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RE: =ED= Blood Mage Balance Thread

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4/24/2019 11:33:15   
.Lord Ginger.


< Message edited by .Lord Ginger. -- 5/20/2020 1:33:35 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 26
6/28/2019 18:55:17   
.Lord Ginger.

Should probably nerf the damage of fireball a tad and remove the defense ignoring for 2 turns feature. It seems fine as it is now.

Maybe a higher dex requirement as well so people can't necessarily get away with 0 dex for this build... like 42 on max.

< Message edited by .Lord Ginger. -- 6/28/2019 20:00:54 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 27
4/7/2020 6:30:21   

Change Energy parasite cooldown to 3. To help combat the automatic game loss against Energy regain and heal/Energy drain then heal/Reroute&Assm heal looping/Static heal loop/etc... Useless in PvP outside of Strength builds. It could also possibly deserve a buff.

Also, Blood Mages previously being the weakest and overall worst class in the game finally got new gear making them just as playable as any other class now. For Pay-to-win users only... Realizing that a class with no armor passives, decent buffs/debuffs, or damage passives(passives that don't exist that increase ALL DAMAGE DEALT) to counter those armor passives(passives that do exist that decrease ALL DAMAGE RECEIVED) needing a buff was a good thing, sure, even if it came a bit late. But hiding it behind a paywall was not a good thing. The Blood Mage class by itself is still suffering, outside of Strength builds. Not a surprise that everyone knew I was correct when I said armor passives were the issue..........
Post #: 28
4/12/2020 3:40:59   

Should swap fireball with plasma cannon on the tech tree for BM. Cause why have a skill that has a requirement of 24* dex on the first 3. 5 points ahead what blood mages start with, come on brother. Can't do max strength builds cause I need 24 dex.
Post #: 29
5/11/2020 18:10:52   

Not nerfing passives armor. It is enough that ch and tlm use field medic in 4 turns. Focus 5 bm is back after this change. Bm must not depend on energy to win. That is our point of unique class.
AQW Epic  Post #: 30
5/11/2020 20:39:56   

It seems this thread has been invaded by a troll who wasted 25k credits switching to the best class so he can farm wins easily and doesn't like being on an even playing field with the other classes. One more malicious EpicDuel forum user who doesn't understand the concept of balance.

"Bm must not depend on energy to win." I lose the majority of my PvP Matches due to lack of Energy Manipulation. Energy Parasite is an auto game loss in PvP, unless you're using Strength. So if you can't explain your reasoning as to why Blood Mages should have the worst form of Energy Manipulation for PvP, I will be reporting you to a Moderator, @Armagedon2018 . You don't understand that you aren't the only person who wants to win their PvP matches. Focus 5 BM is the worst Focus build in the entire game. Blood Mages are still the worst class in the entire game.

A class being "unique" is pointless if playing the class is pointless. A 9 year-old can understand this, but for some reason you can't. Blood Mages are at a more severe disadvantage to all other classes due to their "uniqueness". That's the problem i've been saying all this time. Can you provide a single reason as to why Armor passives shouldn't be nerfed? You have explained absolutely none of your points whatsoever. You have not provided a single, not 1 bit of reasoning for anything that you have said besides, "my op class isn't winning as much as it used to" or "it's harder for me to heal loop and win".
Post #: 31
5/12/2020 6:40:10   

What if Blood Mages had Terrify reworked into reducing resistance and defense instead of Strength?
AQ MQ  Post #: 32
5/12/2020 9:00:52   

"What if Blood Mages had Terrify reworked into reducing resistance and defense instead of Strength?" Yeah, no.

You Celtic Gear Blood Mages are quite sad for asking this on a balance forum. Giving Terrify a % debuff is not the definition of balance. That isn't the purpose of a balance update, that will never happen.

Are you saying Fireball should reduce Strength? Or Terrify should be a % debuff with 20-25% chance to stun? Are you asking for Hunters Mark Skill to be on the Blood Mage class as a permanent Skill? (None of these will ever happen btw). What exactly are you asking for?
Post #: 33
5/12/2020 13:01:46   

I personally donít run Celtic Gear because I have no incentive to spend another $50 on varium when the gear that I invested in is doing well. I was trying to suggest a way to see how Blood Mages can perform better in this tanky build meta. Hereís the more relevant point:

-Would it be fair for Mages receive a stronger Blood Lust (+2% to +5% buff) to compensate for HP cost skills?
-Can Fireballís debuff be raised to 20% debuff?

