Quickcast Re-Balanced


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4/25/2019 10:35:22

Primate Murder
Member

I think everybody can agree that the current stun meta is overpowered and overall bad for the game. It forces the staff to craft monsters and create patches in attempt to counter the meta, and leaves the playerbase frustrated with non-meta equipment and weak boss monsters.

Likewise, Essence Orb is the most broken item in the game. It renders moot all sp-regen items and leaves the player with no reason to actually use standard weapon attacks. The fact that the misc is technically balanced only makes it worse, since there's not much that can be done to change it.

What's in common between both issues? Their quickcast effect.

In an absence of all other effects, quickcast would be quite reasonable - a direct conversion of your resources into buffs and debuffs, at reduced efficiency due to a lack of a turn cost. It does not, however, operate in absence. Quickcast stuns provide an unreasonable damage bonus via free EleComp, quickcast buffs stack on top of that and Purple Rain means that you gain a bonus to your resources magnitudes higher than the 50% melee that a 1/battle effect is supposed to be. Essence Orb is the cherry on top, serving as the ultimate enabler of the stun-meta.

I know it's tempting to continue to play the game on easy mode, but we're now a fourth of the way into year 2019, and you have to ask yourself - when was the last time you were actually excited over the equipment release (Frostval and Bloodzerker notwithstanding)? When was the last time you've actually struggled with a boss or tried new tactics? Stun meta and Essence Orb are killing the game, and their quickast nature is what allows them to do so.

I have two solutions available - one rather radical, the other more conservative:

Remove Quickcast altogether.

As you can guess, this is the radical suggestion. It's probably the easiest way to resolve the quickcast issue, though, since we've only got about 10-20 skills/spells/items with quickcast effects.

- Turn Mesmerize, Snarl and Panic into toggles, paying 50% melee to attempt to inflict the effect at the end of each turn.

- Change Love Potion and Shadowfeeder into passive effects, providing a chance to gain control/celerity.

- Make Arcane Amplification, Buffalot, Element Imbues and other such spells have a turn cost. They won't be quickcast anymore, but they would get a bonus (75-100% melee) to their effects to compensate.

Action Points

Realistically, people don't have an infinite amount of time to cast their buffs or debuffs - the enemy won't stand still and watch you grow stronger (at least if they're not under effects of a world-class item).

I suggest giving the player 2 Action Points per turn which they can use for quickcast effects (3 actions total per turn). They can use the extra action to attempt to stun the monster, buff themselves or regain resources via miscs like Essence Orb and Pixel Ether; once they run out of Action Points, they can no longer use quickcast effects this turn.

It's not a perfect solution, but provides a much more reasonable cap on the player's quickcast effects than the current state of affairs.

What do you think?

Is there an obvious flaw with my suggestions?

Do you have better solutions?

Don't hesitate to leave post below with your thoughts and suggestions!

Post #: 1

4/25/2019 14:40:28

CH4OT1C!
Member

This is an interesting argument given it isn't backed by a standard mathematical argument. Before I say anything on this topic specifically, I've already tried to balance essence orb before in this post. I think essence orb will remain overpowered without efforts to curb not only its quickcast potential, but also the very trade itself.

I totally agree with you that the meta has gotten way out of hand. However, I don't necessarily agree with your methods of solving the problem. The first, whilst effective, kills item variety for the sake of fairness. It also sets a dangerous precedent where our options become extremely limited due to the potential for abuse. The second feels disproportionate. Why do we need to limit all quickcast effects to once a turn. The whole point was that you could use them as many times as you like (for a cost, of course). I believe a simpler solution would be better.

Firstly, resource converters. They offer HP/SP/MP using a slightly modified version of the standard 1:1.125:1.5 ratio. Why is it that we don't significantly pay for this ability? Sure, the ratios aren't perfect:
Pixel ether: 98sp for 118mp. About 90% efficiency
Discount candy bag: 131mp for 80hp. About 92% efficiency
Essence orb: 75hp for 88sp. About 104% efficiency (HP costs are interesting. Again, check the thread out).
The efficiencies here lack rhyme or reason, just tacked on and justified as the penalty for quickcast. However, what if a formal penalty were introduced to pay for these effects? A more severe penalty would definitely discourage use. There is no real mathematical justification as without the penalty it should be balanced with those items which do cost a turn. However, much like an "always useful" penalty, a separate formal penalty could be added in these circumstances to bring things in line. This would not solve essence orb on its own, but would go a way to limiting its effect.

