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RE: Harbinger Feedback

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Harbinger Feedback
Too strong (post PvE or PvP)
  1% (2)
Too weak (post PvE or PvP)
  14% (15)
Is this class useful to you? YES
  12% (13)
Is this class useful to you? NO
  9% (10)
Is this class fun to use? YES
  17% (18)
Is this class fun to use? NO
  6% (7)
Will this class replace any for you? YES (post which)
  0% (0)
Will this class replace any for you? NO
  18% (19)
Would you rather use another class? YES (post which)
  16% (17)
Would you rather use another class? NO
  1% (2)


Total Votes : 103
(last vote on : 3/7/2018 5:13:14)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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3/4/2018 20:51:27   
Aura Knight
Banned


 I'm beginning to think this class shouldn't have a heal. Instead, what it needs is a way to lower incoming damage so we can remain at low HP to get more power from our soul rend skill. The heal seems out of place. But if we do get a damage reduction, that, paired with the effect of the soul snare skill might be way too good. But it seems weird for a class whose main focus is to get to low HP and do high damage to be given a heal. I appreciate the healing, but it probably does hurt the overall damage the class can do. This class is likely meant more for PvP, but is able to solo as well. If the purpose was mainly PvP, it's fine as is, but if solo was also the intent, it needs a bit of help with that. Damage mitigation effects would be most welcome, but I can also say such things would make the class too strong.

< Message edited by Aura Knight -- 3/4/2018 20:52:32 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 51
3/4/2018 21:00:27   
The Fire Eyes
Member
 

 But with no heal then the decrease to incoming damage would have to be huge and/or soul snare would have to be loopable. Also, you wouldn't be able to use Blood Price at that point for the buffs, because it would just kill you as soon as you used it again.
Post #: 52
3/4/2018 21:03:16   
Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!
quote:

What I meant was am I the only one with the second and third use of Blood Price being the same amount.

I never really go up to 3 stacks, the extra stress is not worth it for the minimal damage increase (assuming you even crit in the first place), unless I am with a support class, in which case the numbers can easily be skewed, but there's no reason for the damage to change beyond the second use. The first use hurts a little bit, but it's manageable, then the 2nd and onwards deals extra damage because of the Blood Price buff (which doesn't stack) and since the skill cannot crit, the extra crit modifier from the Exalted stacks is irrelevant. It works exactly as it should, from the perspective of the game mechanics. It's a feature, not a bug.

I totally agree that having a stacking buff on a skill which deals that much damage to yourself is pretty ridiculous and unnecessary. I bet if the stacking mechanic was never introduced to the class in the first place, the class would have had a better reception. If there was no reason to loop Blood Price in the first place, there would be no need to change the other skills, since the major problem of the class seems to stem from the presumed need for stacking the skill with such a short window. If the Exalted buff lasted for a couple more seconds beyond the Blood Price buff, then it would be way more manageable since you could wait for Blood Price to wear off and then instantly use it again to keep stacking. I feel like this would be the best fix for Blood Price.

quote:

At least Soul Leech should be strong enough to heal back up to where Blood Price can be used for the beginning of a new stack without being used twice. For example, you drop to 100 hp to hit soul rend then heal, you only get around 700-800, and thats not strong enough to be able to survive the 1042 of Blood Price for a new stack.

That's one of the funny quirks of the class, using damage boosting items will actually hinder the performance due to how the damage for Blood Price is Calculated. If you were to not use any damage boosts, then 1 Soul Leech is enough to sustain a fresh of Blood Price and because it has almost half the cooldown, that should easily compensate for the enemy's damage, especially when you can pair it with Soul Snare and get 2-3 "untaxed" Soul Leeches, depending on the timing. It's feasible to stack up Exalted to 4 without damage boosting items, but it's still hard to do if the enemy is doing any amount of reasonable damage, you could probably do it quite consistently on Undead Artix for example, but doing it on something like Onyx Lava Dragon will likely get you killed.
AQW  Post #: 53
3/4/2018 21:09:16   
Aura Knight
Banned
quote:

But with no heal then the decrease to incoming damage would have to be huge and/or soul snare would have to be loopable. Also, you wouldn't be able to use Blood Price at that point for the buffs, because it would just kill you as soon as you used it again.

That's a fair point, but if there is a damage reduction, it would mean the damage done to you from the Blood Price skill would be lower as well. It's just a bit awkward to get the boost from Blood Price, hit Soul Rend, have it miss unfortunately, and then need to heal back up because the monster you fight hits hard. Now, I can admit that this class is not meant to take down everything and perhaps it's my stubbornness to try and do just that which is making me want this to be more solo oriented. For PvP, it's probably fine. I mean, it's got to be if there are players complaining about it from initial release. I'm only brainstorming now. Not like anything I write here will be a confirmed change.

