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RE: PSA: Dexterity

 
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1/14/2019 18:46:22   
AliceShiki
Helpful!


If anything, I'd like a reduction (Kalle brings a good point, so I don't think a removal would be good) on the role that STR has in ranged attacks.

Right now Rangers kinda got the short end of the stick with needing 2 main stats while the other standards builds (I'm not considering Hybrids and Beastmasters standard builds) need only 1.


And as everyone else, I'd be happy if pets could get a bigger chunk of their accuracy without needing DEX~
AQ  Post #: 26
1/14/2019 19:02:55   
Lineolata
Member
 

So here's my obligatory opinion essay on stat changes. The main issue I have is that mainstats are mixed up- ideally, each mainstat should only be obligatory for the associated build, and other builds should not feel other mainstats to be necessary, although they shouldn't feel that it would be a complete waste to invest in other mainstats either. Dragonfable got the general idea right, but the implementation is too DF-specific to copy outright.

Each mainstat should provide the full stat damage and BtH assumed by balance for its weapon type, and also provide some fringe benefit other builds would consider worthwhile but not a must-have.
-INT is a great example. In my opinion, INT doesn't need any change other than providing full BtH for magic- it does a great job of providing an universally-useful resource in the form of MP. Practically anyone can find a use for MP- guests, buff spells, paying the costs for subrace abilities, or even healing spells if they ever become widely accepted again- but no one except mages finds MP an absolute necessity.

-DEX should have the global partial BtH removed, and instead provide full damage for ranged. Dodging is the most obvious secondary benefit that could be offered, but as things are, even outside of the stunlock-nuke meta it's rare for a build to value dodging with how accurate monsters are. I still feel like DEX should raise MRM as a secondary benefit, and monster hit rates can and should be tackled separately.

-STR could get the same treatment as INT. It obviously should provide full BtH for melee, but while it could also increase maximum SP like how INT increases MP, two issues come up. STR shouldn't just be a melee version of INT even in the secondary benefits, and from what I remember devs prefer SP being build-independent. The only other secondary benefit I can think of for STR is increasing SP regen, but that has similar issues.

-CHA is honestly fine as it is; it's a very useful secondary stat. Earlier worries about beast builds being excessively penalized were because of DEX being mandatory, not because CHA was too weak. If beast builds no longer have to use two mainstats to maintain full effectiveness then I think that's all CHA needs.

-LUK is similarly fine as things stand in my opinion; initiative, lucky strikes, and status rolls are all attractive enough to make LUK popular without making 0 LUK builds unacceptable. The other minor benefits it provides are nice, too.

-END's issues mostly come from issues with how HP is valued- already the subject of an ongoing GBI thread. Still, I feel like if you're going to invest significant resources in nothing but being tanky, it should make you amazing at it, even beyond just having lots of HP, so perhaps END could affect your Health resistance by some amount, and make heals heal even more? I realize this might count as double-dipping for heals that already base themselves off of your END, but I feel it's justified by the investment needed and the niche status of direct healing. Effects that heal you some portion of the damage you do are much more popular, and they wouldn't be affected by this.
AQ DF  Post #: 27
1/15/2019 0:01:09   
Willowofwish
Member

Thor and I had some discussion on this in the discord, and it seems that many of our ideas overlap with peeps above:
1. Have damage and BtH come from their respective type. So that means melee weapons damage and BtH come from StR, ranged weapons damage and BtH come from Dex, and Magic weapon damage and BtH come from Int. Or at the very least, have a certain X% of BtH and damage coming from your respective MainStat(say, like 80%. Not too eloquent in the math/balancing part here).

