RE: Harbinger Feedback


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Harbinger Feedback

Too strong (post PvE or PvP)

1% (2)

Too weak (post PvE or PvP)

14% (15)

Is this class useful to you? YES

12% (13)

Is this class useful to you? NO

9% (10)

Is this class fun to use? YES

17% (18)

Is this class fun to use? NO

6% (7)

Will this class replace any for you? YES (post which)

0% (0)

Will this class replace any for you? NO

18% (19)

Would you rather use another class? YES (post which)

16% (17)

Would you rather use another class? NO

1% (2)

Total Votes : 103

(last vote on : 3/7/2018 5:13:14)
(Poll will run till: -- )

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3/3/2018 20:20:50

The Fire Eyes
Member

So far, the class is really fun and intresting to use. The class is amazing in a party and insane in pvp, especially 1v1s. I have defeated multiple VHLs with it. However, the main issue that I see is that the only way to bring health down to make the class viable is Blood Price, which we can't loop/stack without dying. Also, the only use to Blood Price at this point seems to be dropping the health, as it doesn't seem to provide a significant buff to damage or crit chance, as Soul Rend doesn't crit most of the time. I think that Blood Price should be more useful, and my suggestion is adding a haste boost to this skill. Soul Rend, as the main damage dealer of the class, should be changed to be guarenteed hit and crit, guarenteed only when exalted is active, but obviously not dependant on exalted. However, since the Blood Price does too much damage to be stacked or looped without dying, maybe Soul Leech (or Soul Snare) gives a reduction to damage taken when exalted is active as well as heal, lasting the same 10 seconds required for exalted to be used again, and just enough to help survive the damage from Blood Price. I only say Soul Snare because Soul Leech has such a small cooldown compared to Blood Price, and could be used longer that necessary to use Blood Price again. The only thing that is imperative is that the class doesn't end up like Vampire Lord where the last skill is the only way the class is good or viable and can't be looped/reused.

Summary:
Blood Price gets a haste boost.
Soul Rend is guarenteed hit and crit with exalted.
Soul Leech (or Soul Snare) also provieds a damage reduction while exalted is active, to keep Blood Price loopable.

< Message edited by The Fire Eyes -- 3/3/2018 20:25:50 >

Post #: 26

3/4/2018 2:37:23

Loftyz
Member

Something I noticed is that the 3 doesn't heal you if it misses, whereas Legion Doomknight still heals if its heal skill misses. Also, more testing.

# of 5 stacks, non crit damage, crit damage, and crit multiplier in brackets
Unarmed, full lvl 85 luck enhancements, no damage buffs
EDIT: these numbers are from before the damage buff of 5 was nerfed.

0 stacks 486-1735 (3.57)
1 stacks 994-3626 (3.57 + 0.08)
2 stacks 994-3786 (3.57 + 0.24)
3 stacks 994-3866 (3.57 + 0.32)
4 stacks 994-3943 (3.57 + 0.40)

Each stack of the 5 adds an extra 8% crit damage, except the 2nd stack of 5 which adds 16% crit damage (see my previous post for how +% crit damage appears to work).

The extra crit damage still ends up barely contributing any damage though. At 4 stacks of the 5, with my setup, only an extra 8.7% damage is gained on crits compared to maintaining 1 stack of the 5.

I think crit damage +% should just be changed or removed from the game because it's way too underwhelming and misleading. Most players and probably class designers think that +8% crit damage means crits deal 8% more damage, but that's not how crit damage is calculated.

These stacks really won't help you keep up your DPS in a party where you can't consistently keep your HP low because of Lightcaster/Archpaladin/Stonecrusher heals and HoTs. And they will only help if you are critting a lot with Full Luck, but the last thing the game needs right now is more "Full Luck, crit everything, 2 damages, 3 heals, 4 shields, 5 is your ultimate" classes.

< Message edited by Loftyz -- 3/5/2018 6:51:21 >

AQW

Post #: 27

3/4/2018 5:14:38

Luux
Member

The class feels clunky and its hit chance doesn't help it either. Perhaps a decrease in Soul Rend's CD would help it deal damage a little faster and the 15% damage taken passive changed to 15% hit chance?