Regarding the Blood Price stacking, it probably isn't worth trying to stack it. The damage boost you get from a single use is good enough to let you deal high damage. With 2 uses, your damage is more or less the same. And this is why I think the stack should be removed. But again, I'm just brainstorming just like the rest of you.

< Message edited by Aura Knight -- 3/4/2018 21:12:52 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 54
3/4/2018 23:26:08   
The Fire Eyes
Member
 

 Actually, if you wanted to remove the need for a heal skill you could technically make the class heal on dodge, and that paired with soul snare would probably heal you enough to stay alive, especially if you change up the 5 skill as you say. I doubt they would, as that would change the whole class mechanic imo, but if we are removing a heal, probably best option for survivability. Maybe have the heal become a damage debuff/damage reduction to enemy.
Post #: 55
3/5/2018 2:32:53   
Apeiron
Member

I think the class is fine as it is, if anything I would say it's too OP since you can crit 10k+, has a 90% (NINETY!!!!!) hit chance debuff and you only require 2k lts to get it:

Soul Breaker: strong auto-attack and high cooldown, this choice for the aa was probably meant to balance the damage the class can dish in pvp. Since most players just stand and auto-attack that ~1 sec of difference can give the opponent an edge.
Soul Rend: damage dealt based on how much hp you have left. The damage this skill can deal is absolutely mad and the cooldown of ~6.5 is more than fair for an attack of such caliber. Yes, it's the main source of damage of the class and it can miss. But seriously, the damage you can do with this skill makes up for it.
Soul Leech: Healing skill. It has a decent heal and it helps in case you want to use your 5th skill again or if you want to survive while you wait for your 4th skill to cooldown.
Soul Snare: An unmissable debuff of 90% hit chance. Let's be real, this skill is just broken. Whether is pve or pvp, a 90% debuff of anything is insane.
Rank 4 passives: You deal and receive 15% more damage. Some people complain about the 'you receive +15% damage' , but in the end, it may help you.
Blood Price: -800~ to -1k~ hp (high levels), + 120% dmg, + 15% chance to crit, +8% crit dmg (last one can stack to 4). This skill is what gives Harbinger so much power, +120% dmg makes all your attacks hit really hard and the health cost has good synergy with the 2nd skill.

Some people nowadays are used to have classes that can hit hard, can heal hard and can debuff/buff hard with no sort of drawback.
Imo that's what makes a class so boring, there's no excitement in being 'god' mode all the time.
I like this class, it's fun and requires a little of 'skill' to use. I just hope this level of damage and debuff doesn't become the norm (at least not with some sort of drawback).

< Message edited by Apeiron -- 3/5/2018 9:07:19 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 56
3/5/2018 2:43:09   
LordDarkex
Member

as soloing class it's....kind of bad? in my experience

if you have a strong support class nearby then you're just hitting 10k crits over and over

between my lightcaster and my harbinger i cant tell which one deals more damage with a support class nearby, so i just use my harbinger for fun
Post #: 57
3/5/2018 5:20:54   
Appocolypse
Member

This is really quite a fun class to use, and I like it a lot. It does however need some tweaks before it can be in the same ballpark as the current "meta", specifically I think the Cooldown times need to be slightly lower. I understand it's supposed to be high risk, high reward but in it's current state the rewards aren't worth it.

Especially when there are classes out there with both better dps and sustainability, without the risk of suicide. I do think that any tinkering needs to be careful as Harbinger can already hit very high, and tweaking it even slightly in the wrong direction will make it overpowered
AQW  Post #: 58
3/5/2018 8:48:21   
Apeiron
Member

^ What's a meta class for you?
This class can already solo some bosses at /bosschallenge and in a party the damage it can reach is close to VHL (endgame class).


A haste boost on this class would make it too powerfull, you have a skill that can deal 10k+ on a single hit and another that makes you almost invincible for 10 seconds.

< Message edited by Apeiron -- 3/5/2018 9:54:45 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 59
3/5/2018 10:01:52   
1997p3
Member

While I kinda want the last skill to be used more easily, I wouldnt want this class to be stupidly strong either, we already have VHL for that
AQ MQ  Post #: 60
3/5/2018 10:37:50   
Doxus the OverLord
Member

I just want something at the level of LightCaster or maybe StoneCrusher, Daimon, etc.
We didn't need a OP class. We already have VHL for it as said above. But, while the Nation has the most powerfull class in game, why not the Legion having something near this level?

Thinking and rethinking again and... over again... after all, this is my final opinion:

The passives should be changed. Instead of having 2 passives for damage dealing and increasing damage received, why not having just 1 passive increasing damage dealed & received? As the other slot for Rank 4 passives, we could have a haste & hit chance buff. As the rank 10 passive, we're ok with +20% END.
About the skillset, it just need the following:
Soul Leech must be inevitable or work the same as LDmK's Soul Siphon. Exactly the same.
About Soul Rend, it could be 100% crit or have less cooldown. Sacrificing own HP to keep it low by using Blood Price and then missing a Soul Rend or not critting it is a really big issue.

