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8/25/2019 17:24:20   
Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!


quote:

I feel like the Dark/Heavy Metal Necromancer could use more mana regen, in order to keep the rhythm going.

Maybe have it so that using Sacrificial Pact gives like 20 points of mana?

Dark/Heavy Metal Necro will only have mana issues if you force it upon the class by using Shattering Sanity (3) and Dealthy Roar (4) too much. The damage from Shattering Sanity is not worth it until you drop a couple thousand HP, which you will almost always heal back to full after dishing out your large hits. The damage from Deathly Roar is also minimal, and only needs to be used within 10 second of eachother to refresh the buffs, which is almost 3 times the length of the cooldown, post haste. It's more important to use your Riffs (2) and Pacts (5) to make sure you manage your HP while keeping your stacks of Cursed Echo going than camping the cooldowns of 3 and 4. 3 is definitely the main damage dealer while at low HP, in which case it's of higher priority.

You just need to manage a couple timers in your head, the most worrisome of which is the interaction between 2 and 5, making sure you let Dark Pact fade at the right moments, but without losing Cursed Echo and/or having Forgone Conclusion heal you too early to get your damage in.

It does have a rhythm, that rhythm just requires some manual counting of seconds in your head for the class to work at it's best.

quote:

On that note, what ever happened to the farming discussion thread?

Lost to time due to the forum's extreme inactivity as of late, unless a mod bumps the thread back or makes a new one.

< Message edited by Metakirby -- 8/25/2019 17:59:26 >
AQW  Post #: 451
8/26/2019 14:24:03   
HORRIOR
Member

quote:

Dark/Heavy Metal Necro will only have mana issues if you force it upon the class by using Shattering Sanity (3) and Dealthy Roar (4) too much. The damage from Shattering Sanity is not worth it until you drop a couple thousand HP, which you will almost always heal back to full after dishing out your large hits. The damage from Deathly Roar is also minimal, and only needs to be used within 10 second of eachother to refresh the buffs, which is almost 3 times the length of the cooldown, post haste. It's more important to use your Riffs (2) and Pacts (5) to make sure you manage your HP while keeping your stacks of Cursed Echo going than camping the cooldowns of 3 and 4. 3 is definitely the main damage dealer while at low HP, in which case it's of higher priority.

You just need to manage a couple timers in your head, the most worrisome of which is the interaction between 2 and 5, making sure you let Dark Pact fade at the right moments, but without losing Cursed Echo and/or having Forgone Conclusion heal you too early to get your damage in.

It does have a rhythm, that rhythm just requires some manual counting of seconds in your head for the class to work at it's best.


Using the 3 and 4 IS necessary because of the 25% haste buff from 4, which can only be achieved if 3 is used after 5. This is the only way to keep the 100% damage buff from 2 and 5 (x3) going.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 452
8/26/2019 17:32:36   
Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!


It is necessary use them a lot, but not to use them 24/7. 10 seconds isn't really all that long in the grand scheme of things, but it's generally long enough for you to skip out on using at least 4, every second Pact cycle or so. Insanity also lasts 40 seconds, the buff which allows you to activate the haste, so you will basically never run into an issue there.
It's important to give the class a couple seconds here and there to just auto once or twice, which will happen if you try to fade Dark Pact a lot, as you would naturally delay your use of Rotting Rift to line up with Dark Pact's fade.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about.
I am not claiming that I was playing the class perfectly, there was a couple things that could be improved to maximize the DPS (which I tend to fail at a fair bit still), but mana was a total non issue throughout the whole fight. The only real difference in harder hitting fight is that you would likely be using Sacrificial Pact slighty less and let Forgone Conclusion heal you more often, which means you actually use up less mana as you are waiting for Forgone to do it's thing more frequently.

quote:

This is the only way to keep the 100% damage buff from 2 and 5 (x3) going.

It's actually a total of 145% damage increase, as Cursed Echo gives an increased 75% Physical damage output, and Reverberating + your passive is 40% extra damage from all sources. 1.75 x 1.40 = 2.45 times damage. Although without Reverberating active, it's only 2.0125 times damage, which you should be able to keep Reverb active most of the fight.