I believe additional penalties are also appropriate for quickcast spells/skills. We all know the standard *(1.25/2), but this isn't a penalty as much as correcting balance. You don't deal "turn damage". Perhaps an additional cost/damage penalty should also be applied in order to correct this. The severity of the penalty is another matter entirely, so I'd leave it up to the staff on that one.
This just seems like a simpler fix without restricting item effects.

Post #: 2

4/25/2019 15:17:42

Primate Murder
Member

That's my greatest point of contention, actually.

The stun meta got out of hand - and the staff (as well as player suggestions) try to deal with it by penalties and min-maxing the stuffing out of it. It doesn't solve the problem, though, not really. Double the EO's cost, hell, triple and quadruple it. All that would achieve is make End dump stat instead of Luck - the stun meta itself would remain unchanged.

No, if we really want to get this zard moving forward, we need to switch things around in a fundamental manner. rather than argue over an extra 5% booster damage or hp-sp conversion in a functionally infinite resource environment.

We need a paradigm shift.

Post #: 3

4/25/2019 20:05:06

AliceShiki
Helpful!

Removing Quickcast altogether would probably be a terrible solution, I mean... Ever saw anyone using Post-Sweep Eye of Naab? I certainly haven't.

Quickcast allows many effects to be viable, almost all quickcast stuff would be pretty pointless if you lost your turn to use them.

Action Points idea... Isn't bad tbh? I mean, Limiting players to use 2-3 quickcast effects each turn seem like just enough to make them still pretty useful, but not abusable enough to break the game~

I think it could end up being very non-intuitive for non-forum users though, which is a big problem IMHO, but overall, I liked the solution.

However, I have to say you're probably exaggerating the issue a bit... I mean, sure, those quickcast things can trivialize the game no doubt, and it does make most gear in the game irrelevant, but it doesn't mean people don't look forward for new items or try new builds out.

The forum is a small part of the community and it is flooded with people that prefer optimization and speed above all else... And well, in pretty much any game I ever played, the casual players that never make any comment on forums nor try to optimize too much have always been the majority. I don't think AQ is any different.

Post #: 4

4/26/2019 0:14:51

Primate Murder
Member

Well, Eye of Naab was swept because it was op. It could have been done better, but it was done. Are quickcast stuns any less op than EoN?

Non-forum players probably don't use the stun meta, though? So they wouldn't be affected that much?

And as for exagerating the issue, outside of meme builds and tertiary characters, who actually uses armors without compressed nukes? Outside of Frostval and bloodstuff, when was the last time people changed anything in their active inventory? I put ratings in Q&A part of the forum for returning players, and I find myself writing down all the same stuff I did a year ago. That's downright depressing.

Post #: 5

4/26/2019 5:07:07

CH4OT1C!
Member

quote:

@Primate murder said:
The stun meta got out of hand - and the staff (as well as player suggestions) try to deal with it by penalties and min-maxing the stuffing out of it. It doesn't solve the problem, though, not really. Double the EO's cost, hell, triple and quadruple it. All that would achieve is make End dump stat instead of Luck - the stun meta itself would remain unchanged.

I can understand why you're skeptical, especially given how well they've gone previously. Putting a bandaid on a bullet hole isn't going to fix the underlying issue at hand. However, I don't think you're targeting the right effect to nerf.
Let me flip...

quote:

@Primate murder said:
And as for exagerating the issue, outside of meme builds and tertiary characters, who actually uses armors without compressed nukes? Outside of Frostval and bloodstuff, when was the last time people changed anything in their active inventory? I put ratings in Q&A part of the forum for returning players, and I find myself writing down all the same stuff I did a year ago. That's downright depressing.