< Message edited by kittycat -- 5/12/2020 13:02:32 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 34
5/12/2020 21:42:56   

This is something that I can agree with. I was going to ask for 30% Blood lust on my previous thread to combat the 32% Reroute, but if we get the other updates I advised, we might(just might) not need the 5% increase. Fireball debuff increased to 20% is something I can agree with as Blood Mages are still the weakest and overall worst class in the game. But may have to wait until after my suggestions are put through.

However, if they decide to put 30% Blood lust, 20% Fireball, Blood Instinct to Tech Scale, Blood Shield+Instinct cost reduced, and Armor Passives reduced all at the same time, it may be a little too much to handle. I agree with everything you say currently, but either way, the updates should come one at a time. So no class would dont get an unecessary upgrade/downgrade.

Also, yea it's true that Armor Passives are quite broken now. They always have been though. I don't know why i'm the only Epicduel Player who spoke of this before now. Which is why if everything I posted in my other thread is implemented (My take on the balance update (5/8/2020)), the majority of issues might simply go away.

I'm still not 100% sure why people are replying here and not to my seperate thread though. It's more than just a Blood Mage thread.
Post #: 35
5/13/2020 22:17:12   
  Digital X

Beep Beep! ArchKnight AQ / ED

Because this thread is specifically for the discussion of balance surrounding Blood Mages. Your other thread in the general balance section discusses other classes, not just Blood Mage.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 36
5/13/2020 23:31:40   

I do not see tank builds meta right now in 1vs1. Ch and tlm were nerfed with field medic, probably a lot.
AQW Epic  Post #: 37
5/16/2020 5:50:45   

And of course, Tank build Meta is still ruling now. Devs seemed to have irreversibly ruined the game with this last update. Energy Parasite nerfed to complete uselessness. L O L. Why am I not surprised? Return Energy Parasite drain to 25%, and keep it at 3 turn drainage. Clearly there are too many issues added with recent update so i'll keep this short.

Some Blood Mage Skills got slight buff, but I will admit, it is quite sad the devs cant do something intelligent like actually balance the classes or skills once in a while. There is no reason to make Blood Mages as the worst class for PvP, forcing them to buy Celtic Gear to be equal to the other classes. Aprils Fools was last month, So I don't know what to make of this now. Don't tell me that Blood Mages must remain the worst class in the entire game just because the Developers made a huge mistake by releasing Celtic Gear and now all players of that same class have to suffer because of it.

Why did Energy Parasite get nerfed? Why is Energy Parasite's cooldown 4 while Static Charges cooldown is 3? Once again, i'll be asking this question with absolutely no answer in return. Whoever said that a class with an ARMOR PASSIVE and 3 debuffs, needs 3 turn heal looping to survive needs to be fired ASAP. They clearly don't understand the purpose of armor passives. What do you think the classes without Armor Passives or heal loops have to do to survive? What about the classes that can't gain 300 Energy every 3 turns? I personally think the Developers should stop ruining the game and just use a non-Strength(Non-Varium) Blood Mage in 1v1 PvP against every single one of the classes to finally understand what i'm talking about.
Post #: 38
5/16/2020 7:33:37   

@ steroided

They ruined the game now? no offense but as much as I love this game the game has been going down hill for the longest it wasn't just messed up now. Also Energy parasite while it is the most unique of the energy drains sadly as you mentioned the worst energy drainer for PVP. While it is perfect for NPC's especially the bosses anyone with a brain would keep their energy at base and just get rid of their energy to counter this.

two suggestions I can think off to help this.

1) Make it so energy parasite drains off the opponent's raw energy rather than actual energy. This means if your opponent were to have a base of 620 energy the drain would take off of that instead of the actual energy which lets say for example would be 200. This way the drain can't be countered and the BM could get a decent amount of energy. The percents would need to be lowered to keep it from being too OP but it would work a whole lot better than it is now.

2) Scrap energy parasite completely and give BM a static skill that can give them a solid drain/gain like the other energy drainer's/gainers.

Epic  Post #: 39
5/16/2020 10:27:20   

Yea the Omega Phase was the beginning of the sharp decline of Epicduel. I agree BM is really usefull for NPC/Boss and Jugg. It took me a while to figure that out because I was more focused on 1v1 and 2v2 PvPing, where balance issues lie heavily. (Mainly Armor Passives)

I can agree with your first suggestion of Energy Parasite drain. The idea of a Raw % drain being done from their original Energy as you said, could be the solution to the EP PvP problem. I honestly think it could be implemented so BM would have a consistent Energy Manipulation like every single one of the other 5 classes. It would just need appropriate % for drain/steal and some balance over time. Examples: If you could drain 25% of 600 Energy, then consistent Energy drain would be (150), then the EP user would just have to receive 50% of the drain(75) or 50% of whatevers left if they drain someone with less than 150 Energy, or 20% base drain(120) with 75% returned(80), or 15% base drain(90) with 100% return(90). The numbers don't have to be exactly as I put it. And it actually won't as OP as it seems. And i've played against 800 Energy builds often, the old EP just didnt work as good as it should against them. They would all regain their Energy immediately after or while their parasited. This would truely be a usable counter to High Energy builds that aren't NPCs only as the reason why EP exists.