< Message edited by Metakirby -- 8/26/2019 17:35:51 >
AQW  Post #: 453
8/27/2019 15:22:03   
Dante Redorigin
Member

Anyone playing Dark/Heavy Metal Necro having issues with Foregone Conclusion on Rotting Riff then? Cause even before I got it skilled up to 5 there are times its just refusing to proc the heal, even when the skill is cooled down again. I've died even to weaker enemies cause half the time it just decides not to heal me even when I'm hasted and hitting with heavy crits. Even avoided using Sacrificial Pact once I had it to make sure I wasn't negating the heal by accident, but yeah, its just deciding not to work half the time for me.

< Message edited by Dante Redorigin -- 8/27/2019 15:28:04 >
Post #: 454
8/27/2019 16:41:53   
Hardcastle McCormick
Member

quote:

Lost to time due to the forum's extreme inactivity as of late

The funny thing about that is that it feels like the reddit community has been growing lately. That seems to be most players' goto for questions/discussions about the game... as toxic as it can be.


But anyway, regarding my (short) list of Abyssal Angel positives vs Vampire Lord, I still think there's a SLIGHT case to be made for AbA being less involved to use since the abilities have longer cooldowns and you only end up using 2 of them half the time, as opposed to all 4 with VL.
That's a very minor positive, but stuff like that adds up when you're farming for hours IMO...
On the other hand it's less comfortable since so many of AbA's abilities cause the player to select themselves, which is definitely problematic, but that becomes less and less of an issue the higher the HP of your opponents.

< Message edited by Hardcastle McCormick -- 8/27/2019 16:44:32 >
AQW  Post #: 455
8/27/2019 17:55:54   
Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!


quote:

Anyone playing Dark/Heavy Metal Necro having issues with Foregone Conclusion on Rotting Riff then? Cause even before I got it skilled up to 5 there are times its just refusing to proc the heal, even when the skill is cooled down again. I've died even to weaker enemies cause half the time it just decides not to heal me even when I'm hasted and hitting with heavy crits. Even avoided using Sacrificial Pact once I had it to make sure I wasn't negating the heal by accident, but yeah, its just deciding not to work half the time for me.

The effect "Forgone Conclusion" needs to fade in order for the heal to trigger, if you loop it, you wont heal after the 6 seconds has passed, as you looped the effect itself and not letting it fade to do it's thing. If you spam 2 all the time, with or without haste (although without the haste buff, your ability to loop it is more or less just based on luck) you wont ever get the heal off. This is how Forgone Conclusion has always worked, it has just never really been thought of to be practical to loop (nor possible without external haste buffs) before Dark/Heavy Metal Necro appeared.

Another thing to note about Forgone Conclusion is that it's 25% of your base damage that is used to calculate the heal amount, so even if you do a 10k crit, let's say, that's only ~3k base damage, of which only 25% (or ~750) becomes healing. This can sometimes be deceptive, because you look at those 5 digit crits and think it's gonna be tons of healing, but in reality the damage that gets calculated is a little over 3 times less than the crit. This is a rather common scenario if you don't loop Forgone Conclusion, because even if you got 2 super high nukes off within those 6 seconds and an maybe a Spiral Carve (plus whatever auto attacks and other skill uses, even Pact itself), it should in theory only barely heal you to full from a couple hundred, if even that.

I have not experienced this "issue" before and I mostly have the opposite problem, that I accidentally wait a second too long and heal even though I was barely at half HP. It works TOO well, to it's own detriment at times.

quote:

The funny thing about that is that it feels like the reddit community has been growing lately. That seems to be most players' goto for questions/discussions about the game... as toxic as it can be.

I don't really follow what happens on Reddit, but AE got Discord servers running for community chat which are always active, even if that activity is just people talking about random stuff from time to time.

< Message edited by Metakirby -- 8/27/2019 18:06:38 >
AQW  Post #: 456
8/29/2019 14:18:27   
Hardcastle McCormick
Member

Well I just found out about the Lycan buff. Once again, SEVERAL years after I was ready for it, but I'll take anything I can get.
How good do people consider Lycan as a class now? From my tests it doesn't seem to have top-tier DPS, but its damage is at least twice as much as before...

Finally got Dark Metal Necro all ranked up. The DPS is really insane considering how relatively little time it takes to get the class! Seriously it's hitting VHL numbers for me...

