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1/1/2019 6:59:09   
you stop
Member

Hold on a second, I thought we're talking about 100k hp mobs? Also this entire time ive been arguing dps, not sustain lmao.

1.8k dps on Spiral Carve
2k dps on HP Vamp (no not MP)

I did maths and actual testing. I no longer have any argument to make except numbers dont lie and HP Vamp is better

I will no longer explain the rationale why HP vamp because you keep telling me im arguing sustain when the entire time ive been arguing dps.

< Message edited by you stop -- 1/1/2019 7:01:13 >
AQW  Post #: 76
1/1/2019 11:09:01   
Instantstrike
Member

huh...i didn't know what's up with monster hunter cause aqw news is hard to come by, either way.

i didnt know that monster hunter was delayed right until the server rewrite was done, i thought that the class was forgotten or not planned yet.



can't believe i made a class design for monster hunter, i suggest that in the new class thread, what a waste :( i hope that they'll be able to released it soon
AQW  Post #: 77
1/1/2019 11:20:18   
kaziboca
Member

spiral carve gives crit% as well, are you including that
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 78
1/1/2019 18:21:51   
Hardcastle McCormick
Member

@You Stop
So you're saying that HP Vamp does more actual damage when it procs than Spiral Carve for EPL? Because that's the only way your "2k DPS" numbers would make an iota of sense. I said "100k hp and lower" and told you at least 4 or 5 times that I found it utterly impossible to run out of health with the test I was doing, meaning there can't possibly be any difference in DPS between Spiral and HP vamp under those conditions since ACCORDING TO YOU, its effect on DPS has to do with the fact that one EVENTUALLY runs out of health to spam 5, which DOES NOT HAPPEN for most 100k HP bosses, nor does it happen for 10k, or 20k, or 30k, or 40k, or 50k, ect, ect, ect, ect, ect. I never even disagreed with you that HP vamp will improve LONG TERM continuous damage for all the exact reasons you keep stating, but you seem to have no concept of the difference between long term DPS and short term DPS, so I'm 110% done with this conversation.

If the server rewrite is as glorious as they want it to be, maybe we'll finally get that SoulWeaver class everyone wanted in 2013... AE said they wanted to make SoulWeaver but lacked the means to "do it proper justice." Since then there has been a dramatic increase in the quantity of new animations (even if some are pretty laggy) so I would think by now they could probably come up with something that looks good. The question then is what kind of class it should be, and whether people still want it as bad as they used to. Also I've done like 3 or 4 suggestions for possible SoulWeaver ideas over the last 5 years and wanna see something happen! Oddly enough the only other class I've been as hyped for as SoulWeaver was Evolved Pumpkin Lord... I remember being bitterly disappointed in the Octobers of 2012 and 2013 waiting for it to become a thing.

< Message edited by Hardcastle McCormick -- 1/1/2019 18:33:14 >
AQW  Post #: 79
1/1/2019 21:12:51   
you stop
Member

@above youre not reading my posts so i honestly have no time to read that

quote:

spiral carve gives crit% as well, are you including that
Yes I have but okay think this: Your 5 is guaranteed crit and your 2 is guaranteed noncrit. So from there we go to autos and your other two abilities. I do not deny that spiral carve increases damage but 2 and 5 produce more damage combined as opposed to 1,3,4 combined so we argue that those two are your major damage sources.

2 does not use up resources except mana which is gained back by using 5. 5 uses HP as resource but you have a HoT. Problem with EPL is 5 uses up more HP than the HoT heals then we factor Boss's damage. So no matter what scenario, you will be at a net loss and will eventually die regardless of what amount of HP you fight. If youre fighting mobs that wont kill you before you kill them, you still have to rest due to 5's hp cost.

The argument of HP vamp on EPL being better is due to two things: one, 5 uses HP as resource and two, your HP is always suffering a net loss. And so, enter HP Vamp which solves all that. Given that it is RNG, then DPS fluctuates but overall tests show that it gives more raw damage done over a period of time. Given also that a single proc of Spiral Carve is stronger than HP Vamp but the benefits of HP Vamp outlasts that of Spiral Carve.

So from theory, we go to tests. I have already produced the numbers. No more point arguing from there.

Lvl 90 Unarmed vs Undead Artix

hp vamp
average 0:49

spiral carve
average 0:51

Conclusion: So maybe I may have been wrong about the overall usage but I also cannot accept Spiral Carve as a superior option. My final conclusion is that they are both very similar in short term fights with no obvious differences. What tipped the average is the outliers in this test. The general average would be about 0:49-0:50. From these tests, both me and Hardcastle were wrong. But in terms of a long fight then there's no question: HP Vamp is better.