AQW

Post #: 28

3/4/2018 8:54:44

you stop
Member

more Blood Price testing

exalted harbinger 5 skill test
>class, helm, cape are lvl 85 luck enh
>weap will be enh with lvl 83 luck, wiz, fighter enh. lvl 83 bc same enh stats as awe enh.
>5's self damage isnt affected by weapon range

wiz: 903, 1846
luck: 877, 1792
fighter: 873, 1784
lvl 85 fighter on class, luck everything else with awe on weap: 869, 1776

luck: 816, 1667. arklen changed it according to his twitter

i havent gone to dps testing as im extremely hoping that this class receives some sort of rebalance with its rank 4 passives and 5 skill mechanics. also as loftyz pointed out, i think 3 skill also needs to still heal even while missing. i disagree with what aura knight stated regarding making Soul Rend a guaranteed crit. i think that's a little too much considering you dont even have to bring yourself to extremely low hp to do high damage with it. i dont mind it being a guaranteed hit though.

< Message edited by you stop -- 3/4/2018 9:26:42 >

AQW	Post #: 29

3/4/2018 9:26:36

The Fire Eyes
Member

the 5 skill just got changed.
Arklen on twitter: Made a small change to Exalted Harbinger's Blood Price after reading everyone's feedback. It deals slightly less damage (very slightly) and there is a note with how to stack it to 4, although it will still be very difficult.'

Post #: 30

3/4/2018 10:39:52

XeNON_54
Member

They need to fix Harbinger's Heal missing sometimes. Heals should not miss. Period.

Post #: 31

3/4/2018 10:59:41

Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!

I don't know what all this "missing heals" is about. Neither misses, nor dodges seems to affect the actual healing part of the skill. I know that it works like that on Testing Servers, but on live servers it shouldn't not heal. Not even LDK heals on misses on PTR servers, so I have no idea what's happening on your ends.
Yup, just spend the last 5 minutes trying to miss with Soul Leech and it did in fact heal me on a miss.

And about the change, it's better than nothing, if nothing else, it's slightly safer to use the class with NSoD now.

< Message edited by Metakirby -- 3/4/2018 11:14:31 >

AQW	Post #: 32

3/4/2018 11:13:14

G Man
Member

Still not going to make me use the class.
If you can easily kill yourself from the class, it is NOT fun, nor is it good, nor is it balanced..
If I want higher damage, and/or safe soloing I'll just simply LC/UOK/LDMK/any other class that fits the bill.
You know... classes that don't kill me for no reason.

AQW

Post #: 33

3/4/2018 11:30:08

The Fire Eyes
Member

IMO the 5 skill makes you think about when to use it and makes the class more intresting/fun to use. It's not just a button masher if you want a good damage output. However, the damage output is still pretty low compared to other classes, and the solution I see is to decrease cooldowns or give a skill a haste increase effect.
Outside of soloing, this class dominates pvp and is amazing in a group, so still useful to me even if no more changes come.

< Message edited by The Fire Eyes -- 3/4/2018 11:32:03 >

Post #: 34

3/4/2018 11:46:21

Aura Knight
Banned

The only way you can easily kill yourself with the class is if you're not careful. A class that makes us think before using skills is great. Obviously Exalted Harbinger isn't the best, but that's okay. It's unique enough to stand out. The class has nice animations and effects. Yes, these skills do seem to be more suited towards 1v1 but that doesn't mean the class is unable to do anything in PvE. As I've mentioned earlier, it just has a limit on what it can handle and that is perfectly fine.

edit: Oh the class got a minor change? I'll have to see how that helps.

Oh nice, now it does 800 and 1635 damage for me. Before it was 860 and 1757. Still fairly high but better than before. Now, if only it could be given a bit of a damage reduction too. Such a thing would be amazing. Or a haste boost/ cooldown change to skill 4 so we can almost loop the -90 hit chance for monsters. Since the class is meant to do better damage when we're at low hp, this would be an appropriate change. Just hope it won't make the class too powerful.

"Exalted stacks to 4, although you won't be able to stack it without help from a good healing and buffing ally." This seems to be the added text to the skill. Idk how to feel about this. But, it's not as if we have to stack the skill to 4. It was already pointed out that the boost from it being at 4 stacks isn't anything amazing compared to 1 use of the skill. I still think the stacking part was a mistake on this. Should just give us the full boost after 1 use but have the duration of Exalted expire a bit quicker.

