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1/16/2019 8:56:54   
Elemec
Member

SSG's AA seems rather low, but the buff it gives does appear as potent, does anyone have an average of how strong SSG turns out to be? I'm aware it's more of a PvP class, but it (seems) like it could replace Eternal for some people, depending on how potent it is.

_

On another thing, what are some good heavy hitting classes that aren't Seasonal/Mem/Calendar? All I can think of is Stonecrusher Full Luck. I'm trying to get one for both my main and second main, so that depending on the situation I can quickly kill bosses.

< Message edited by Elemec -- 1/16/2019 9:12:58 >
AQW  Post #: 151
1/16/2019 9:57:41   
zanathos
Member

@Elemec: Void Highlord probably best fits your query, but the method for obtaining it, while technically free, is admittedly pretty prohibitive by way of sheer effort.
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 152
1/16/2019 10:04:21   
Veya
Member

I would not use SSG for farming, it is very slow due to how its nuke works, and I would rather suggest Scarlet Sorceress over it, as the requirements for SS(level 50+a questline+a drop) are hardly prohibitive compared to SSG(either farm a fairly beefy boss for 100x 3% drops, or 50 days worth of dailies).
AQW  Post #: 153
1/17/2019 1:11:47   
Edme MacHeath
Member

I feel like honestly SSoT and even Immortal Chronomancer or Chaorrupted is better than VHL for almost every boss besides those that are sure to die against VHL's skill cycle (Pressing all 4 skills on VHL)

SSoT seems to do better against anything that takes longer than that, and absolutely does better against anything that can even live past the first DoT from SSoT (SSoT gains so much more from it's subsequent DoTs than it does from the first)

Like ideally SSoT does up to 15-20k from it's first DoT and closer to 30k total when you count all the damage you did during the build up. And like you're looking at over double that on the second cycle if you did everything right.
Immortal and Chaorrupted need some time to build up their nukes, but once they do, they can hit for 100k+ and way beyond easily too. So once you hit a certain point there's no reason to even use VHL if you have a recent calendar class.

VHL just can't compete anymore past being able to kill something for sure with 4 button presses. Like maybe it's possible to be alittle more viable if everything crits with VHL. But it's RNG at that point and I'm not convinced the ideal every skill crits even adds enough to put it at any significantly higher HP. You're still looking at 10-15k HP, maybe 20k+ if everything crits. (VHL does have 2 guarantee crit skills but it still has 2 that dont and a less than half crit chance doesn't really convince)

VHL isn't bad. It's a meta class and a tough farm that doesn't require ACs. But it just shows that we're moving the meta upwards way too fast if the class everyone complains about has been dethroned so quickly.

< Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 1/17/2019 1:15:23 >
AQ  Post #: 154
1/17/2019 4:50:43   
Instantstrike
Member

I agree with how the meta changes but i kinda don't want to blame VHL too much. I mean the original design of the class is very simplistic and just act as a real tank, not a super attacker with 300%+ attack or a defense more than a 100%. Cause of the major changes, we now get the current VHL. Im not blaming anything. Im simply saying at some point, the meta of AQW will change, but its a matter to how far they'll allow it.


(just check sync's old videos called void of nulgath, its kinda rare for people to figure out that its nothing but an old concept of his, same to abyssal angel.)

< Message edited by Instantstrike -- 1/17/2019 4:51:10 >
AQW  Post #: 155
1/17/2019 6:46:11   
Veya
Member

There are a few false equivalences in saying that, though.

First, VHL should *not* be compared to a Calendar class, that historically have always been quite amazing, the original Chronomancer was the best bar none when it came out, CDK was the first class capable of hitting for 7 digits damage, both Eternal Chronomancer and Corrupted Chronomancer can do similar, no class should be compared to Chronos because Chronos have always been a tier on their own, even if not all Chronos are amazing *COUGH*InfnityKnight*COUGH*

Second, tied to the above, VHL is a *free class*, while Calendar classes cost at minimum 6k ACs, or 20$+shipping, while VHL takes a lot of effort to get, it is still more accessible for people who are too young and have strict parents about online spenditures, or people who are not from the US, and can't afford to buy ACs so easily because their country's money is weaker than the dollar, which can sometimes make cost really prohibitive.