I don't think I can fully support the 2nd idea as of now because of Blood Mages current usefullness against NPC/Boss and Jugg farming. I admit, it's just too good in those modes to completely remove due to it being useless in PvP. Just needs a slight buff or change so its not "I lose the game because i'm not using a Strength build" everytime. Also, I recently thought of my own suggestion as well.

The #1 reason why Blood Mages are lacking in Energy Manipulation is because the Developers are scared that Blood Mage Strength builds will be unstoppable with 25% Drain on 3 turns(Even though the drain itelf is still garbage, and alot of changes have occured to the BM class to prevent that from happening). So perhaps Energy Parasite could improve with Technology? So that BM Strength builds wont get the full 25% drain and will remain at 15% or a possible even 10% if they make scaling matter more to the Skill. Maybe the maximum drain could go up to 30-35% drain for 3 turns in a 100+ Tech build? All other Energy Skill improves with something, so perhaps Blood Mages can join the other classes in the PvP area and not be handed a game lose due to better Energy Steals/Gains at later game state when Energy is lower?

I will admit Celtic Gear/Varium Blood Mage Strength builds don't need a whole lotta Energy Manipulation to win. But the Blood Mage class by itself still does. It's just purely the trolls like Armagedon2018, Lord Ginger, and Foulman who don't fully understand this for some reason, that comment on forums causing Blood Mages to remain the worst class in the entire game for absolutely no reason. They honestly need to be prohibited from commenting on balance section for not understanding this point. They hurt alot more people than they realize when they say "BM don't need Energy to win". I support my idea for Energy Parasite improving with Technology. And the Raw Energy drain, it will just need slight changes.
Post #: 40
5/17/2020 7:03:05   

I do appreciate the Blood Shield change/buff, Which is basically a HP cost Plasma Armor plus Free Tech for 5 turns. Parasite isnít as good anymore, and it can be easily countered. I wish Brutal Strike got buffed to compensate for its loss of the ability to stun. Celtic hunter gear is like one of the few ways a BM can dice through thick resistances/defenses, other than Plasma Cannon and Maelstrom. Blood Mages could use some more help tbh
AQ MQ  Post #: 41
5/18/2020 20:14:09   
.Lord Ginger.

As someone who knows how good the most recent promo is and how the promo itself affects the viability of varium builds (as well as non-varium builds), I can say that any buffs to BM right now in terms of affecting strength builds would only make the promotion version stronger (which I can not support, even though I wish there was a way to make non-promotional builds stronger, which is basically nerfing the promo cores which won't likely happen in a significant enough way).

As for BM as a class for focus, there are reports of the class still being *good* for a few players, even some as focus (but then again, these are with the promotional cores or other cores such as Soul Siphon, and they say it requires a bit more thought out usage).

When trying to get parasite changed, I wish there was a larger return on parasite, reverting it back to the previous version (giving a 1.5x return of the energy stolen, so if you would steal 100 energy you would receive 150 back) was my suggestion, which was not implemented, just the 3 turns at 15% was.

Sad to say it, however the balance changes are mainly due to balance out builds with the most optimal cores, which are widely varium cores, which will inherently leave out non-varium players.

BM is trying to be moved to an low energy class (for whatever reason I'm not really sure), so I doubt they will buff parasite to be an effective drain tool unless it is later proven that Blood Mage focus is actually terrible.

As BM has been for a while, it's been a very strong class with the promotional cores as a Strength or Strength/Support build and it's been a decent focus build as well, I know Mr. Leo put out a video on (focus and another on Strength/Support) on his youtube Channel before the most recent parasite change. These battles are with cores, but that's how ED is nowadays unfortunately, a core-centric game, and it involves a decent amount of money to be able to keep up.

Personally, I'd love a parasite buff, the change to parasite was not what I wish happened in the way it is, but until BM is ruined, I don't think it will be looked at because the class has not been hurting for quite a while now. Heck, there's a new Dex BM build running around as well, the class is extremely versatile.
AQW Epic  Post #: 42
5/19/2020 4:08:12   

I don't think the Developers should listen to Lord Ginger because of the things he has said about Blood Mages.