That's all.

< Message edited by Doxus the OverLord -- 3/5/2018 10:44:14 >
Post #: 61
3/5/2018 10:45:49   
Luux
Member

I concur with the above statement, just something from the Legion that are on par with other classes like light caster, stonecrusher etc. It would be nice if Exalted Harbinger were at that level.

< Message edited by Luux -- 3/5/2018 10:46:18 >
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 62
3/5/2018 12:46:28   
The Fire Eyes
Member
 

 Well, new changes are coming soon according to Arklen's twitter, so I guess we wait for now.
Post #: 63
3/5/2018 14:14:09   
Aura Knight
Banned


 Hope one change is better range on some skills. At the very least the class could use that.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 64
3/6/2018 20:07:01   
Doxus the OverLord
Member

@above You're right, it would be nice having better range. I completely agree with you.
At the end, a class that work with the enemy souls having to fight'em so close is illogic. A skill like Soul Leech is understandable but things such as Soul Rend and Soul Snare... it looks really strange.
Post #: 65
3/7/2018 7:32:23   
The Fire Eyes
Member
 

 Well, I just saw that Blood Price no longer has an exalted affect (no stacks increasing crit damage), now it just increases damage dealt and chance to crit. The overall damage increase from blood price is now 125% (from 120%) though. I don't know if anything else was changed, but the other skills look untouched in game.
Post #: 66
3/7/2018 8:15:02   
Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!


 The changes haven't rolled out on Yorumi yet and from what I can tell, the only change besides the already stated removal of stacks and higher damage increase is that Blood Price's damage has returned to doing 877 damage instead of the current Yorumi value of 816 (lvl 83 full luck + Awe Enhancement). The 2nd use will hit you a little bit harder than before tough.

It hasn't changed the class viability in any noticeable way, but at least now you wont have to worry about killing yourself trying to get extra crit damage. I would even go as far as calling it a slight buff, but unless you have kept statistics on exact damage numbers, you probably wont notice a difference in the damage. 5% damage extra on top of the already 235% damage done is ~2% increased damage overall. Although you could argue the 8% crit damage increase gives about the same result as the 5% damage increase, that's still only counts on crits + having more non crit damage increases the effectiveness of the already established crit modifier.

I'm happy with this change, they took care of the biggest issue that I had and left the class in essence, the exact same.

< Message edited by Metakirby -- 3/7/2018 8:37:45 >
AQW  Post #: 67
3/7/2018 12:51:28   
Aura Knight
Banned


 Unless it's always been this way and I hadn't noticed before, the range on soul rend seems to be much better. The change to the blood price skill is a nice one. Doesn't matter that the damage to self went back to what it was.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 68
3/7/2018 16:48:47   
Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!


 The range on Soul Rend has the same medium-ish range as it has always had. It's not melee, but it's not ranged enough to reach anything beyond about half of a "normal sized" screen.

The change has also now been rolled out on Yorumi.
AQW  Post #: 69
3/7/2018 18:00:23   
Aura Knight
Banned


 I hadn't noticed that before because whenever I fight I'd be right next to the monster anyway. The change to Blood Price is a nice one. The 4 stacks on the exalted effect was a bit absurd when we could only get maybe 2 or 3 without help. I do wish soul rend could have been given a guaranteed hit and crit when we're at low health. If there's to be no other changes to the class, I suppose it's alright. Harbinger is plenty strong but risky and that's okay. We're not supposed to beat everything with it so maybe we should stop comparing it to classes that are already established as the best.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 70
3/7/2018 18:05:28   
Shadowhunt
Member

There are actually, for whatever reason, four ranges that we can give skills. For sake of simplicity, we will say that they are 1-4, with 1 being the shortest and 4 the longest. We gave some of the skills on Harbinger the 2 range, which is the least common one. But that's been there from the start. So while it is longer than a melee range, it's not as long as a long range attack.

Changes should be rolled to all live servers now. We decided to keep it pretty simple with the changes this time, since the main issue people had seemed to stem from the stacking system we'd put on Blood Price. We did revert the self-damage back to the higher level but also increased the damage buff a tiny bit. You no longer have to worry about stacking though, so the only reason you might loop Blood Price is to keep the auras active, rather than trying to stack. Hopefully this will help reduce the number of issues people seem to have with the self-damage.
AQ AQW  Post #: 71
3/7/2018 22:34:50   
iDreadnaut
Member

Thank you so much. Time to take Dark Harbinger out of the bank.
AQW  Post #: 72
3/8/2018 1:09:23   
Shadowhunt
Member

Thanks to everyone who voted and posted feedback! We're pretty much done making tweaks to the class, so I'll be locking this thread now. I think it was pretty useful, though, so I'll be doing them for subsequent class releases as well. If you wish to continue discussing the class, head on over to the Class Discussion Thread or PvP Discussion Thread to do so.
AQ AQW  Post #: 73
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