Third, ease of use and accessibility should be taken in consideration, VHL is mister "I am just going to hit 3, 4 and 5 until you are dead, 'k?", without any need for combos or the like, which makes me prefer VHL if I am farming a boss over ShadowWalker of Time, Eternal Chronomancer OR Corrupted Chronomancer despite owning all three, simply because I can play VHL without paying attention to the game, which is just not true for any of the current Calendar Class trinity, I normally only break out EC(still my favorite of the three big Chronos) if the boss has >600k HP, which is hardly every boss.

Yes, you can definitely say that Calendar classes are more powerful than VHL, but the statement should come with a ", but", outside of the realm of Calendar classes, VHL is still the best, with only LC holding up to it and being better for 300k+ bosses, and even within the realm of those classes, it's extremelly telling that all three of them have the exact same source(different calendars, sure, but still calendars), this tells me that we are not "moving the meta upwards way too fast", and I highly doubt we will get a non-Chrono class that will simply power creep VHL in the foreseeable future.
AQW  Post #: 156
1/17/2019 8:21:59   
zanathos
Member

Not sure why VHL is being compared to the Calendar classes, when Elemec specifically asked for the best hardhitting class that isn't a Calendar one.

VHL is available to anyone who is willing to put the time, not just people with the disposable income to toss around 6k ACs and it is far easier to use than Calendar classes, as well as being just as viable in most boss fights. You might not kill bosses blindingly fast, but its still the best jack of all trades class for all players
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 157
1/17/2019 8:45:34   
Tyroniter
Member

Idk why but I've never seen StoneCrusher as a hard hitting class, even with Full Luck. It's great at soloing no doubt, but I feel like some classes like Chaos Slayer, Soul Cleaver/Harbinger, DSG etc. possibly out damage it in solo situations no?
AQW  Post #: 158
1/17/2019 9:25:23   
Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!


Stonecrusher is most definitely a high hitting class, it's just very volatile due to needing several Magnitudes (not just in number, but also in timing, to some extent) to compete with the top dogs. You could argue that Stonecrusher has a higher theoretical damage output than even VHL, and it wouldn't be wrong, but that's the same as saying Dragon Shinobi has a higher damage output than VHL, once the rank 10 is active, which as we all know, is not reliable. If you can get Magnitudes to trigger stupidly often, which is generally the case in bigger group fights, SC's standalone damage is pretty nuts, and if you count Magnitude amplified Mana/Health Vamp crits into that as well, it's going to outpace non-Chrono classes quickly.

Chaos Slayer has a better scaling for longer fights, but that scaling is also capped, unlike Stonecrusher's DoT which can grow infinitely, in theory. Both classes can outdo one another depending on how lucky you get with their respective mechanics. A lot of Magnitudes for Stonecrusher, how many Anguished (and how little Courageous) you get with Chaos Slayer. Chaos Slayer has the advantage of not being able to lose stacks as easily, it's possible, but should generally never happen in a continuous fight, whereas Stonecrusher could lose the DoT due to not hitting with Endless Fissure once.

Soul Cleaver/Harbinger, while pretty good, is not easy to get good damage output + not die against something that happens to crit you for 500-600 at the wrong time. If you could always use Soul rend at about 10% hp left with Blood Price active, then it could be argued, but that is almost never the case and therefore it's solo damage output tends to lack a little bit behind the others. It can make quick work of low HP bosses though, kind of like Cryomancer, but without mana issues.