If anything, I could point out that after the fights, Spiral Carve would always put me at 2/3 HP. Again, a value I could easily rest out. If the HoT is still on by the time the fight is over then that missing 1/3 wouldn't matter. But as expected, I was almost always at full HP if i was using HP Vamp.


also i was questioning earlier how the GB was used because:
GB average 0:45

< Message edited by you stop -- 1/1/2019 22:13:33 >
AQW  Post #: 80
1/2/2019 1:32:54   
Hardcastle McCormick
Member

quote:


My final conclusion is that they are both very similar in short term fights with no obvious differences. What tipped the average is the outliers in this test. The general average would be about 0:49-0:50. From these tests, both me and Hardcastle were wrong. But in terms of a long fight then there's no question: HP Vamp is better.

Oh would you look at that you just proved MY EXACT POINT. I never once even argued that spiral carve is superior - I've been saying they're effectively THE SAME in the short term this whole time.

< Message edited by Hardcastle McCormick -- 1/2/2019 1:44:51 >
AQW  Post #: 81
1/2/2019 3:00:33   
Edme MacHeath
Member

I'm here to tell you both that you're both wrong. Spiral Carve is always better by percentage of chance it being better. For short fights. Obviously you kinda have to use HP Vamp in a longer fight but until that point carve is better.

quote:

hp vamp
average 0:49

spiral carve
average 0:51


You were just unlucky. This is not an objective result but the result of RNG. EPL objectively does better in DPS with Spiral Carve but it's less marginal than other classes because a portion of it's DPS is locked away from crits mattering. I can understand with RNG that you may be able to pull some results with HP Vamp better than carve because there is a huge reliance on simply proccing to make one faster than the other, unlike other classes which the spiral carve proc then proceeds to affect the classe's entire DPS.

Even if with a class that has a significant portion of it's DPS locked away from crits mattering, the likelyhood of spiral carve being better than HP vamp is what makes spiral carve objectively better, not that spiral carve is simply going to always do better.

It's rather sad that this is how we have to determine that Spiral Carve is better because this largely doesn't apply to literally almost every other class but that's just how it is.

quote:

Oh would you look at that you just proved MY EXACT POINT. I never once even argued that spiral carve is superior - I've been saying they're effectively THE SAME in the short term this whole time.


Effectively may be true, but why would you still not use spiral carve. if you have more a chance to save time with spiral carve than you do with HP Vamp, then shouldn't spiral carve still be better and therefore the enhancement used regardless of whether it's "effectively" the same.


This has gotten into weird technicalities and defining terms.
There is only an obvious pathway to determining whether you should use spiral carve or HP vamp.

1. Which enhancement will more often give me higher DPS?
or
2. Do I need to use HP vamp to give me more sustain?

If you can even get away with being more suicidal with EPL's 5 and it leads to more damage while still being able to kill the boss, then you should absolutely take that chance and ignore HP.
HP Vamp is for sustain and sustain only. Once you pinpoint the point where sustain is more important than damage is the point where you choose HP Vamp.

That being said I do actually know of one situation where HP vamp can potentially lead to higher DPS and higher survival. But it's such a RNG based thing.





< Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 1/2/2019 3:08:17 >
AQ  Post #: 82
1/2/2019 22:29:07   
Hardcastle McCormick
Member

^I assume you stop's gonna demand testing results or something because they seem very confident in all the "maths and actual testing" they've done, as if no one else here does tests before making a claim.

And yes, that's what I mean by 'effectively'. The DPS difference is negligible enough that the utility of not having to rest as often can have some impact on general gameplay - especially for lower level players or higher level enemies.

< Message edited by Hardcastle McCormick -- 1/2/2019 22:38:16 >
AQW  Post #: 83
1/3/2019 1:33:32   
Edme MacHeath
Member

^I understand, it's just the term "effectively" in this case makes it sound like you would even be using health vamp over spiral carve in a general use or even in this situation. I almost always default to spiral carve. And before anyone starts to argue you can just enhance different weapons, I only have 1 weapon with a 30% boost and 1 weapon with a 51% boost so using different weapons is like 20% or 30% difference in damage boost. I guess I could re-enhance when I find a situation where Health Vamp is better, but there's almost no reason for me to go re-enhance when I could just switch to a class better suited for the task.



AQ  Post #: 84
1/3/2019 1:43:39   
Veya
Member

BBoA and NSoD now have Dual versions available in /nostalgiaquest actually, allowing for two copies of each if you get them back with buyback, but I suppose the 8 year old account entry cost is something not everyone has available...

I actually keep my Dual NSoD as Spiral Carve Thief, for Chrono Assassin shaninegans.