< Message edited by Aura Knight -- 3/4/2018 11:54:50 >

AQW

Post #: 35

3/4/2018 13:15:16

iDreadnaut
Member

I guess this class is just not my cup of tea. Not being to get to full potential on its own is a really turn off to me (I'm not really a team player), however small the difference of 4x Exalted stacks might seem. Seems like a good class in pvp, but pvp in this game is obsolete to me (no ranking, old lackluster rewards, no incentive). Going full bank with it until new interesting changes are made.

< Message edited by iDreadnaut -- 3/4/2018 13:32:34 >

AQW	Post #: 36

3/4/2018 13:21:16

zanathos
Member

I like that Exalted can't reach the full 4 stacks without some sort of support class, because despite the current class trend/player attitude, AQW isn't a solo game. Hoping classes in the rewrite bring back group focused combat and end these jack of all trades, kill everything easy classes.

AQW

Post #: 37

3/4/2018 13:25:11

Aura Knight
Banned

One question, and I'm not sure if I should be asking here or in class discussion, but does the soul snare skill only work if the monster is fighting just you or does it also make it practically unable to hit anyone in a group too? If it's the latter, we might have another nice support ability here.

AQW

Post #: 38

3/4/2018 13:29:01

Doxus the OverLord
Member

After all, I reached the conclusion that this class can be near to something in terms of power if Soul Snare become loopable or near of it.
This would be the final adjustment and so, the class would be a lot powerfull. If it's low HP we need to hit heavy, so, all we need is to make our sustain while low health be better.

Other nice thing, as said above, would be making the Soul Leech work as the healing of LDmK (ever healing, despite it landed a hit or not).

< Message edited by Doxus the OverLord -- 3/4/2018 13:31:22 >

Post #: 39

3/4/2018 13:54:48

Yumi Hearts
Member

Well, so far i been really interested in this class and i quite like it. I won't say the damage is a problem in this class, the class has an amazing damage overall. And in terms of survivability is good and all but i theres 3 things that i find they should get change. Again is just my personal opinion:

- 3rd Skill - Soul Leech: Okay, what i don't like about this if its "good"? Simple: is pretty similar to Classic Legion Doomknight Heal. I don't say that is not bad that is similar, but i would like to see that the class has more "unique" things instead of having similar things from other classes. Is still a good heal.

- Rank 4 Passive - No Pain No Gain: Okay, i think heres something that i don't like at all. Theres no reason to increase more the damage that you take, since you take enough from Blood Price. And if you look at more "Actual" classes, they all have really good rank 4 and 10 passives while this just increases the damage that you take. I know it fits the theme of the class about taking damage and all, but with the new Soul Snare you rarely take damage from your enemy and, if you do, you can easily heal back. There's no reason to this keep this passive, i think it should be change to something more useful like a Crit/Hit chance boost. (Of course not a Haste one, it would make the class really powerful i think :P)

- 5th Skill - Blood Price: Too much self-damage after stacking it once, and i don't find the reward of stacking that "useful". Yeah, more crit damage, but first i need to crit to make use of it. The 15% crit boost is nice, but i think it should a bit higher to make the damage crit boost more useful. Most of the time i just wait till Blood Price fades to use it again. Also the new change, i think that the class has to have some "power" alone. I don't like classes that rellys on other to do they job and also, not all players like to go in party most of the time. Maybe changing the stacking reward or buffing Blood Price itself to make it still a risky skill to use, but with huge reward if you play correctly to stack it up. (I like rewarding things for playing well)

I know it's kinda long but here a bit of my opinion on the class, i like it but overall needs some more help to work way better. It doesn't need damage buffs, but changes in the base things of it would make it a great class.

AQW	Post #: 40

3/4/2018 16:14:23

Doxus the OverLord
Member

At the end, I understand the point of needing others to be better buffed. This makes a lot of sense. So, I don't think that Blood Price needs to get its self-inflicted damage reduced.
All I think that the class needs is two things:

1. Make Soul Snare loopable, it would greatly increase it's solo performance and sustain;
2. Make Soul Leech be the same as the LDmK healing skill is. It don't need to land a hit for healing, it just needs to be used. The same should apply here.

Post #: 41

3/4/2018 16:20:18

ArchNero
Member

Hmm my heals don't miss either, I still heal even if I miss.