DSG (vs non dragons) is not something you would want to use in a solo, if the former options of Chaos Slayer or Stonecrusher are available. Perhaps on lower HP, non dragons, there is something to be said about it, but DSG is more tanky than damage dealing. DSG vs dragons would easily outdamage Stonecrusher, given the Stonecrusher gets an average amounts of Magnitudes.

On average, you will generally be better off with classes like GB, LDK or Chaos Slayer (in more cases than not), or the obvious VHL for killing bosses quickly. Stonecrusher is built mainly a support class after all and totally breaks group fights by it's presence, so it being this good, even alone is quite impressive.

< Message edited by Metakirby -- 1/17/2019 9:26:07 >
AQW  Post #: 159
1/17/2019 16:36:13   
The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*


quote:

VHL isn't bad. It's a meta class and a tough farm that doesn't require ACs. But it just shows that we're moving the meta upwards way too fast if the class everyone complains about has been dethroned so quickly.

VHL is like 2 years old now.
It's positively ancient.
DF AQW  Post #: 160
1/17/2019 19:06:36   
Edme MacHeath
Member

There's a huge number of problems with trying to argue VHL is more accessible than Calendar Classes, and a number of problems with every other argument afterwords.

First of all...I don't think there's any false equivalency to comparing VHL to Calendar Classes.

Obviously Calendar Classes are good but trying to tell people simply because they are good they cannot compare them to other classes in a thread about discussing classes is absurd.
Yes they totally outpace VHL. Yes they're better than VHL.

Secondly, I don't think either calendar classes or VHL are more or less acessible than eachother. There are plenty of arguments to even say that VHL is the least acessible class in the game.
But VHL and P2W classes are unacessible for different reasons and therefore cannot be compared as such. I'd honestly say that VHL's time required to obtain is many calendar classes worth of minimum wage but I wont try to enforce that as a main argument. VHL is too scarcely available to be anything but the most unacessible class aside from maybe perma rare classes or Legion Paladin. But since it's for a different reason I'll atleast say that it's not the same as p2W

Thirdly I don't think ease of use means for much. People aren't some braindead zombies who can't press buttons in any order but random. And even using SSoT poorly it heavily paces VHL, much less using immortal/eternal or chaorrupted even scarcely optimal. Perhaps if ease of use was something that actually could give better results instead of being an empty label to throw around on VHL, maybe I could agree there.

I have no reason to put a but after saying that calendar classes are the best single target DPS. I think VHL surely has it's own right to hold as the tankiest class ingame aside from maybe GT which is slow.
Maybe you can argue VHL is a better jack of all trades than immortal/eternal and chaorrupted. But that was besides the point. I wasn't arguing about jack of all trades.



< Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 1/17/2019 19:09:02 >
AQ  Post #: 161
1/17/2019 23:52:35   
Hardcastle McCormick
Member

Not to mention all the bank spaces you need for VHL! I just canít really picture a scenario where an actually free player without much bag space would have the motivation to put all that time in when they could spend that time playing fortnite or league for the same price. Also 6k ACs really isnít that crazy considering you can get that many for $5 if you use the 3 month membership deal.

quote:

Thirdly I don't think ease of use means for much. People aren't some braindead zombies who can't press buttons in any order but random.

I mean considering the kind of content on YouTube and the way many players play the game, I would think one of this gameís biggest appeals is how kind of brainless you can be while playing it. Hell I rarely play this game sober anymore. Itís also the case that a lot of people play the game without decent internet or a computer good enough to not have delayed inputs. I frequently run into people incapable of keeping skills looped, or even using more than 1 or 2 skills of their class in a fight! Iíve even met StoneCrusher who only apply their buff every 50 seconds or so. It seems impossible but somehow itís true.

Anyway all that aside, while itís obviously not rocket science, is there not a case to be made that SSoT is the single most unintuitive class in the game? I mean the rythm required to achieve its maximum DPS seems far more particular than any other class. And while you can just wing it and produce very good numbers, I seriously doubt it would better than spamming with VHL, especially since itís actually possible to run out of mana.