2. Furthermore, we think that the stat should give some "perks" to those that train them close to or at the maximum. This will only apply say, if your stat are within 10 points of max stat(250). Let's say you get an X % of BTH from using magic (weapons, spells) with INT for example on top of this if your Int is near to or maxed out you would receive less damage from magic attacks. LUK is good as it is as should give you a little buff to your hit chance, but perhaps if you max or near max it each turn you can have a small chance to deal twice as much damage, hence a LuKy strike. When maxed out or near max out Dex could debuff the monsters with the -BTH, then give you a higher block chance. STR could give more SP if you max or near max it out. END would at a high number give resistance to melee attacks.
AQ  Post #: 28
1/15/2019 1:50:45   
Warren.
Member
 

quote:

If anything, I'd like a reduction (Kalle brings a good point, so I don't think a removal would be good) on the role that STR has in ranged attacks.

this absolutely
Post #: 29
1/15/2019 6:33:57   
I Overlord I
Member

...Provided that DEX retains its defining characteristic in dodge rate (maybe change it back to the OLD formula if it's still "too broken" [i.e., player dodge: DEX/10 + LUK/20]), and STR's role is drastically lowered while DEX's is concurrently increased in determining ranged weapon damage (e.g. NEW ranged damage formula = DEX/12 + STR/24), I wouldn't be averse to nerfing its universal accuracy. Namely, as far as guests and pets are concerned. Beyond that, I don't know. INT and STR are overly strong as is. Might just be a repeat of nerfing LUK and inadvertently buffing DEX too much consequently all over again.

-EDIT- Something like (DEX*1.25)*.072 + (STR*1.25)*.028 (despite looking overly complicated) is technically much more fair than the makeshift equation proposed above, on second thought. Not only does it turn STR into a proper secondary (as opposed to a primary) for rangers, it doesn't allow any would-be abusers among mages to take advantage of the "free" DEX without a proper investment in STR to out-perform magic weapons. Miscs. still exist, yeah, but then that's true of INT-boosting ones, too, so.


< Message edited by I Overlord I -- 1/15/2019 8:25:34 >


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AQ  Post #: 30
1/15/2019 12:55:48   
Thor
Member

The balance needs to be thrown out, it’s ruining the RPG elements and builds. BTH should come from thefitting stats, not from dex or luk. Dex should be blocking and at a high stat level(close to 250) youd get a perk, like -monster BTH and a small chance to block a hit, a little ability. END at high stats would be maybe melee resistance, INT could be Magic Resistance,cha at a high level could be less damage one round from attacks, CHA would of course give pet bth,dmg as every other stats work, str could give status resist/more SP. This would make it so we could make actual cool builds. You could make a godly no damage but high blocking and resist build that would strictly use magic etc. All this is just suggestions but I do think going a lot more RPG would be a very good way to fix this and as said make everything unique.

It would make each stat unique. It would fix DEX and make it useful for certain builds but not actually requied. Dex weapons would get damage/BTH from DEX(RANGED), STR on STR(MELEE), INT on INT(MAGIC). Dexterity giving BTH does barely make sense to begin with and no one/barely anyone actually use it for what it’s MOSTLY meant for and just as this overused stat that gives you BTH which I think is silly and limit builds. However, me and Willow’s idea would make every stat useful and not required. You want to make a Paladin that takes little damage from magic based attacks but use spells? Sure, go ahead. You want to make a build that is able to block while using ranged weapons with maybe some pet damage? Be my guest. I do think that MAYBE Ranged weapons should also benefit a little from STR, so it doesn’t go and become OP with the blocking and spell casting style or whatever you choose to do, it is in theory a RPG but all this requires stat stuff has completly taken that away, and the general need for balance has weakend builds too, barely any fun or creativity.

So thats my idea, I would imagine most people would be happy.

< Message edited by Thor -- 1/15/2019 13:04:03 >
AQ AQW  Post #: 31
1/15/2019 14:09:55   
Warren.
Member
 

currently i believe STR makes up of 80% damage for ranged weapons. Please change it to 40% then those builds don't have to waste so many points in STR.

because a ranger must do 250STR/DEX thats 500 points spent. Take away the 20% damage from dex.

< Message edited by Warren. -- 1/26/2019 15:36:13 >
Post #: 32
1/15/2019 15:21:08   
gavers
Member
 

A lot of the suggestions seem to be around either overhauling the system or making Mainstat be the sole responsibility for accuracy with STR/DEX/INT being Mainstat for Melee/Ranged/Magic.
I dislike those ideas for 2 reasons:
1. It removes a lot of diversity from the stat system, making it a 3 way choice with another 2 out of 3 choice for the rest of the stats.
2. Mainstat being responsible for "all things damage" make accuracy a redundant value.