If I was to suggest any changes, why not let blood price have it's own self inflicted "Decay, cannot heal!" like LBMA, that last longer beyond the cooldown of blood price, so soul rend damage doesn't get hampered by healing classes. However even with that above change, stacking blood price by yourself is not so easy to do, unless soul leach healed more or if blood price had lower self inflicted damage, esp after going for a 2nd stack and onwards.

Post #: 42

3/4/2018 16:23:41

Aura Knight
Banned

A decay effect would be fine as long as soul leech gets an additional effect which still helps us survive without a heal. Soul snare is amazing but that time when it's still in cooldown with effect ended is critical. If a monster hits you then, you likely lose depending on how much damage it does. But if we keep healing ourselves back to full hp, the soul rend skill loses power. The class needs a way to take us to low hp and then make sure we can stay there so our soul rend skill can continue to do high damage.

AQW

Post #: 43

3/4/2018 16:56:03

Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!

quote:

Make Soul Snare loopable, it would greatly increase it's solo performance and sustain;

Soul Snare is fine as it is, it's already 10 seconds of near invulnerability due to the enemy having close to, if not 0% chance of hitting you with their natural miss chance and your own dodge factored in, with only an approximate 6 second of downtime with max level haste. It would would be loopable with a Stonecrusher though, giving you an outrageously good support class with good damage on top. It has already shown that it can easily solo high damage enemies like Dire Groglurk pretty consistently, which is the mark of a great soloing class IMO. Note that when I say great soloing class, I don't necessarily mean VHL/AP tier sustain, but what you would expect from a class which is considered good at soloing like UOK, LDK, Stonecrusher, Glacial Berserker etc. You definitely need to be more mindful with your HP though, staying at higher hp values and letting the enemy hit you down while you are waiting for Soul Snare and supplementing with Blood Price damage if needed seems to work well vs enemies that hit VERY HARD. Vs any mid tier damaging enemy and lower, you can usually afford to play very risky.

One thing that I have noticed about the class though, is that server lag is one of your greater enemies while using the class. Lets say I am planning to go low on HP then activate Soul Snare, but then Soul Snare decides it wont feel like activating, but the enemy can still attack me. I had a well thought out plan, but the game said "NO!". This sort of thing has happened to me a little too often over the course of the weekend, I feel.

< Message edited by Metakirby -- 3/5/2018 18:47:04 >

AQW	Post #: 44

3/4/2018 17:50:36

Beshin Adin
Member

Do people not see that Soul Rend/Blood Price is a great combo?

AQW

Post #: 45

3/4/2018 17:56:38

The Fire Eyes
Member

I think that the only changes the class needs at this point are a small(ish) increase on the heal and either a skill providing a haste boost, reduced cooldowns on the first 2 skills, or both. Blood Price's only purpose at this point is essentially just dropping health, as the boosts it provides are very small, so adding a haste boost to that makes sense. Other than that the class does fine. You can stay at low health with Soul Snare active and get two 10k+ crits before healing if you play it right, then repeat fairly quickly.

The other thing I've noticed is that the second and third stack of Blood Price seem to do the same amount of damage to me when looping it (I've never reached 4 stacks without dying). The first use of Blood Price does 1042 and the second and third both do 2130 (level 82 full luck spiral carve). Am I the only one experiencing the repeated amount of damage for the second and third use?
Anyway, In the case that the uses after the first use are all that same self damage, Blood Price will indeed be loopable if the heal is buffed like I think it should be.

< Message edited by The Fire Eyes -- 3/4/2018 19:56:29 >

Post #: 46

3/4/2018 18:13:39

Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!

quote:

Blood Price's only purpose at this point is essentially just dropping health, as the boosts it provides are very small

Apparently doing double damage is a insignificant boost to you. I don't know what world you are living in, but in AQW, that is a huge deal and there's a clear difference between Blood Price and no Blood Price damage numbers.

quote:

The first use of Blood Price does 1042 and the second and third both do 2130 (level 82 full luck spiral carve). Am I the only one experiencing this?

The self damage from Blood Price is affected by any and all damage boosts and/or damage mitigation, because you are literally hitting yourself. This includes items with universal damage boosts (Burning Blades, NSoD, AFDL pieces etc.) and the damage boost from Blood Price as well, so because your damage is essentially doubled, so is the damage you do to yourself. I'm assuming you are using Burning Blade 2.0, since my first and second use of Blood Price is 939 and 1919 respectively with a 15% damage boost item (lvl 85 Full Luck + Awe Enhancement).