< Message edited by Hardcastle McCormick -- 8/29/2019 14:55:37 >
AQW  Post #: 457
8/29/2019 15:24:28   
Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!


Lycan is a solid early/mid game soloing class with some nice debuffs, especially the defense reduction from combo'ing 5 into 4. It's nothing special late game when you already got 1 very strong class like LDK or GB (or even better), but it's easily high B tier, leaning into A tier in terms of soloing (defensively and offensively) and apparently a force to be reckoned with in PvP based on what I have heard, which seems about right if you get long stuns off. It's also not seasonal unlike LDK and GB. It's arguably one of the best, if not the best non seasonal, non paid, non endgame soloing class you can get.

Dark Metal Necro is only slightly lower DPS wise than VHL is, taking like 10 or so seconds more to solo a 200k HP boss. Even with the upkeep and attention needed for the class to reach this point is far beyond most meta classes, it taking easily 10-15 times less time to get than VHL and almost matching it in terms of raw DPS is quite amazing and a lot more consistent than most classes could only ever dream of being with it's built in dodge debuff.

< Message edited by Metakirby -- 8/29/2019 16:07:59 >
AQW  Post #: 458
8/30/2019 19:53:08   
Hardcastle McCormick
Member

I will say there's a more significant difference between VHL and DMK against lower hp monsters and bosses. DMK always has "startup phase" where you have to apply all the buffs and then start getting your health low, whereas VHL only has the initial lower damage nuke, and from that point on it's at the max possible DPS it can reach.


I haven't tested DMK with SC support yet. I feel like SC's healing wouldn't necessarily make it impossible to get your health low enough to do max damage, however if SC's magnitude resistance buff also lowers your self-damage, that might make it tricky.

It probably wouldn't be as good as good as VHL in group fights, since VHL gets a massive amount of damage from other class's resistance debuffs due to the way its self buffs work. But the fact that it's is even in the ballpark of stuff like VHL or LC for damage as a free class makes it very worthwhile. It certainly beats Glacial Berserker, the next most free(and seasonal) dps class.
AQW  Post #: 459
9/1/2019 22:43:29   
Sniper Joe
Member

Don't know if this goes here but considering that the Q&A section seems a little abandoned I'll ask it here anyway.
Is there a convenient method to farm for the Dark Metal Necro class?
I have the 200 Dark Metal Ore, it's the needing 600 of the other items that feels like it'll be a boring chore to do that I'm not looking forward to doing.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Post #: 460
9/3/2019 5:24:31   
thepowersthatbe
Member

In order to get the Dark Metal Necro class, you're going to need:

600 Bronze
600 Silver
600 Gold
600 Platinum
200 Dark Metal Ore

Note: The cap for all of the stacks is 500, so you're going to have to turn in 100 (102 to be exact) of everything in the Arena Coin Merge except Dark Metal Ore at some point while farming.

Step 1. Farm 500 Bronze and 500 Silver from the chest in /join kornconcert in the middle room. I suggest using an AOE class. (You'll also get some Gold and Platinum.) If you already have 34 Metal Badges, go to Step 2. If you don't have 34 Metal Badges, merge Bronze and Silver until you have 34 Metal Badges, then repeat this step.
Step 2. Farm 500 Gold in any of the other middle rooms from the mini bosses. (You should have some amount of Gold already.)
Step 3. Farm 500 Platinum in /join kornthrash from the boss. (You should have some amount of Platinum already.) If you already have 34 Rock Tokens, go to Step 4. If you don't have 34 Rock Tokens, merge Gold and Platinum until you have 34 Rock Tokens, then go back to Step 2.
Step 4. Farm 200 Dark Metal Ore from the monsters in /join korntoxic in the right room.

You should now have:

500 Bronze
500 Silver
500 Gold
500 Platinum
200 Dark Metal Ore
34 Metal Badges
34 Rock Tokens

Step 5. Merge Bronze and Silver into 200 Metal Badges, and Gold and Platinum into 200 Rock Tokens in the Arena Coin Merge. (You will have 2 Bronze, Silver, Gold and Platinum left over.)
Then, with the 200 Dark Metal Ore, the Dark Metal Necro class from the Event Merge Shop will be yours.