...on its head. Suppose we were to do as you suggest and remove nukes, would players significantly change their inventory? When you think about it, the answer is a resounding no. Although essence orb would now cost a turn, it's still the most efficient SP regenerator (by far). Mesmerise and co. would still be used as the most efficient form of stunning your opponent. Nukes of any description would still be used because you can still combine items. You'd definitely have an affect, you'd nerf the maximum power of nukes because you couldn't combine as many with the turn limit. However, I don't think this would be anywhere near enough to actually force significant inventory change-ups. I think there are two reasons for this:
i) A meta will always exist. If you manage to dismantle one, people will switch to another. People that like to optimise switch less often because they have very specific requirements. That wouldn't change by dismantling nukes. More importantly however...
ii) You haven't addressed the main issue here. You said it yourself in the first post:

quote:

@Primate murder said:
In an absence of all other effects, quickcast would be quite reasonable - a direct conversion of your resources into buffs and debuffs, at reduced efficiency due to a lack of a turn cost. It does not, however, operate in absence. Quickcast stuns provide an unreasonable damage bonus via free EleComp, quickcast buffs stack on top of that and Purple Rain means that you gain a bonus to your resources magnitudes higher than the 50% melee that a 1/battle effect is supposed to be. Essence Orb is the cherry on top, serving as the ultimate enabler of the stun-meta.

If, on their own, quickcast skills are fair and balanced, the only real reason you're suggesting removal is the sheer power of other items. You've already brought up the best example - essence orb. Sure, quickcast is a really nice extra, but the main problem is the cost:benefit ratio. I know I keep repeating this, but my thread talks about how HP costs are formulated in completely the wrong way. In this case, the way they're currently formulated makes essence orb more efficient than the standard conversion ratio. This applies even with the *0.5 penalty:
Assuming 1:1.125:1.5 conversion ratio
Theory: 75hp*1.125 = 84.3sp
Actual: 75hp -> 89sp. 1:89/75 = 1:1.186
Remember, these are conservative. If you were to force essence orb to gain a turn cost, it would become infinitely more efficient. A shadowfeeder-esque system would still be the most popular SP restorer due to its cost:benefit ratio.

Feeding into this, your methods to solve the issue are incredibly imprecise. You attempt to not only limit stuns for meta users, but also less-efficient choices. For example, FD players can make good use out of gandolphin. Removal of quickcast removes one of the major benefits of the item. There would already be considerable backlash from meta players for the destruction of arcane amplification etc (at least as we know them), but you'd also be incurring the wrath of everyone else that uses quickcast skills. Like I said in my first post, you're taking the position of "nobody can have these items because they can potentially be abused". What's worse is these aren't the main problem!
You could choose to argue the case for action points and, to be fair, they might be a bit more effective. Returning to gandolphin, players can't set up more than 1 mana shield at once and so the loss is diminished for players that use it. However, as in ii) you're not going to be dismantling the meta (or at least making other options as powerful) by continuing with this system.

With everything said above, I do think quickcast effects deserve some sort of nerf. The *(1.25/2) penalty simply brings them back to mathematical balance (the HP cost thread goes into more detail about why even this has flaws). An additional penalty, similar to always useful or autohit, may serve to encourage the use of other options. In terms of quickcast converters, @gavers recently brought out an interest conversion tax thread, which goes into more detail than I discussed in my initial post. That thread also talks about elecomp, which links with his other thread. Even with a 5-turn model, these suggestions more precisely limit the power of nukes. They don't necessarily fix things on their own, you'd still need an increase in efficiency (and more items) from other builds. However, it sets up a key weakness in the stunlock/nuke meta, which can then be exploited.

Post #: 6

4/26/2019 6:05:57

Primate Murder
Member

quote:

You'd definitely have an affect, you'd nerf the maximum power of nukes because you couldn't combine as many with the turn limit.

That's exactly what I'm trying to do. I don't want to remove nukes entirely, that would make the game boring, but I'm trying to make it so you can't beat the entire game on nukes alone. Against glass cannons? Sure, nuke away. Against tanks? Nope, nu-uh, you're not supposed to kill them in two turns.

quote:

A meta will always exist. If you manage to dismantle one, people will switch to another.

And that's a good thing. Meta is 'most-efficient-tactic-available', it will always exist by definition. I do, however, believe that 'most-efficient' shouldn't outpace any other tactic in the game by 5 times or more.

Also, searching for a new meta? That sounds fun, interesting and creative. I would fully support any such endeavors.

quote:

If you were to force essence orb to gain a turn cost, it would become infinitely more efficient. A shadowfeeder-esque system would still be the most popular SP restorer due to its cost:benefit ratio.

If you disable all quickcast effects, I suggest turning EO into a passive effect similar to werepyre's lvl 8 toggle - pay hp to heal sp worth 20% melee at the end of the turn.