1) "Blood Mages are not the weakest in terms of stats, every class has the same stats (besides energy if thatís what you mean, but Mercs have less energy)" -- This was before the Blood Shield/Instinct change. When BM had the lowest DEF/RES(including buffs), and Damage (including debuffs), but he still thought it would be funny to say this.

2) "Blood Mages are not the weakest class in the game, your personal experience doesnít provide the truth" -- He said this before Celtic Gear was even created. When BM didn't have a debuff to out Tank builds, or any buff to the class whatsoever and was quite literally unplayable due to their poor skills.

3) "Fireball is not the most useless ability in the game, the CH multi is arguably tied if not more useless" -- Was said before fireball changed to Dex scaling/had no debuff and was lowest scaling weakest attack in the entire game. He is the reason why Fireball remained the worst Skill in the entire game for so long. He is the reason why Blood Mages were unplayable until the Devs started listening to me. And lied about CH multi.

Dex BM builds being used is because the Devs listened to what I had to say about the BM class, but is still unplayable for the most part due to having no support for Dex builds in general. I can only thank the Developers for making the right decision by listening to the player with more Experience and giving Blood Mages some decent changes over these months. Me being 100% solely responsible for Blood Shield change, Blood Instinct, all Dex BM builds that currently exist, and BM Field Medic buff.

He states that i'm 100% correct when I said the Developers(and himself as well) are scared that BM Strength builds will become unstoppable if BM class itself recieves a buff. I actually offered a solution to Celtic Gear/Varium Blood Mage Strength builds not receiving the same amount of EP drain as other builds by having Energy Parasite improving with Technology. I don't know why this point was ignored, but it seems like Energy Parasite improving with Technology could be the only way Blood Mages can currently receive an EP buff of sorts. Which was already my original idea for the balance of both BM Builds and the 6 classes in the first place. Also, regardless of what the Developers thinks about EP improving with Tech is still a buff to Strength BM, as I stated earlier, the drain itself is still garbage and it won't actually make that much of a difference for the BM Strength builds either way. Either way, the Celtic Gear Strength BM with EP for 3 turns improving with Tech wouldn't be as good as Celtic Gear Strength BM when EP drain 25% for 2 turns.

For anyone who likes or dislikes my ideas, you need to say it before the update occurs and not after the update occurs. You don't get to wait until after the update you wanted happens to then say you appreciate it once it's implemented. You have to give support to the idea that you want to be implemented before it's applied for it to actually be implemented. Yes, I have to explain this simply for you guys. The Developers will see what the players actually want and need/don't need and try to help fix it. The Developers need to know whether or not they are making the right decision and is agreed upon by the players with each major Balance update. Example, if you agree that my idea for Armor Passives to be reduced, comment on that thread/post that you agree before it gets implemented. The same thing you're doing now with Energy Parasite. It's not that hard to understand, seriously

Removed unneccesary comments, please do not call out other users in such a manner. -Digital X

< Message edited by Digital X -- 5/24/2020 18:53:27 >
Post #: 43
5/19/2020 5:21:11   
.Lord Ginger.

You do not know what goes on behind the scenes, but thank you for your input.
AQW Epic  Post #: 44
5/19/2020 20:06:49   

I don't think the developers should ignore Ginger and I'm pretty sure he cares about BM. He may not know exactly what's right for BM but neither do you, nor do I, nor does anybody. Personally, I tend to agree with Ginger and I also agree with kittycat's post. I even agree with a few of the points you've made over time. But humble yourself and for the love of God, stop calling other users trolls. None of the three lines you quoted from Ginger strike me as being glaringly incorrect. As an outsider looking in onto these conversations, the way you present your opinions and interpretations of others' is scathingly dogmatic and downright demeaning to other users. Debate me all you want but no, your personal experiences do not provide the truth and no, you do not know what goes on behind the scenes.

Anyways, here's what I wanted to write before I got distracted. It's nothing new, just reinforcing the common sentiment in hopes that something will be done:

Without promos, BM is not good. Parasite needs a buff. But with the promo, BM tends to dominate because the promos disproportionately favor BM which, without a stable energy manipulation system, relies soley on damage to win. This creates instability; historically, BM is either overpowered or underpowered depending on their ability to deal explosive damage in short matches. If the meta and the promos support this, they are great. Otherwise, not.