Tip: When you rank the class up to 5, un-equip and re-equip the class to get the endurance passive. Oh, and Lucky Enhancements. 2534 253 254 25 23 3 4

< Message edited by thepowersthatbe -- 9/14/2019 15:05:31 >
AQW  Post #: 461
9/25/2019 1:26:09   
Edme MacHeath
Member

Is legion revenant still better at farming than shaman? If so by how much?

Shaman's DPS felt so absurdly ahead of everything else that it felt like almost a mistake to use anything but shaman, with the exception of perhaps Daimon at peak potential with some absurd RNG involved.

Even going down to VL and Abyssal seems... slow compared to shaman... I really be interested in LR if it's that much better...

< Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 9/25/2019 1:28:51 >
AQ  Post #: 462
9/26/2019 15:35:27   
Aggreron
Member

Well I got LR just recently, and if you are talking about pure damage wise, I did some rough calculations excluding awe enh but with BBoA and LR is like 10-20% stronger than shaman
Though, for me the major selling point of LR is the aoe ranged auto and mage regen, which means it basically never runs out of mana even with its high mana costs
There's also the fact that it has a guaranteed crit first skill and easily reaches 60+ or even 70+ crit chance when looping spiral carve
It has shaman's damage + blazebinder's consistency and can even support or solo, basically a jack of all trades and master of ... a lotta stuff
AQW  Post #: 463
9/28/2019 11:40:05   
Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!


LR is better than Shaman in most metrics (low HP, mid, high, screen swapping, room hopping etc.) and while it's damage output seems inconsistent against the main and secondary targets, it still performs exceptionally well. Even with just using 4,2 and auto attacks you can get some pretty good clear speeds by the mix of AoE auto attacks (which also means Spiral Carve abuse to the max), instacrit on 2 and the DoT that starts at ~700 if you apply Depravity beforehand and before any Infinita Noxes are applied, granted that will only really matter on mid-high hp mobs and bosses. Even though there are certain specific situations where you can run into "cannot use skills off cooldown due to mana" syndrome if you keep killing stuff with 5, it rarely ever happens and will only happen if you have a little bit too much downtime between the mobs. For example if you run from one end of a screen to another and your target amounts are 2 or less, but as long as you auto attack frequently, this should never bother you for much more than a couple seconds maybe once or twice in hours worth of farming.

Basically, just with using half it's kit, you can get clear speeds matching mid-high end AoE classes and once we add the latter half of the kit, you surpass pretty much any other class in most situations and it's never inconvenient to use, unlike some other classes, although MoM and LR are supposedly neck in neck for the title of "best farming class".

I will have to disagree that Shaman was above all else, even before LR happened. It could just be my bias, but Shaman feels inconvenient to use despite only needing 2 buttons to function optimally. Trouble operating at maximum capacity due to gassing mana, low crit rate which leads to generally 1 target staying alive with too much HP, making you lose more mana if you try to deal with it. It may just be because I'm used to VL and now LR as my main AoE classes, but compared to those, Shaman swings too heavily and is either good, or "so so". More often than not the latter. If an AoE class feels too inconvenient to use, it doesn't feel worth using over something that can get as good results, but with more consistency/convenience, even if it the inconvenient choice offers a (technically) slight statistical advantage.

< Message edited by Metakirby -- 9/28/2019 11:58:13 >
AQW  Post #: 464
10/1/2019 22:02:35   
Edme MacHeath
Member

There's nothing slight about the difference between shaman and VL.

Shaman is just on a different level. I'd honestly say LR and Shaman are in a tier of their own.
.
Shaman isn't this inconsistent class. It has 100% hit chance naturally at lvl 90. And while it's possible for it's skills to miss or be dodged, it doesn't happen often.

VL can reach 150ish with it's 50% buff but that only helps it so much over a class that already has 100% hit chance (Yes it does help it over but not as much as one might think)

VL can reach way way over 100% crit chance but it can't actually maintain it forever, about 65% of the time, making it's true crit chance lower than 100% by abit. It has basically 0% while aspect is offline.
So this might seem consistent on the surface having complete or almost no crit chance all the time but it hurts consistency because the class functions like an off/on switch.

Shaman has the worse mana model, I agree. It has to have 25 mana every 3-4 seconds and it doesn't always have it, it gains about 18 from being hit every 4 seconds except when you dodge, which does happen abit and 10-18 more from autoattacking so yes it doesn't always get there and takes mana management.


