 17:34:13 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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