If you go with Action Points, you can only heal a limited amount of sp per turn anyways.

quote:

For example, FD players can make good use out of gandolphin.

Um, since when do FD builds actually use Gandolphin? I've played pretty much every build in the game at one time or another, and the only times I've used Gandolphin is for nuking Wicked King or Ultimon. SleepyQrowKhaiin uses Gandolphin on Spoonzerker, but that's an offensive build despire using 100-procs.

< Message edited by Primate Murder -- 4/26/2019 14:24:13 >

Post #: 7

4/26/2019 6:32:49

Shiba
Member

I'm just gonna say this; instead of removing all quick-cast spells, why not do something about the ONE quick-cast spell that makes al the others so good: Purple Rain.

Post #: 8

4/26/2019 13:35:34

AliceShiki
Helpful!

quote:

Well, Eye of Naab was swept because it was op. It could have been done better, but it was done. Are quickcast stuns any less op than EoN?

Sorry, it seems I wasn't very clear on my point, my bad.

I used Eye of Naab as an example not because of the pre-sweep version, but because of the post-sweep version. The post-sweep version of EoN is useless because it costs a turn to gain its bonus... I'm pretty sure Eye of Naab would see more play if it costed 490 SP to give the exact same boost, but was quickcast.

Removing Quickcast altogether would just limit staff's ability to design good items IMO, you'd end up with more items with turn cost that end up just being too impractical to ever be used... Just like the new EoN.

quote:

Non-forum players probably don't use the stun meta, though? So they wouldn't be affected that much?

Well, complete removal of Quickcast would probably affect them! xD

But yeah, it's unlikely they'd be affected by an Action Points system.

quote:

And as for exagerating the issue, outside of meme builds and tertiary characters, who actually uses armors without compressed nukes? Outside of Frostval and bloodstuff, when was the last time people changed anything in their active inventory? I put ratings in Q&A part of the forum for returning players, and I find myself writing down all the same stuff I did a year ago. That's downright depressing.

Me me! I'm the weirdo that does it! xD

And well, any FD player does it too, or anyone that got tired of trivializing the game in general...

But yeah, most people that care for optimization would fill their inventory with nukes and stuff~

And well, the more meta-reliant your character is, the smaller will be your need to ever change gear because it's already very easy to trivialize the game... Even before Stun Meta was a thing, ratings almost always recommended the same gear throughout a long period of time, because it's hard to outclass the best items in game, that's normal for any game in general.

quote:

Feeding into this, your methods to solve the issue are incredibly imprecise. You attempt to not only limit stuns for meta users, but also less-efficient choices. For example, FD players can make good use out of gandolphin. Removal of quickcast removes one of the major benefits of the item. There would already be considerable backlash from meta players for the destruction of arcane amplification etc (at least as we know them), but you'd also be incurring the wrath of everyone else that uses quickcast skills. Like I said in my first post, you're taking the position of "nobody can have these items because they can potentially be abused". What's worse is these aren't the main problem!
You could choose to argue the case for action points and, to be fair, they might be a bit more effective. Returning to gandolphin, players can't set up more than 1 mana shield at once and so the loss is diminished for players that use it. However, as in ii) you're not going to be dismantling the meta (or at least making other options as powerful) by continuing with this system.

I think Gandolphin is mainly useful for FO builds? FD Builds can just use normal healing spells instead... Or some healing with other benefits included. (unless you're using Gandolphin + Generalist Robes + Imbue With Lore that is, in this case Gandolphin is way better)

quote:

Um, since when do FD builds actually use Gandolphin? I've played pretty much every build in the game at one time or another, and the only times I've used Gandolphin is for nuking Wicked King or Ultimon. SleepyQrowKhaiin uses Gandolphin on Bloodzerker, but that's an offensive build despire using 100-procs.

Not Bloodzerker, Berseker! Spoonzerker uses Berserker Hides! xD

quote:

I'm just gonna say this; instead of removing all quick-cast spells, why not do something about the ONE quick-cast spell that makes al the others so good: Purple Rain.

Essence Orb causes a lot more trouble than PR tbh? PR is more like the cherry on top of the cake, but EO is what enables infinite SP to use Buffalot + Shadowfeeder + Love Potion in one turn, PR just allows you to stay at full HP/SP after casting those 3.

So... Nerfing PR wouldn't really solve anything?