< Message edited by Metakirby -- 3/4/2018 18:15:27 >

AQW	Post #: 47

3/4/2018 18:16:51

Aura Knight
Banned

The 120% boost is amazing. It's a shame when soul rend misses. I think a nice feature the class could get is for us to be unable to miss with skills whenever we're at low health. Especially on Soul Rend. A hit chance increase could be good for exalted harbinger as well as the clones. And as much as I'd like to see soul snare be easier to loop, any change to the cooldown would probably come with a reduction in the hit chance reduction number. We have it at 90% now but it's possible it could go down to let's say 75 should the cooldown be altered.

AQW

Post #: 48

3/4/2018 20:16:11

The Pale Emperor
Member

I did some DPS testing with Harbinger + Stonecrusher against VHL + Stonecrusher. The results are, quite honestly, extremely impressive.

This is all copied from my post on the AQW subreddit:
"The tests were done at level 85, full luck (level 85 enhancements), a stable weapon, and one 15% damage boosted item. The stonecrusher was a level 50 (decided to go with a low level to try and showcase the individual DPS of these classes), had full luck enhancements, and a stable weapon. The enemy was the Doom Overlord from /necrodungeon.

Bolded values are averages.

Exalted Harbinger

Time | DPS
1:09.57 | 9,921.66
1:17.36 | 8,919.66
1.05.00 | 10,615.76
1.19.01 | 8,723.45
1.06.66 | 10,351.41
1:11.65 | 9,633.63

Void Highlord

Time | DPS
1.07.90 | 10,162.37
1.11.69 | 9,625.12
1.06.67 | 10,349.86
1.11.99 | 9,585.01
1.12.09 | 9,571.71
1:10.45 | 9,797.72

Your results will vary, as this is a comparison with 3 classes. The support player might be using different enhancements, be a different level, play differently, etc. However, it should scale with the results here."

I think Harbinger is an amazing class PvE wise in pairs, with another support class. Admittedly it is pretty hard to use, since you need to be juggling your health quite a lot. However, it is not impossible, and the damage payoff is quite good. I personally don't think it needs to be changed too drastically. However, Soul Rend is kind of problematic. Either the hit chance or crit chance (or both) needs to be increased, as missing your nuke is super problematic with this class. Putting yourself at a risk of dying only to have your main attack miss is a pretty big setback, and I think something should be done to minimize that. It would make the class feel a little less clunky than it already (understandably) is.

< Message edited by The Pale Emperor -- 3/4/2018 22:25:14 >

AQW	Post #: 49

3/4/2018 20:19:21

The Fire Eyes
Member

@metakirby
What I meant was am I the only one with the second and third use of Blood Price being the same amount. You said your first and second use were 939 and 1919, what's your third use? I'm not sure why I said that the boosts from Blood Price were insignificant, because they aren't, oh well. And yes, I am using Burning Blade of Abezeth.

Anyway, I agree with Aura knight that its a pain when soul rend misses or doesn't crit, as Soul Rend is the main damage dealer of the class. Having it at least hit, even with a non crit would be great. Rather than with low hp though, maybe it becomes a guarenteed hit with exalted active? I think soul snare is fine, I'd rather have 90% for 10 seconds on a longer cooldown than a smaller percent thats loopable or with a reduced cooldown. IMO what should get a reduced cooldown is Soul Rend, and maybe Soul Leech as well if it doesn't get a slight increase. Soul Leech can't keep up with a cycle of Blood Price. At least Soul Leech should be strong enough to heal back up to where Blood Price can be used for the beginning of a new stack without being used twice. For example, you drop to 100 hp to hit soul rend then heal, you only get around 700-800, and thats not strong enough to be able to survive the 1042 of Blood Price for a new stack. If you make Soul Leech strong enough to heal that, the DPS should go up enough to make the class viable over other classes. If the heal isn't increased, maybe increase the duration of exalted to 12-13 seconds so that Soul Leech can be used twice before the reuse of Blood Price (and soul rend thrice before the exalted fades).

< Message edited by The Fire Eyes -- 3/4/2018 20:21:48 >

Post #: 50

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