What I offer is a more conservative approach of shifting power from stronger stats to weaker ones. Numbers are not firm and used to convey the ideas.

- DEX has too big of a role for Warrior/Mage's accuracy, making it a "must have" and having to split the remaining points between 3 dump stats. Therefore shift some (5-8 BtH per 200 DEX) onto Mainstat making DEX still a viable choice for accurate builds, but not a necessary if you want to deal damage.

- DEX Thematically shouldn't affect pets, but I assume is there for diversity reasons. Again, reduce the strain of DEX on builds, shifting some of it's accuracy contribution to CHA, and having a global BtH increase to reduce DEX strain.

- END is a completely useless stat since the balance is around assuming 0 END (which is understandable). To make it great again, or at least a little bit more attractive, out of the 1470 SP points at level 150, some (200-400 for 200 END) can be locked behind END, maybe even allowing it to go past the 1470 points. That probably wouldn't make it on-par with other stats, but can make it slightly more viable.

- Rangers suffer from having 2 Mainstats as well, and don't want to rely on both DEX and STR to be viable. Therefore shifting some of Rangers damage back to DEX can make them more viable.
That way, we support the theme of Rangers being a more accurate version of Warriors:
Warriors get all their damage from STR, but have some accuracy locked behind DEX
Rangers get all their accuracy from DEX, but have some of their damage locked behind STR.

Some baseline numbers for the bullets:

Before:
quote:

Core Stat Damage

Melee Weapon: STR/8
Ranged Weapon: STR/10 + DEX/40
Magic Weapon: INT*3/32
Melee Skill/Spell: STR/4
Ranged Skill/Spell: STR/5 + DEX/20
Magic Skill/Spell: INT/4
Pets & Guests: CHA/15

Melee: STR*3/40 + DEX*3/40 + LUK/40
Ranged: DEX*3/20 + LUK/40
Magic: INT*3/40 + DEX*3/40 + LUK/40
Pets & Guests: CHA*3/40 + DEX*3/40 + LUK/40


After:
quote:

Core Stat Damage

Melee Weapon: STR/8
Ranged Weapon: STR*2/40 + DEX*3/40
Magic Weapon: INT*3/32
Melee Skill/Spell: STR/4
Ranged Skill/Spell: STR*2/20 + DEX*3/20
Magic Skill/Spell: INT/4
Pets & Guests: CHA/15

Melee: STR*4/40 + DEX*2/40 + LUK/40
Ranged: DEX*3/20 + LUK/40
Magic: INT*4/40 + DEX*2/40 + LUK/40
Pets & Guests: CHA*4/40 + DEX*1/40 + LUK/40 // Trade DEX/40 for +5 Global BtH
Post #: 33
1/15/2019 15:39:41   
CH4OT1C!
Member

@gavers
With respect, the problem with this suggestion is accuracy doesn't work in the same way as pets or critical hits. Those are undoubtedly nice things to have. On the other hand, accuracy is vital for you to deal damage in any context. Simply reducing the amount DEX contributes to accuracy has 2 problems:

- 8,9,10bth is far too valuable to lose. It's a significant chunk of your accuracy to forego. At the other end...
- at 5,6,7 bth why would you choose to run DEX over LUK? At that point, LUK would be better overall.

I don't believe a simple modification will work because judging where to place the correct value is almost impossible. 200 CHA is nice to have but you can forego it. Accuracy isn't in the same boat.
AQ  Post #: 34
1/15/2019 16:14:56   
gavers
Member
 

@CH4OT1C!
You seem to assume 2 things:
1. 8-10 BtH are way too valuable.
2. You either go home or go bust. 200 or 0 DEX.

The first point is up for debate, I think 8-10 BtH are not that important, especially since accurate items exist in the game.
With the second point, it doesn't have to be the case. You can have 100 DEX and use the rest of the points for other things, foregoing 5 BtH, or you could choose the more accurate route and use 200/250 DEX.
It's about choice of style.