Post #: 9

4/26/2019 14:23:39

Primate Murder
Member

quote:

Removing Quickcast altogether would just limit staff's ability to design good items IMO, you'd end up with more items with turn cost that end up just being too impractical to ever be used...

I think you can get a lot of variety via toggles and passives, but I do get what you're saying.

quote:

Me me! I'm the weirdo that does it! xD

Weirdos are good, they keep the game interesting. Embrace your weirdness!

quote:

Not Bloodzerker, Berseker! Spoonzerker uses Berserker Hides! xD

Lol, my bad. I got so used to typing Bloodzerker that it came out automatically! Too... many... identical... ratings...

Post #: 10

4/26/2019 15:07:30

CH4OT1C!
Member

quote:

@Primate Murder said:
That's exactly what I'm trying to do. I don't want to remove nukes entirely, that would make the game boring, but I'm trying to make it so you can't beat the entire game on nukes alone. Against glass cannons? Sure, nuke away. Against tanks? Nope, nu-uh, you're not supposed to kill them in two turns.

Yet you're quite happy to remove quickcast skills/spells in their entirety despite that limiting our options by just as much. I'm not suggesting we get rid of nukes either, that would just as much of a nuclear option (if not more so). I hope it came across in my last post, but I'm against removing any kind of game mechanic unless it's an absolute last resort. There are other options for quickcast.
Not to mention, other builds use quickcast abilities too.

quote:

@Primate Murder said:
And that's a good thing. Meta is 'most-efficient-tactic-available', it will always exist by definition. I do, however, believe that 'most-efficient' shouldn't outpace any other tactic in the game by 5 times or more.
Also, searching for a new meta? That sounds fun, interesting and creative. I would fully support any such endeavors.

I'm aware of what the term means and what it entails. The points I was trying to get across:
i) You're not going to get people to switch items unless you nerf the current meta to a point where either it is as powerful or less powerful than another viable strategy.
ii) Your suggested fixes don't do either of the things above. People will still capitalise on the stunlock/nuke meta and it will still be better than other viable alternatives. That is principally because you haven't addressed the root cause of the problem.
Searching for a new meta isn't the main goal here (at least in my eyes). It should be trying to nerf the existing meta to a point where all others become equally efficient. It's a hard goal, don't get me wrong, but we'll run into the same problem over and over if we don't.

quote:

@Primate Murder said:
If you disable all quickcast effects, I suggest turning EO into a passive effect similar to werepyre's lvl 8 toggle - pay hp to heal sp worth 20% melee at the end of the turn.

No turn benefit so that's a plus. 78/98sp a turn would still be far more valuable than any other SP regenerator in the game. You'll curb the insane abuse possible with essence orb, but you won't have stopped it from being the go-to SP regenerator. You also haven't dealt with the insanely low HP cost.

AQ	Post #: 11

4/26/2019 15:34:27

Primate Murder
Member

quote:

There are other options for quickcast.

I welcome any and all ideas.

quote:

Not to mention, other builds use quickcast abilities too.

Not really. I mean yeah, you can fit them in, but players who plan to spend more than 1-2 turns per monster tend to have better uses for their slots and resources.

quote:

You'll curb the insane abuse possible with essence orb, but you won't have stopped it from being the go-to SP regenerator.

Actually, you would. People who want to maximize damage would prefer to use Blood Contract, Emblems, etc rather than a resource-regenerating misc.

quote:

You also haven't dealt with the insanely low HP cost.

Personally, I don't agree with with your solution to the issue, but this is not the thread to discuss it either way.

Also, I did point out that removing quickcast altogether is the radical option. Action Points provide a natural and reasonable cap to the amount of quickcast effects you can use per turn.

Post #: 12

4/26/2019 16:18:53

CH4OT1C!
Member

quote:

@Primate Murder said:
Actually, you would. People who want to maximize damage would prefer to use Blood Contract, Emblems, etc rather than a resource-regenerating misc.