But I don't think shaman's inconsistency ever really makes it perform notably worse than VL, even at some of shaman's worst it seems to do better than VL but theres way more factors going into results than just raw DPS when it comes to farming so I'm sure a handcrafted situation could make any meta farming class look good. There are situations where BB basically beats everything. as it's easy to oneshot under 1k HP enemies by cycling through rooms using 1st skill and it's nuke, especially when crit and hit mean nothing to BB.

An example is any room that can have all it's mobs killed by multiple classes before moving to the next room means they all more or less do the same results, perhaps even differing by a single or couple seconds, which would be in the realm of a mistake in testing.

If VL gave shaman level results then I would switch to it immediately because it would be a better version of shaman at that point due to having equal or greater DPS ONTOP of having better healing and mana regeneration.

< Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 10/1/2019 22:05:37 >
AQ  Post #: 465
10/2/2019 10:28:52   
Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!


The difference most certainly is slight, even in a place like Shadow Realm, which hosts high HP targets that is Shaman forte I would assume. I decided to do some tests there to see how the 5 classes in question, VL, Shaman, LR and AA and BB compares to one another. I always aimed to sit as close to the screen transition between the middle and right screen to switch over as soon as possible.

So the guidelines:
1. 1 Minute of killing (you could extent the test to 2-3 minutes, but I doubt it would change the results drastically)
2. Must kill at least 3 mobs before moving to the other screen.
3. Each time 3 mobs were killed on a single screen, it counts as a "wave" or 1 point.
4. Static weapon, no boosts, Spiral Carve. I know full well it gives an advantage to VL, AA and LR, but it's gonna be used anyways and the test was not statistical to the point where a stray Spiral Carve would skewer the results heavily in one direction.

VL (Luck), AA (Luck) and Shaman (Wiz) were pretty much neck in neck, always either having just finished their 6th wave, or was just a couple seconds off and because it generally took all 3 classes ~10 seconds per wave, of course with some slight variation, especially on Shaman, the next set of mobs were almost always spawned. Shaman got slightly more un-spawned mobs (although I expect it's because it typically killed the mobs with larger gaps in between) than AA and VL, but all 3 almost always had the next wave of mobs ready or at most 2 seconds off by the time they were done with the previous. This also meant that the 4rd mob could sometimes be used to mitigate the impact of a slow spawner as well. Neither ever performed to a degree of losing more than ~5 seconds to one another.

LR was superior, typically almost being done with the 7th wave by the time the minute was up. It suffered the most from un-spawned mobs as well, so it's full potential wasn't even reached.

BB more or less just got done by the 5th wave and barely begun on the 6th every time.

It's by no means a perfect testing method, there's no one true way to compare farming classes to each other that doesn't give at least one class some unfair advantage, or remove the human input (and sometimes bias) in the results. I don't use Shaman often nowadays, and I honestly get surprised how strong it is every time I do use it, although saying it's in a tier of it's own is just silly when the difference between it and the generally considered 2-3 next best choices can get results within just a small margin of inefficiency, like 5%. But then again, LR is really not much more than 10% better than the general farming meta of classes anyways, so that technically shouldn't almost even be in that tier either by that logic, but it also has no downside compared to almost all the other meta farming classes which usually has 1 or 2 things about them that keeps them in check, long cooldowns, killing stuff with skills and lose important buffs, slightly impractical burst damage, non Mage Regen etc.

Shaman doesn't perform to the point of being objectively better than some other AoE classes of choice where it would warrant a tier jump, HOWEVER, a good case to be made for Shaman is that it's available all year around, compared to VL which is seasonal, AA which is seasonal AND AC only, LR which is one hell of a grind and MoM which is a 100$+ investment. This leaves you with fairly limited options for classes to reach or get close to Shaman's potential, the only ones I can think of at the top of my head being BB, Scarlet, Diamon and perhaps LC, outside of highly situational ones like FB and Paladin, but again we are running into issues of availability. Member classes, AC, dailies (or AC cheese), high level requirements. So in that sense, Shaman has a huge advantage in having fairly low requirements and not being seasonal, for how high up the ranks it is.