I don't believe the model of "Go bust or go home" is healthy for the few remaining avenues for creativity.
Post #: 35
1/15/2019 16:54:28   
Thor
Member

You can’t paticulary rely on items like that, not in game standards anyway. It’s way too little BTH. Letting them be their respective stats puts RPG into the game, letting players be strong if they want to but also a good focus every stat as I explained above. Without an overhaul there will always be a paticular stat that is ‘OP’ instead of just making main stat give it and not be addicted to something but instead choose your path.
AQ AQW  Post #: 36
1/15/2019 17:04:25   
CH4OT1C!
Member

@gavers
You assume, in your suggestion, that reducing DEX to an 8-10bth bonus is enough to solve the problem. You offer no explanation for this cut other than "accuracy items could cover it". As such, I see no reason to avoid making assumptions in my response. In my own opinion, I think your suggestion is a bad idea. Here are the reasons why:

1). Accuracy is not like pet damage. It filters into everything:
Player Turn = 100% (player attack) + 20% (skill/SP cost) + 20% (pet)
I have not done the detailed math behind this. However,
DEX factors into all of these sections. STR, INT, CHA, do not impact all three. LUK impacts all three, but is relatively minor. END is another problem entirely. DEX (currently) has a significant impact on all 3. If you choose not to invest in DEX, you impact on all aspects of your damage output. If pets are not included (as you suggest), you still impact on ~85% of your damage output.

2). Your maximum quoted reduction of 8 to 7bth. Assuming stats work as you suggest. 200 DEX = 7bth. Therefore, at 250 DEX, this would equate to 8.75 bth. Assuming you ran (an unlikely) maximum 250 mainstat, 250 DEX and 250 LUK. this would result in DEX contributing 20% of your overall stat boost to accuracy, it would equate to 28%. Neither of those are small figures. At first glance, it seems a pretty significant problem. On the other hand...

With the stat cap increase, players cap their mainstat and LUK to 250. This increases their bth contributions to 25 and 6.25 assuming 10bth. This results in an overall 31.25bth. To reach the same accuracy as before, players would require only 3.75 bth to reach their previous accuracy. In this light, your argument might seem reasonable. On the other hand, how many people would choose to run DEX over another stat? In your model, pets would be independent of DEX. Blocking has limited effect given monsters have higher base accuracy. In this situation, why would someone choose to run DEX? As you say, players could choose to run a bth misc, gain roughly ~200 DEX worth of bth.

3). This doesn't necessarily have to be solved with DEX but.. you could literally just kill 2 birds with 1 stone and have DEX become a ranged weapon mainstat. No, it doesn't become moot if it is tied to mainstat. Blindness, beserk etc. still modify accuracy. It's still a "thing".

AQ  Post #: 37
1/15/2019 17:29:05   
Aura Knight
Member

The problem with dexterity is that it is too important currently. It helps our accuracy as well as our defense by allowing us to block more. The issue with it staying as powerful as is lies in the new stat update we got. By requiring a high dexterity, other stats need to be sacrificed to help boost your main one. In this case, main stat is either strength or intellect. Why can't we make dexterity its own main stat? And then have another one replace current dexterity's effect? I think luck should replace dexterity here. Such a change would allow for the easiest means of adjusting builds later. You have one of 3 main stats, then luck as a secondary.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 38
1/15/2019 21:07:10   
I Overlord I
Member

And then what? LUK would once again become as OP'd as it once was and it would need to be nerfed, again. Life comes full-circle, repeat ad infinitum, suffer ad nauseum as a result etc. etc.
AQ  Post #: 39
1/15/2019 21:32:52   
Aura Knight
Member

Maybe they ought to consider adding a new stat that can take the place of dexterity's role for being the evasion and bth stat. My suggestion to put dexterity's current effects on luck wouldn't work. As you pointed out, luck would become too powerful and we'd have the same problem we have with dexterity now.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 40
1/15/2019 21:43:29   
I Overlord I
Member

Only if a "Wisdom" stat that affects MP stores is also introduced, tbh.
AQ  Post #: 41
1/15/2019 23:16:59   
Strength.designer
Member

In my opinion Dexterity should stay as the accuracy and blocking stat, as that is what makes the most sense in real life. If there is a problem then a solution must be found, but not one that throws logic out of the window, also people have to remember that the purpose of the game is not (or should not be) to make us overpowered, if a better stat system would require for pure builds to not have maximum damage and maximum block/accuracy at the same time, so be it. Annihilators aren't all of nothing? Why should they have perfect damage, blocking and bth at the same time? That's one of the problems in my opinion, people assume that they should be able to get a pure build where everything is perfect but hp.