Essence orb isn't currently in direct contention with these items because it's quickcast. Even if quickcast were to be removed, these items do fundamentally different things. One is regenerating your SP for purpose [x]. The other is increasing your damage output. Let's narrow that down and say you're only considering SP regeneration for use of a nuke, dealing 200% damage. Let's also assume a 20% melee SP regeneration of a melee skill (392) for conservation and we're using a skill that costs 490sp:
Blood contract: 20% per turn, able to use 1 skill every 5 turns. 1.2*8 + 2.4*2 = 9.6 + 4.8 = 14.4
Essence Orb: 0% per turn. Additional SP regen is 392*0.2 or 78sp. Total of 176sp per turn. Therefore it can use a skill 3 times, with an additional 270sp left over
1*7 + 2*3 = 13
In extremely conservative standards, you're right in that blood contract would be better. However, this doesn't take into account...
i) If it were based on the standard 490sp - Would be useable four times, taking the total up to 14.
ii) If you were using a skill which cost 392sp - Takes the total up to 15. <-- right here it would be better
iii) SP can be used on more than just damage output. There's value in versatility.
iv) You're taking an additional 20% damage intake for blood contract use. Standard HP costs are much lower, so it's much more efficient to use essence orb
v) As I stated above, they're not mutually exclusive. In fact, it would be outright beneficial to carry both.

but let's excuse all of that, stating people would rather go for another damage item and instead consider essence orb as an SP regenerator. The other options are:
Nightmareagon: Probably won't heal as much as essence orb and forces you to sacrifice a booster
Vampglin lord: Rare and relies on pet damage to outpower essence orb. Also forces you to sacrifice a booster
Shadowfeeder pendant: Sacrifice 69mp for 42sp. Much less efficient than HP and doesn't heal as much SP.
Fruitcake Brick: Rare, doesn't heal as much SP.
Of these options, I know which one I'd choose.

quote:

@Primate Murder said:
Not really. I mean yeah, you can fit them in, but players who plan to spend more than 1-2 turns per monster tend to have better uses for their slots and resources.

Well, each to their own, arguing with a sweeping assumption is a little pointless.

Action points may work. However, a simpler solution would be just to outright limit every quickcast ability to one or two casts a turn. Would save an awful lot of time on an impractical new bar and the results would be somewhat similar. With that said, you've already admitted that quickcast abilities themselves aren't even the problem:

quote:

@Primate Murder said:
In an absence of all other effects, quickcast would be quite reasonable

So trying to curb them when you let the others run rampant is pretty illogical, especially when attempting two different nuclear options.

AQ	Post #: 13

4/26/2019 16:57:11

Primate Murder
Member

Ok, I did not expect a text wall.

I got the number '20%' pretty much off a wall, just because the miscs provide a maximum damage boost of 20% melee. If you think the number should be tweaked, it can just as easily be 10% or 25%. If you want to create a mathematical basis for the EO revamp as a passive, be my guest.

Anyways, I'm not trying to make Essence Orb useless, I'm just trying to nerf it in two regards: meta-enabling and rendering all other sp regen items obsolete.

Limiting the sp gained per turn means you can no longer spam skills like there's no tomorrow, you can't spend an entire battle's worth of resources in one turn.

It also can be combined with or even replaced by other items depending on the situation. Werewolf and werepyre passives, Hunger sword, Sole and Samukematsuri shields, Horo Show shield and that donation shield - there are a lot of sp-healing items in the game that serve absolutely no purpose at the moment.

quote:

SP can be used on more than just damage output.

So can the misc you're using. Sure, you could regen sp at double the usual speed with EO, but wouldn't you rather just end the battle in the same amount of time it takes you to get sp for a skill?

quote:

However, a simpler solution would be just to outright limit every quickcast ability to one or two casts a turn.

All of out current items (outside of SFP and Love Potion) are already limited to 1/2 casts per turn. That does not stop the meta from casting every quickcast skill in the game over a single turn.

The Action Points don't even need to be a bar. There's already a system in place that makes sure you can only cast two Snarls per turn, one Element Imbue, etc. Simply add a generic counter when you use a skill tagged as quickcast - then make it run out each time you use two qc per turn.

Post #: 14

4/26/2019 17:28:55

CH4OT1C!
Member

quote:

@Primate Murder said:
Anyways, I'm not trying to make Essence Orb useless, I'm just trying to nerf it in two regards: meta-enabling and rendering all other sp regen items obsolete.