Now if you plan to just sit in a full room with 6 people for the best spawn timers, you could make various arguments for and against each class, but that's a whole different topic of it's own. since the class choice matters less and less as long as you have a good way of tagging mobs stuff consistently. Or in the case of 4+ mob rooms, you could make arguments for other classes, but there's only really 6 places where people actually have a reason to go and farm that I can think of where that is relevant. Shadowrealm, Nightmare, Icestormarena, Necrodungeon's 5 Headed Dracolich, 2 screens in Dreadrock and that 1 screen if Evilwarnul, 2 of which is just for XP/CP primarily and one of which is not used all that often now with Legionarena being a thing, plus the fact that Frostval Barbarian will just crush anyone entering it's domain of mobs in the 1k range.

quote:

VL can reach way way over 100% crit chance but it can't actually maintain it forever, about 65% of the time, making it's true crit chance lower than 100% by abit. It has basically 0% while aspect is offline.
So this might seem consistent on the surface having complete or almost no crit chance all the time but it hurts consistency because the class functions like an off/on switch.

It's still consistency in the end, whether it's consistent crits, or no crits, the former obviously being preferred. 15 seconds of what is almost equal to Shaman's peek and ~10 seconds of solid, sustainable damage, most of it thanks to the DoT from Ghoul Gouge. It's non aspect AoE damage even with Luck is still nothing to scuff at, and it's just enough to where it doesn't fall too much behind Shaman until it can get Aspect online again.

< Message edited by Metakirby -- 10/2/2019 10:29:53 >
AQW  Post #: 466
10/2/2019 19:12:24   
Edme MacHeath
Member

Towerofdoom4 with 30% boost and spiral carve awe lvl 90 enh

Shaman 1:19 1:21 1:28


VL: 1:31 1:34 1:30


Seems about as much as I had thought to be honest. So yeah I'm still not convinced VL is on shaman's level. I can see where shaman seems inconsistent but it doesn't seem to really go inconsistent enough to fall to VL's level most of the time.
I'm sure I could eventually reach that point through numerous testing and that's kinda the nature of any class that actually has to care about crit chance, I could do a billion of runs and probably eventually do worse than a mid tier farming class as eventually I'd have to run into a run where I would crit only once or a few times, as mathematics go.. Still that's not the greatest argument to say shaman is worse than VL. 70-80% of the time shaman seems to do better.

Shaman may not be 3x the speed of VL but it's pretty much the better choice in terms of speed. However I still think VL is viable which is fine, there are situations where I'm sure VL could do just as good or possibly slightly better than shaman. There are situations where BB does better than both after all. but more often than not I'll stick with shaman. It's just too good to pass up as I know how to manage the class.

If you wanna hide behind the consistency argument and the various variables of farming and how different metrics of testing provide different insight then fine..
I won't disagree that a class can be the best in every possible scenario that's not really true of single target or multi target. Some classes just do better in certain situations than others.

< Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 10/2/2019 19:15:26 >
AQ  Post #: 467
10/2/2019 20:58:42   
Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!


Towerofdoom4, same enhancements and boosts (I assume you used Luck on Vamp), timer started from the first skill use/auto attack to when the boss screen is reached.

VL: 1:15, 1:16, 1:08, 1:13, 1:12

Shaman: 1:22, 1:36, 1:16, 1:31, 1:29

Shaman seems about right based on your results, albeit I could probably improve my play, somehow, Vampire Lord however is a different story here. I can only assume you did something like "kill everything before moving" or "just move to the middle of the screen", which is what loses you so much time on Vampire Lord, by not abusing one of it's advantages to the fullest, it's ranged, spammable auto attack. The latter 2 times on Shaman was me trying to do the same thing as I do with Vampire Lord, moving to the end of the screen before having killed everything, but more often that not, I would either lose a couple seconds on not being able to re-target stuff with Flame or Hydrophobia for some reason, or lose time because I had to follow where the enemies go and that is typically not where you want them to be.

Different people, different methods, but with me doing my best with Shaman, I could just barely scrape the worst of VL times and rarely ever because of mana, or the mana problem happened only at the very end of runs.