It seems to me that people just want to be op and are not thinking for the overall health of the game itself. I'd rather that there is no option to have a perfect character by sacrificing hp, that would make players have to compromise and would promote more build diversity and thinking. Perhaps the balance of what constitutes an"op" character could be shifted from straight up op to "good characters" that use synergy between stats in various different ratios to their favour(which could probably require a fix in the current state of stats anyway).

AQ  Post #: 42
1/16/2019 0:45:40   
AliceShiki
Helpful!


@Above You misunderstand, DEX being a "necessary" stat doesn't harm pure builds at all. It mainly harms Hybrids and Beastmasters.

I think most people are fine with DEX still being a stat that works in overall accuracy and blocking, but it would be nice if its role was reduced, since right now it's quite bothersome to play as a beastmaster without DEX (Hybrids can do just fine though).
AQ  Post #: 43
1/16/2019 6:46:05   
Phlox Lover
Member

I strongly think DEX needs to be entirely removed from affecting pets. Pets should be independent and have their own BtH, but gain their "bite" from CHA.
Post #: 44
1/16/2019 11:48:45   
123456aq
Member

Yea right now its definitely noticeable with 0 dex as your pets and guests miss quite a bit even if you are relatively fine with the new years spell :( I really hope something changes because as it stands melee is almost entirely obsolete and magic is the only other alternative as far as beastbuilds are concerned because most beastbuilds use INT for summoning and upkeep. This is just purely through playing through as a 150/0/200/0/200/200 beastmaster not using werepyre. werepyre DOES help me but it doesnt help my pets and guests which someone need it now :(
Post #: 45
1/16/2019 12:44:51   
CH4OT1C!
Member

Absolutely not in favour of scaling MP to a "wisdom" stat. It would caused mages to unfairly lose a third of their stat points to gain the same damage as they do now. Moreover, the damage bonuses provided by STR and INT are currently balanced. It would break something that's already working fine.
AQ  Post #: 46
1/16/2019 14:48:28   
Primate Murder
Member

I thought it was just a meme, but if we're taking the Wisdom suggestion seriously, then it should logically go in place of Dex for mage builds as far as stats go.

Int would correspond to damage and accuracy of your magical weapons/skills and spells,

Wisdom would be responsible for mp.

AQ DF  Post #: 47
1/16/2019 14:49:23   
aef823
Member
 

One avenue of making Dexterity not just STR but for ranged would be to make it like melee, but lower the damage of ranged weapons to whatever, and then increase the dodge chance.


To put it simply:

-Melee weapons would do the most damage, but provide nothing else.

-Ranged weapons would do the second most damage, but in return provides massive dodge chance (I'd say huge enough to make up for not having END with it, like 25% dodge chance on monsters with similar stats and setup as you, by default). Also change some of the melee weapons (daggers, etc) into ranged, for theme purposes. Now there's an actual "rogue" starter class. I'd like instead of dodge it'd be some form of damage resistance, since my experience in almost all games that has percentage-based dodge is that it's bad, but it doesn't fit the theme of "Dexterity," maybe END, but then there might be problems with reducing damage by a set percentage, having a Misc that does the same, doubling your HP, having high resists, and then healing).

-Magic Weapons do the least damage, but since INT provides MP, it provides more utilitarian venues, like summons, bursty magic, and healing.

Then, the secondary stats should each do specific things that can build on your main stats.

-END is a problem I can't figure out how to solve. My best guess is to move almost every physical related stat effect to here for save purposes. And then massively increase the amount of monsters that have stat effects.