< Message edited by Hardcastle McCormick -- 1/18/2019 2:41:58 >
AQW  Post #: 162
1/18/2019 5:57:13   
Instantstrike
Member

Welp, this got out of hand. im not gonna direct my attention to the notion, "Calendar classes is better than a farmable class"

I am just gonna ask.

Which effect is better?
Damage Resistance to the user or Damage Output Reduction on the Enemy/Opponent?



AQW  Post #: 163
1/18/2019 7:39:31   
XeNON_54
Member

output reduction
Post #: 164
1/18/2019 8:09:29   
Instantstrike
Member

what made resistance and output reduction any different?

^
How come?

Removed quote. Please do not quote the full post directly above yours as it is considered spam. ~Shadowhunt

< Message edited by Shadowhunt -- 1/18/2019 12:35:48 >
AQW  Post #: 165
1/18/2019 8:50:18   
Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!


Resistance is taking reduced damage from attacks, which is an effect applied to the player, think of classes like Void Highlord, Dragonslayer General and Stonecrusher (although Stonecrusher also has output reduction in it's kit).

Output reduction is when you apply an effect on an enemy that deceases the damage they deal, which in terms means that they will deal reduced damage to everyone. Classes like Archpaladin, Necromancer, Legion Doomknight, Glacial Berserker and many others are example of output reduction.

It could be argued that output reduction is more valuable, since it saves more than 1 person from taking hefty damage from certain bosses and that it doesn't have a cap (at least it didn't use to have one), whereas damage resistance is capped out at 80%, iirc, but the effectiveness of 30% resistances vs 30% output reduction is the same, 30% less damage taken across the board. Output reduction is generally preferred in boss fights since most cases of resistances is bound to a single player and rarely party buffs. Stonecrusher, Lightcaster and to some extent FB are some of the few examples of resistance buffs applied to multiple players at a time.

< Message edited by Metakirby -- 1/18/2019 8:51:05 >
AQW  Post #: 166
1/18/2019 8:52:49   
Elemec
Member

March's still a long way to go, but I'm curious as to what is the skill cycle of Legion DoomKnight. Is it any difficult?
AQW  Post #: 167
1/18/2019 9:02:46   
Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!


All you really do is keep your Touch of Doom stacks going and spam every skill off cooldown, as much as possible. You never really change strategy at any moment, just smash your keyboard (at a reasonable pace) and you should generally come out ahead in most fights.

The only real tip I can give is to skip out on the heal, IF it conflicts with other cooldowns, it's your least valuable skill, damage wise. You would rather use any of your other skills over it, if you have to make the choice in the moment, and you are not desperate for HP ASAP, which you rarely would be.
AQW  Post #: 168
1/18/2019 10:11:07   
holyangeman
Member
 

Before I think of merging classes, it would be great if newer players get a duplicated, and not sister, version of rare classes which aren't classic. Such as glacial warlord, leprechaun, etc. There is still time to make changes because aqw keep updating its contents
Oh and BTW Vhl armor needs to improve, I would prefer nulgath drawn version, as it just looks unattractive compared to calender and lightcaster armors
OK now vhl vs calender is not right, except for ssot which I talk later
Vhl beats lc and calender classes like ic for short fights, since most players can't afford things at heromart due to personal data, which is cool.
If you want long fight you can use calender class which is better than lc unless you have no acs to spend.
Finally, ssot is overpowered. It beats short and long fights, which in this case needs to be nerfed. Its not hard getting the combo right.
They say if you can't nerf the class, you buff the rest

< Message edited by holyangeman -- 1/18/2019 10:19:31 >
Post #: 169
1/18/2019 19:05:46   
you stop
Member

Came back from a bit of a break. Someone asked how good is SSG if in terms of farming if it would replace Eternal Inversionist I would say if the monsters cant kill you as Eternal, use Eternal. Otherwise, use SSG.