< Message edited by Veya -- 1/3/2019 1:46:39 >
AQW  Post #: 85
1/3/2019 2:05:46   
Instantstrike
Member

ok just a question.

has anyone try to solo warlord icewing with a ToH, i mean, if chrono assassin can do it, why not ToH?

i actually tried and i was half way close, rip





< Message edited by Instantstrike -- 1/3/2019 8:01:12 >
AQW  Post #: 86
1/3/2019 2:27:49   
Veya
Member

I tried with Horc Evader.

The main issue I was facing is that HE is that Hunter's Call increasing the enemy's haste and making the enemy attack more often really messes you, since that essentially gives the enemy more chances to break through your dodge, and Warlord only needs to break through once, while CA can continuously stun with Hysteria and make him attack *far* less often, and Hunter's Call is basically mandatory since Smell Fear reduces your Haste, on top of that, HE's DPS is absolutely *abyssmal* compared to CA, which just makes the fight last even longer and give the enemy even more chances to hit you and end your life, I cannot stress enough how CA actually having very good DPS for how powerful the class' dodge aspect is helps to consistently pull off the solo, since less turns means less dice rolls.

I kinda get the point with Hunter's Call, it's meant to make you dodge more hits and so regen more mana out of the same enemy, but when the enemy only needs one hit, that's a huge problem.

< Message edited by Veya -- 1/3/2019 2:31:13 >
AQW  Post #: 87
1/3/2019 2:55:39   
ArchNero
Member

^
Honestly it's just that a lot of people sleep on CA. And how when it first came out that it was quickly dismissed as a bad class. Of course figure it out a few days later turns out CA does has some impressive DPS, by the time most people probably already forgot about CA. And nowadays it's the VHLs you see more commonly.
Post #: 88
1/3/2019 3:03:18   
wind_bullet
Member

Actually when CA came out, it had a dodge stacking bug that only stacked like 5% per stack instead of 8%, resulting in it being a mediocre dodge class. However, now that problem has been fixed, the class is extremely powerful and fun to play with.
Post #: 89
1/3/2019 3:07:39   
The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*


quote:

I kinda get the point with Hunter's Call, it's meant to make you dodge more hits and so regen more mana out of the same enemy, but when the enemy only needs one hit, that's a huge problem.

Horc Evader never had dodge regen, so Hunter's Call never did that. I doubt HE would ever change to dodge regen, because it casually hits 85%+ dodge now, or something like that.

The class that had Hunter's Call done right was Pirate, which does +25% haste and -35% damage.
DF AQW  Post #: 90
1/3/2019 3:37:15   
Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!


quote:

HE's DPS is absolutely *abyssmal* compared to CA, which just makes the fight last even longer and give the enemy even more chances to hit you and end your life, I cannot stress enough how CA actually having very good DPS for how powerful the class' dodge aspect is helps to consistently pull off the solo, since less turns means less dice rolls.

If you can keep up Enrage for most of the fight, it's actually not that bad, and that is entirely possible, more so with Mana Vamp. Essentially, the DPS of Horc is dependent on your ability to save up mana for Enrage. It may be worse than CA still, even if you kept it up 100% of the time, which I am sure is possible, somehow, but I will take what I can get as a non mem, it gets the job done all the same.

At lvl 90 with 2 Thief enhancements (and probably around lvl 70 or so with full Thief), you can get enough dodge to never get hit and consistently keep all that dodge by looping your skill buffs, so the only time it ever matters how long it takes is if:
1. You are in a hurry for some reason.
2. You get lazy and let your dodge buffs fade.

I have found a pretty surefire way, although not the best in terms of damage to keep up my dodge and haste and still be able to use Enrage every so often. Once fully stacked, every time I use Shadow Strike once, I use both Smell fear and Hunter's call, after which I wait 5-6 auto attacks to use Shadow Strike again. It doesn't leave a lot of mana left unless you get some Mana Vamp procs, but it's a lot less stressful than manually trying to manage all 3 buffs at once. If I was going for damage, I would definitely mix it up a little to try and save mana, because with this rotation, you do still have a bit of time left that you could make better with on Hunter's Call and Smell fear.
AQW  Post #: 91
1/3/2019 3:59:40   
Edme MacHeath
Member

quote:

BBoA and NSoD now have Dual versions available in /nostalgiaquest actually, allowing for two copies of each if you get them back with buyback, but I suppose the 8 year old account entry cost is something not everyone has available...


I cannot access nostalgiaquest on some of my accounts. And the one that has EPL is not 8 years old. I would use my beta account but unfortunately it's neither member or a high relevant level.
And the effort I would need to do the leveling seems not worth the effort when I never need to use Health Vamp anyways other than for testing DPS differences.


< Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 1/3/2019 4:03:40 >
AQ  Post #: 92
1/3/2019 10:53:10   
Elemec
Member

I wanted to know if the Exalted Soul Cleaver/Harbinger/etc is worth grinding, I just became a legionnaire yesterday night. I have plenty of time till Dage's birthday, so I wanted to know if it's any good, or if it should just stay in the bank/not even be bought in the first place. (Already aware of Shogun Paragon Pet and Legion DoomKnight, gonna get them when Dage's birthday comes)
AQW  Post #: 93
1/3/2019 11:14:22   
Veya
Member

@The ErosionSeeker

Hm, I think I didn't actually look, and just assumed it had, because with how powerful the class' dodge aspect is, it made too much sense to me for it to have it.

@Metakirby

The point still stands that, when the enemy only needs one hit, being even a little bit slower while also making the enemy attack more often is a massive detriment, you do *not* want to give Warlord the time of the day to hit you, and every second longer the fight lasts is more chances for just that to happen.
AQW  Post #: 94
1/3/2019 11:16:48   
G Man
Member

@Elemec
They're high risk, semi-decent-reward type classes, that benefit from being on very low HP to the point that you can be killed VERY easily.

Edit:

Testing done with 3 Fighter, Luck on Class, Level 70, Unarmed.

1 (Soul Rend) Did 169 Damage at full HP and 1390 at 10% HP While, that's a huge bump, that's far to low of a spot to be at for most content... (While NOT under the effect of Blood Price)
2 (Soul Leech) Healed roughly 800 HP per use.
3 (Soul Snare) Damage is unimportant, as it's debuff is what's important.
4 (Blood Price) Self damage is weapon scaling, and can double down on damage, similar to Sentinels Adrenaline Rush. It did 737 damage, and went up to 1537 damage. While the damage increase is good, VERY good, having to loop it is risky.

Overall, they're good, but there's safer classes out there that also do great damage.

< Message edited by G Man -- 1/3/2019 17:36:20 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 95
1/3/2019 12:42:44   
Elemec
Member

Ah, I see, thanks for the info, G Man! I'll skip on that then, I'll continue living with Glacial/SC/DBSK for solos, then.

Last thing I wanted to know was regarding farming. I'm trying to get back at BLoD (a little amount every day), and noticed Shaman starts suffering a somewhat annoying mana problem. Should I stick to it and just let the monsters hit me a bit to regain more mana (it was really fast at clearing up Battleunderbs for a decent while, just had to take hits sometimes) or use another class? (I have access to Ranger, Chaos Slayer, Royal BattleMage, Scarlet Sorceress, Chunin, Troll Spellsmith, and my charpage's here in case I missed any)
AQW  Post #: 96
1/3/2019 13:31:01   
ChaosRipjaw
How We Roll Winner
Jun15


Use Mana Vamp Awe enhancement on Shaman, that should mitigate Shaman's mana problem due to its warrior regen. That combined with spacing out your skill usage and Shaman should have almost no mana problems.

Of all those classes, Shaman is the best farming class there is. It's my go-to class for farming.
Ranger is abysmal, Chunin is great but has almost no healing, I hear Troll Spellsmith has mana problems, Chaos Slayer is inconsistent.

I guess you could try to get Blaze Binder as well.

< Message edited by ChaosRipjaw -- 1/3/2019 13:32:48 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 97
1/3/2019 16:04:10   
Tyroniter
Member

Alternatively, you could also go for something like Vampire Lord or ShadowScythe General if you want a little more convenience at the cost of a bit of damage output.
AQW  Post #: 98
1/3/2019 16:18:14   
Hardcastle McCormick
Member

@g man
Iím curious why you used 3 Fighter, since that results in considerably lower overall damage compared to full Lucky. Iím pretty sure its been proven at this point that the HP and noncrit benefits from Fighter are vastly outweighed by the cons. Thatís why theyíre trying to nerf the Luck stat in the server rework.

@ChaosRipjaw
While itís true that mana vamp can be very helpful for Shaman, one of Shamanís biggest downfalls is its relatively low crit chance. The stats alone make it so Chaos Slayer can outfarm Shaman in a lot of situations. Mana vamp is probably the best choice in a variety of situations, but definitely donít rule out Spiral since Shaman benefits so much from a little extra crit.

< Message edited by Hardcastle McCormick -- 1/3/2019 16:25:42 >
AQW  Post #: 99
1/3/2019 17:35:58   
G Man
Member

It's just what I used for a little more endurance, so I could have a little more control over getting my health as low as possible..
I know full luck is the route to go but percentiles should be the same no?

I just wanted some numbers to show the increase to damage at lower HP, and the kinds of self damage you'd inflict.

< Message edited by G Man -- 1/3/2019 17:44:24 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 100
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