Recently, this problem has been getting worse because BM has become increasingly reliant on the increasingly powerful promos that disproportionately favor the class. The presence of any single overpowered build supresses the normal interactions of all other classes and build diversity. Other builds simply can't function as they normally would when a single all-powerful build is bottlenecking their win rate. Success becomes, to an uncomfortable extent, dependant on how well one fairs against this all-powerful threat. Unfortunately, in the most recent case, the rise of the overpowered strength BM build was entirely promo-dependant. This sent into motion a ripple effect of balance changes that has set the precedence for a dangerous trend: nerfing and buffing numerous class skills rather than the promo itself in order to normalize the overall win rates of the classes. This actually creates a vicious cycle of increased promo dependance that only furthers polarization of promo and non-promo builds. By nerfing the class instead of the promo, non-promo builds end up playing at a deficit.

To make a long story shorter, the BM class is in a worse state than it was exactly before the Celtic promo was released, whereas the other classes are only better (e.g. TLM, BH). But because the illy-nerfed promo still masks the shortcomings of the class for those who own it, in effect, BM still commands a presence where it definitely should not be, and some other classes remain lackluster when in fact they are already quite potent in comparison to a promo-less BM.

The continued introduction of promos that have an unprecedented impact of balance needs to be avoided and, in my opinion, the only true way to correct turn of events is to nerf the promo more. Skullcracker needs to either be made one time use, lowered by at least 5% damage, or have it's energy cost increased. Only then do I feel that we can properly focus on restoring blatant imbalances that have been eating away at the BM class since the creation of Parasite.
Epic  Post #: 45
5/22/2020 5:32:32   

Celtic Hunter Gear gives Str BM the burst potential that surpasses and replaces the Strength scaling Fireball, and itís definitely why itís been a top performer, especially when combined with Captainís Charge.

Parasite should receive a multiplier of 1.2x or 1.1x For the caster to make it slightly more reliable for energy gain, in my opinion. -> accomplished in this past week's Design Notes!

Should Terrify also regain its ability to remove Rage gain?

< Message edited by kittycat -- 6/8/2020 16:39:17 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 46
5/24/2020 18:56:35   
  Digital X

Beep Beep! ArchKnight AQ / ED

Please remember to respect other users, I have had to delete several comments directed towards specific users, I do not want to see this again. If it does pop up again you can expect a Warning, let's not get there please.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 47
3/14/2021 14:16:52   
Albus dumbledore

BloodMage is a great class indeed but I feel it misses some fixes such as:

1-buffing the blood shield little bit, starting with 17% little better than 15%:

at 100 tech without any extra stats and max level blood shield it gave me only 30 tech and 96 resistance, that is very low really low.

2-Parasite still need to drain more than 18% max, I would say 20% better and and gain more than 135% I would say 140-145% better.

3-brutal strike is just like any other skill with few % damage more, if you add to it at least 10% defense ignores it would be much more effective.

4-make the parasite to deal 100% damage not 85%.

AQW Epic  Post #: 48
3/14/2021 20:49:52   

In response to the previous post:

1. Absolutely agreed. Blood Shield is criminally underused. Honestly, the real problem with the skill is not the strength of the effect, but the mechanics of the skill itself. The problem is that you're not only spending a turn giving yourself a buff (and not even an offensive one for the most part), you actually lose HP in doing so; given BM's general squishiness, this is a problem. If possible, I think the best approach would be to make a very strong effect on the first turn, which then diminishes significantly over the course of the 5-turn duration (e.g. 100% of listed effect, 70%, 50%, 30%, 15%). If this can't be done, then the effect needs to be buffed, probably to 25% at level 1 and up to 50% at max level.

2 & 4. Parasite is tricky to balance, since the amount you drain/gain varies wildly depending on the state of the battle, unlike other energy gain skills. I think the current energy gain and energy drain values are okay, but I do agree that it should deal 100% damage.

3. Brutal Strike is definitely underpowered at the moment, especially with respect to other skills like it. Double Strike, Bludgeon, and Neural Scythe all have higher percentages than Brutal Strike; Double Strike and Neural Scythe both cost less energy and Bludgeon costs the same; and while Double Strike has no additional effects, Bludgeon has an extra crit chance and Neural Scythe drains energy. Brutal Strike either needs an energy cost debuff, an additional effect (e.g. defense ignore, extra crit chance, Rage gain/steal, etc.), or both.
Epic  Post #: 49
5/1/2021 10:21:13   

Blood mage needs a nerf: Blood instinct should improve with skill level as blood shield does. Fireball increases with dexterity and when blood Instinct increases with support, people run blood instinct with 100+ support then they have 100+ dexterity and support for the majority of the match, and with zero energy cost and only 90 health reduction, it makes it really easy.
Post #: 50
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