-CHA shouldn't affect BtH or Guest/Pet damage, and shouldn't be expected to be capped to do said damage/BtH. However, bring back the "CHA training" requirements from a long time ago, have CHA effect how often they attack/buff/block for you. ESPECIALLY for booster pets/guests. The DPS turnout for pets should still be the same with new CHA formula, it's just that they won't attack as often now with low CHA instead of missing 100% of the time, so people with no CHA can still benefit from them however minor.

-LUK is.. I don't know, if the devs want a bandaid fix, just put the global BtH formula here, but then that would just turn LUK into the stat everyone will have. My solution to the global BtH problem would be to get rid of the formula and expectation the MC has it entirely. As for LUK? It's fine as is, with an addendum; change the lucky strikes formula, instead of a 10% chance to do LUK damage, make it a LUK-based chance to do X% damage. The statistical turn-out should be exactly the same. The point is that people love it when they strike a critical, just look at Nat 20s in DnD.


Do note that the point of these changes isn't to improve on what a stat does - in fact almost all the design philosophies are still the same, but to rework the formulas and nerf a lot of the OP strats. And the key point is that each specific formula must feed onto each other, and thus needs to all be redone all at the same time; DEX's dodge shouldn't be too high to make END useless but not too low to make it less appealing than STR due to essentially being just STR with 3% dodge hooray, LUK's damage shouldn't be too high as to make mainstats obsolete but not too low to make the damage so useless the only benefit is the initiative.

In short, almost all the stats are good at what they do, the main problem is the formulas involving them. Also almost, not all.


Oh also, increase SP - maybe base it on END, and limit the amount of times you can attempt to use shadowfeeder pendant, micromanaging SP with essence orb is a bit annoying, and the only drawback I can think of to increasing SP would be said shadowfeeder pendan - since SP barriers have limits anyways.
AQ DF  Post #: 48
1/16/2019 17:36:04   
Kaelin
Member

I'm going to give my reactions here, which should come with the usual disclaimer I can't speak for the whole team. I can't hit everything, but I'm trying to address certain common themes.

* Having STR, DEX, and INT function as *the* Melee, Ranged, and Magic stats (not counting LUK's contribution) while the same stats also provide blocking is probably not going to happen. There will be little advantage in training both STR and DEX because training the second one doesn't add much value. For example, if you're already got STR for Melee, you can usually just stick with Melee attacks without needing Ranged, and Dexterity would only be offering blocking against one out of three attack types... which isn't very useful. My expectation is that most players would just choose their favorite of STR/DEX/INT and then probably pick CHA and LUK (or perhaps switching out CHA for END if you're using Dunamis/Thernda/Poelala), and that'll get boring/same-y pretty quickly.

* SP isn't likely to be math'd out to scale with END, because it already (indirectly) gives the player more SP regen by allowing the player to survive more turns.

* As for why Ranged stat damage is skewed towards STR, we're operating on a "20 turn standard" where warriors can do 1 Melee per turn with 20 Melee attacks, and mages do 4 Magic spells and 16 Magic weapon attacks. The Magic spells are considered 2 Melee in power, and weapon attacks are 0.75 Melee in power, so 4*2 (Spells) + 16*0.75 (Magic weapons) = 20 Melee damage. So, Mages and Warriors come out the same. What you see with Ranged weapons currently was a plan to have a Warrior using Ranged weapons (STR and DEX) be able to deliver the full 1 Melee per turn, but for conventional mages (INT and DEX, but no STR) be able to do 0.75 Melee per turn. Despite the STR component being so large on Ranged weapons, it only leaves 20 proc Ranged weapons doing a little less than the target of 75% (although the cap raise has changed this a little): about 27% of damage comes from "specials" that ignore stats, about about half of the rest (37%) comes from base/random and not stat, already putting a player at 64% Melee damage if the player had full accuracy -- it didn't take much more to put a 0 STR player up to their 75% limit.

Depending on other things we do, there will be some amount of wiggle room to increase DEX's stat damage component, but increasing DEX's role substantially (especially to a majority) means it can't do much on blocking without overpowering STR.