Vampire Lord requires more APM, no doubt, and Shaman is a lot less stressful in that regard, but my optimized VL (for this particular instance) vs both your optimized Shaman and my "so so" Shaman still came out on top, which just proves that no one is truly right. Everything we say is nothing but subjective opinions based on self found evidence, which points in vastly different directions.
AQW  Post #: 468
10/2/2019 21:20:06   
Edme MacHeath
Member

I actually abused the ranged auto heavily and that's one of the things I noticed immediately that was advantageous.
I could actually stay at the end of the end and slightly click right and move immediately to the next room after I was finished and I could still do that with shaman but i'd miss a few autos reaching that position because shaman lacked the ability of ranged autos.
Also I really abused the fact of VL being able to boost it's damage by 30% and have it's hit chance buffed by 50%. As most people seem to not know they can apply 30% damage right before activating aspect and then have boosted damage while aspect is active, which slightly negates the 50% less damage done during aspect of the bat.

To be fair I also really don't know if It's optimal to try to rush to the rightest part of the screen with shaman or try to get in a few weak autos vs a single target and then move.
I also admit I did shaman not optimal at all, I actually used raw skill 2s alot instead of applying 1 but it was only to finish enemies off and I didn't really get blown up for it.
I did use the luck spiral carve for shaman too. But I don't think using full wizard would've made me do any slower.

If I really wanted to optimalize shaman I could've done way better but the point was to show that even shaman's inconsistency doesn't put it lower than VL and the fact I did so much worse with shaman than VL in terms of optimal usage probably enforces that even harder.

Perhaps you just got really lucky with awe procs and really unlucky with shaman. I'm honestly a little doubtful of those results being legit.

< Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 10/2/2019 21:49:09 >
AQ  Post #: 469
10/3/2019 3:58:12   
Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!


Vampire Lord:
Test 1, 1:25
Test 2, 1:15
test 3, 1:16
Test 4, 1:21
Test 5, 1:28

Shaman:
Test 1, 1:30
Test 2, 1:24
Test 3, 1:16
Test 4, 1:13
test 5, 1:27

Note that the timestamps just denotes the video length, you should subtract maybe ~1-2 seconds of each of these times, but it doesn't change the comparable clear speed between the 2. I did get some slightly better times with Shaman which might have to do with how I went about the transitions and notably worse times with Vamp Lord today, but overall they are still pretty much equal, no one really pulling ahead of the other too much. It's still a rather small sample size, but Shaman still seems to stands equal to Vamp Lord and perhaps marginally better if you could negate some of Vamp Lord's advantages and focus more on raw DPS rather than execution of non combat related activities, but unless Shaman decides to show it's supposed superiority to me, I have no reason to believe Shaman is going to average a higher and meaningful time advantage over Vamp Lord.

Such small scale sample tests should in theory even benefit Shaman's perceived performance as you don't, if ever deal with the extended play's mana loss over time, always starting off with mana and therefore max burst potential from the get-go all the time. Imagine Shaman's times if you didn't rest in between runs, it would likely lose you several seconds after just a couple, if not a single run-through. It's a small detail that should be noted for general play. As you said yourself, raw DPS is not everything, and that's what Shaman does well, while it still has the mana to upkeep the use of Flame and Hydrophobia constantly.

< Message edited by Metakirby -- 10/3/2019 4:22:54 >
AQW  Post #: 470
10/8/2019 22:02:07   
you stop
Member

By my older lvl 85 enh tests with same 30% boost + spiral carve, Shaman came out on top. I have scrapped those results as theyre already outdated but VL came nowhere near Shaman in all the tod rooms I tested.

*"Near" here means negligible enough to put them in the same tier.

What I find to be limiting in /tod runs is respawn timers. Sitting in one room pressing buttons as opposed to running across rooms (which slightly skips some respawn time) are two different scenarios. On the latter case Shaman's got clear advantage. On the other, VL's consistency comes out on top.

This is why I think it's best to just put them in the same tier. They're both arguably significantly better than majority of the other farming classes. In this tier I speak of, I also have BB and AA in it as well. LR is just on a whole level of its own, perhaps sitting with MoM if not just directly under it.

Arguably so, I'd straight point to Shaman as a farming class, as on a personal case, I do not find mana an issue in any other case except wherein one mob is left out due to not critting repeatedly as well as spells being dodged. But that is a rarity in itself.

Edit: Just watched the tests and I found one crucial flaw to metakirby's usage of shaman. Dont press 2-3 as soon as theyre up. Spacing them actually produces so much better results for some reason.