Tier List: https://imgur.com/a/cNkiOCO

Notes:
1. If you see a 1-3s difference, put the classes in the same tier. I just listed them in ordinal classification for ease of comparison but a single second difference (or just a few) wouldn't matter until a very long farm.
2. I do recognize my inability to use Chaos Slayer so it would probably go up a few slots had I used that class better.
3. Lvl 85 enh in this test, I don't think there's much of a difference if I redo the test for Lvl 90 enh
4. I also do recognize this test's limitations which were long discussed

quote:

I would not use SSG for farming, it is very slow due to how its nuke works

If you mean that you use SSG's 5 for anything, don't. It slows you down.

I did post another tier list for soloing if you just want to maximize DPS which slightly went down to a debate.
Link: https://imgur.com/a/15Wai7G

Notes:
1. Settled: Evo Pumpkin Lord only needs HP Vamp for sustain. Then again, I was fighting Aranx.
2. VHL vs Chronos, I stand with Edme that they can be compared. If money is an issue then AExtras is your best friend. I know someone who "farmed" for SSoT with that method.
3. Apart from the obvious, Glacial Berserker is another hardhitting class you could consider if StoneCrusher is already in your list. I'm not too sure if they removed the Frostval events yet since I cannot be bothered to check but that's another class in mind.

Other than listed, Niche Classes exist.
1. Cryomancer with Frostval Barbarian. The class hits ridiculously high on its own but lacks in Mana Sustain, which FB happily provides.
2. Shaman with FB. Same reason as above. Shaman will be able to quickly build up damage if Mana wasnt such an issue.

< Message edited by you stop -- 1/18/2019 19:17:30 >
AQW  Post #: 170
1/18/2019 21:27:43   
Hardcastle McCormick
Member

^Ultra OmniKnight is a 3rd class I would say benefits dramatically from FB.

I feel like itís also a possible candidate for being brought back if they have any more interest in declaring classes ďtoo good to be perma rareĒ. Only Glacial Berserker comes to mind as a better single target DPS class thatís free. And again, I donít consider VHL a free class - at least not since they patched the merge shop glitch which allowed some players to skip 90% of the grind.

< Message edited by Hardcastle McCormick -- 1/18/2019 21:30:14 >
AQW  Post #: 171
1/18/2019 21:30:35   
you stop
Member

We could maybe propose that Lightcaster is free if one were to save up 1000 ACs from the free 500 yearly. But then so will Legion Classes that are available.
AQW  Post #: 172
1/18/2019 21:36:28   
Elemec
Member

Still a little interested on SSG, I'll check it out for how much I can rely on it! (if it turns out not to be very good... bank time!) And indeed, I've tried out FB + Shaman, and it works really well! Damage scales up super fast, makes me imagine a SC, FB and Shaman combined!

Lots of useful info, looking forward to getting my hands on LDK (and to some extent, Cryomancer) in the future!

< Message edited by Elemec -- 1/18/2019 21:37:00 >
AQW  Post #: 173
1/18/2019 21:51:30   
ArchNero
Member

Don't forget UEW/LEW is also another class that benefits greatly from FB.
Post #: 174
1/18/2019 23:03:14   
Veya
Member

quote:

If money is an issue then AExtras is your best friend.

This is actually not true for everyone, either, as the offers are heavily location-based, as someone from Brazil, I tried them a lot when I was younger and couldn't quite afford to buy ACs, and invariably they demanded your phone number(so they can charge your phone bill) or credit card number to "complete" the survey, and while I haven't personally tried them recently, I heard people complaining they remain exactly the same as ever, and based on what I can gather, AExtras are completely worthless outside the US or Canada, so I feel the point that Calendar classes are completely inacessible to many people still remains.

And I honestly don't think VHL is as insumountable a grind as people make it out to be, the only grind in the game that I consider actually insane is non-SDKA NSoD.

< Message edited by Veya -- 1/18/2019 23:06:14 >
AQW  Post #: 175
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