Does this mean "Rangers" need STR? I don't think so that's true. If you are training DEX but not STR, remember that you still have other stat points to train. If you train INT, you're already a mage with the ability to use Ranged weapons about as well as Magic ones (provided you're not using "buff" pets). If you train CHA and use guests, CHA will do more for your DPT than STR ever could. END and probably even LUK will probably be more efficient as well, but they're predicated on you being able to survive more turns (and keep in mind LUK's helping accuracy and damage as well), so it usually takes a slower playstyle. DEX + CHA + LUK already strikes a decent balance with pace and is frankly written off just because it's not a rush build with big numbers that uses FO armors and 0 proc weapons.

* We're not likely to have stats give special perks when maxed out -- most of them grow in value quadratically as it is, and that should be enough reward in of themselves.



With regard to Dexterity (and to a lesser extent other stats), here's what we're considering so far:

* Drastically reducing or eliminating secondary BtH (DEX*3/40) that all attack types get. This may be replaced to a degree by MainStat, although the BtH may be dropped altogether, with the appropriate changes to monster, weapon special, and/or blocking standards. Having DEX affect companion accuracy isn't very satisfying, and it's questionable whether it makes sense for Magic and huge Melee weapons. Light "Melee" weapons may instead be regarded as finesse weapons that (perhaps optionally) use Ranged weapon stats.

* Especially if we strike DEX's role on accuracy, we're considering changing Initiative rolls to look more like status rolls (Major: DEX v/ DEX; Minor: LUK v/ LUK).

* Dexterity will get a slight uptick on Ranged stat damage so 0 STR Ranged weapons can clock in closer to 75% Melee.

There are some things that inform how I'm looking at stats:

STR, INT, and CHA are offensive stats that can effectively SPEND SP. You ordinarily only need one outlet for your SP.
DEX is a defensive-leaning stat and END is a fully-defensive stat useful for generating SP through survival. While neither is required, both can help your SP, and they "stack" towards that end.
LUK's a decent all-around but doesn't have much of a role with SP.
While END is tops for taking hits, DEX and LUK usually help more with status resistance: DEX because it makes attacks miss (and most status effects auto-fail when that happens), and LUK moreso because of its consistent Minor roll effect.

DEX pitches in a little on offense for low/no-STR/INT builds, and DEX will help everyone on Initiative if we update it, but taking away its current role for BtH will turn it greatly towards a defensive stat. While preserving a small role on BtH could give it a little more offensive flavor, we already have an abundance of damage-centric stats (STR/INT/CHA), and allowing DEX to have a role with accuracy will keep it more similar to LUK.

Something we're taking a close look at is accuracy going each way. If we take DEX off of Melee/Magic/Companion accuracy, then the blocking needs to be formiddable enough to be worth the trouble. If an enemy has DEX + LUK, what sort of accuracy do we want players to expect if they come forwarding with MainStat + LUK? If it's around 75%, we know this may frustrating in some cases (even if enemy HP is scaled down to match), and it'll (justifiably) create more demand for 0 DEX monsters (which might make take 95% of hits)... and we've historically had trouble releasing enemies utilizing CHA or STR + INT builds (or whatever else keeps us from using either DEX or END so often). But if we make MainStat + LUK v/ DEX + LUK baseline hit around 85% accuracy, then you can expect monsters to do the same to DEX + LUK players, and we may not have made DEX all that rewarding on defense. There is some room for a little fudging: because monsters don't have a pet (like a player would), we can tweak monsters to get slightly lower accuracy (so if a pure build monster would get 85% weapon accuracy but only 65% pet accuracy, we might give such an enemy a weighted average accuracy of about 82% instead of 85%). We'll see what we can do to weigh the competing interests of wanting to be able to build characters who can hit often versus being able to build characters who can block often.
AQ  Post #: 49
1/16/2019 17:53:10   
Lineolata
Member
 

Well, that all seems reasonably fair, should be a decent start at the very least. Feeling optimistic about the changes, although I'd like to note that as it is having DEX (or even CHA) factored into companion accuracy interferes with standard assumptions- at 0 CHA, a pet is worth 20% melee, and at 200, 40%. That's already reflected in the damage numbers, independently of their accuracy- so if they miss more often because of BtH from stats that means they end up doing less effective damage than balance standards assume.
AQ DF  Post #: 50
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