< Message edited by you stop -- 10/9/2019 22:23:48 >
AQW  Post #: 471
10/9/2019 18:47:35   
ChaosRipjaw
How We Roll Winner
Jun15


quote:

Edit: Just watched the tests and I found one crucial flaw to metakirby's usage of shaman. Dont press 2-3 as soon as theyre up. Spacing them actually produces so much better results for some reason.


That's because of Shaman's warrior mana regen model. If you space out your spell usages, your hitting/being hit replenishes just enough mana for you to use another one, so that the net loss doesn't drain you totally.

IIRC, this was a horrible pain back in the days before Shaman had a powerup and the added heal over time, since it didn't do any damage when it was able to cast spells, and couldn't heal itself after taking damage.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 472
10/9/2019 22:22:50   
you stop
Member

quote:

That's because of Shaman's warrior mana regen model

Im mostly on about this test specifically. In a normal /tod run, spamming 2-3 is totally fine. You'd run out of mana by the end of it but that's okay. But the funny thing is, spacing them produces a better timer, and not just better mana.
AQW  Post #: 473
10/11/2019 15:56:07   
Edme MacHeath
Member

quote:

By my older lvl 85 enh tests with same 30% boost + spiral carve, Shaman came out on top. I have scrapped those results as theyre already outdated but VL came nowhere near Shaman in all the tod rooms I tested.

As someone who has access to both 30% and 50% boosts and awe, I still haven't gotten VL to be better or equal to shaman even at lvl 90 in ToD runs on average. sometimes I get a bad single run that does perform worse than VL but thats only once ever 4 or more runs usually.

quote:

In this tier I speak of, I also have BB and AA in it as well. LR is just on a whole level of its own, perhaps sitting with MoM if not just directly under it.


MoM as in master of moglins? Is that class much better at lvl 90? I thought it was worse than LR, VL and Shaman... Although I don't own it because of the price tag... I've really never gotten consistent opinions about that class. Some say it's the best in the game while others say it's like only among the best.

Sometimes honestly I find Abyssal hard to pinpoint. I overall think it's worse than VL and Shaman in terms of damage but honestly not by that much. There's reasons to use it over VL atleast IMO.

I think it can sorta get blurry when talking about the best 4-5 farming classes as in alot of situations alot of them are within margin of error/consistency range of eachother.
Which means that 5-10% or possibly less depending on the timings, mean you can honestly chock that up to margin of error or a consistency range.
Although some classes kinda ignore consistency to a great deal if not absolutely..

Some situations really do have classes noticeably faster than another though. There are times when shaman absolutely dunks on the next best classes..



As for Blazebinder... It's definitely in the lower end of that tier but it's also the most consistent and excells in dealing the same exact damage pretty much always which allows it to kill certain mobs in one hit repeatedly or line up consistent kills to have respawns be pretty equal.
But I think there's alot of situations where daimon and shadowstalker/walker of time really outperform it in terms of raw dps. So if anything maybe those classes could be argued to be in that tier too...

But I also still think shadowstalker/shadowwalker of time is potentially still obsolete as a farming class. it's a class that can honestly be anywhere to roughly 10% slower than BB to almost VL level speeds. Which is a really unreliable range to have especially since that range relies on mob HP amounts.
I still don't like using it over BB or VL anyways since those classes have those DPSes naturally and with better mana regeneration, easier usage and probably better healing also. (I am of the opinion if two classes perform the same, the one with the better advantages elsewhere is the better one, which may be true on paper, but I sometimes wonder if the results are the same is the difference really important..)

So once it goes rare, it'll probably just be obsolete period as VL and BB will stay ingame...


< Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 10/11/2019 16:28:46 >
AQ  Post #: 474
10/12/2019 2:16:08   
ArchNero
Member

Lord Of Order not a half bad class.

Got good buffs across the board, buffing stats by 20%, buffing outgoing damage by 30% and on top of everything your crit damage gets buffed by 40%.

The inverting of enemy damage is pretty cool, you can initiate with that skill on a hard hitting boss like ultraalteon or any boss in general that hits really hard.

I don't have a lot to complain about the class or if any at all, unless anyone wants to chime in on their thoughts on this support class.
Post #: 475
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