You've only addressed one of those two concerns, at best. Other SP regenerating items are obsolete. You'd probably have to halve it. At which point it would be very similar to fruitcake brick. You wouldn't really have the same item anymore. Killing variety for the sake of abuse prevention is not something I believe should happen because it sets a dangerous precedent.
Alternatively, you could just fix the HP;SP cost so that it offers a quickcast source but makes you feel the HP cost. I'd rather do that.

quote:

@Primate Murder said:
So can the misc you're using. Sure, you could regen sp at double the usual speed with EO, but wouldn't you rather just end the battle in the same amount of time it takes you to get sp for a skill?

We're now getting into a scenario where hypotheticals are being stacked on top of one another. The answer here is "potentially". However, in a real situation an item which recovers SP is probably going to be more effective than an item which boosts damage simply because you can do more with SP than just damage.

quote:

@Primate Murder said:
All of out current items (outside of SFP and Love Potion) are already limited to 1/2 casts per turn. That does not stop the meta from casting every quickcast skill in the game over a single turn.

I haven't really paid attention to this option so far (mainly because I don't think it'll work, principally because of the above comment), but...
i) You'd need to decide what is considered worthy of an action point use. Obviously, this would include quickcast spells such as gandolphin. However, in more of a grey area are items like pixel ether, which require multiple uses to gain any significant benefit. Are these worthy of as many action points as a quickcast skill. I'd personally each individual use isn't. In which case, you'd then have to devise an entire system around which items are worth more action points than others and a standardised criteria for that cost.
ii) You'd need to decide how many action points the player receives. Purple rain alone requires at leasts two casts, so you're looking at three to gain any real benefit from the item. Problem is, three casts are worthy of three different effects. A combination of shadowfeeder, mesmerise and arcane amplification is all that's really necessary to blow a monster away. Alternatively, you could fail and gain nothing for a turn. My point being: placing that junction is extremely hard, especially when even one quickcast skill can be massively exploited by the huge array of frankly insane nuke gear we have at our disposal. Like I said, nukes are going to be dominant even if action points are set to zero (ie removed).

Your idea is logical, a monster isn't going to hang around forever waiting for you. In theory, it might do some limited damage to the nuke meta. With that said, it's impractical, controversial and unlikely to solve the problem without some very careful planning.
(this excludes player backlash and that more than just nuke meta players use quickcast items).

AQ	Post #: 15

4/27/2019 1:08:24

Primate Murder
Member

quote:

Alternatively, you could just fix the HP;SP cost so that it offers a quickcast source but makes you feel the HP cost. I'd rather do that.

Ok, first? This would hurt people who actually use hp-cost items like Aberrant and Grimlord, or even Bloodblades over multiple turns - FD and FO beastmasters and warriors. Meta people would barely notice (since, you know, they don't take a single point of damage from enemy attacks) or, at the very most, transfer their Luck into End. The meta would remain unaffected. As I've already mentioned.

Second? This is not the thread to argue hp cost. There's a whole other thread for that. Use it.

quote:

However, in a real situation an item which recovers SP is probably going to be more effective than an item which boosts damage simply because you can do more with SP than just damage.

Good! Make people do other stuff with sp instead of stacking buffs and spamming nukes.

quote:

Are these worthy of as many action points as a quickcast skill. I'd personally each individual use isn't.

I'd argue otherwise. Pixel Ether regenerates over 20% melee in mp per a single use (not even counting LS) - that's more than what you get from a standard misc.

quote:

Alternatively, you could fail and gain nothing for a turn.

You mean skills that are intended to have 30-50% chance of inflicting could actually fail? Oh no, the horror!

quote:

controversial and unlikely to solve the problem without some very careful planning.

So... like any other balance-necessitated nerf in the game?

Please note that I'm not saying quickcast is the only problem with the current meta. Nukes need tweaking, stun cost needs to account for elecomp, and yes, the blood costs are currently a little ridiculous. I'm not saying that they aren't a problem.

I'm saying that the current treatment of quickcast is also a problem, a large problem, and that it needs solving.

Post #: 16

4/27/2019 4:26:40

CH4OT1C!
Member

quote:

@Primate Murder said@
Ok, first? This would hurt people who actually use hp-cost items like Aberrant and Grimlord, or even Bloodblades over multiple turns - FD and FO beastmasters and warriors. Meta people would barely notice (since, you know, they don't take a single point of damage from enemy attacks) or, at the very most, transfer their Luck into End. The meta would remain unaffected. As I've already mentioned.

Second? This is not the thread to argue hp cost. There's a whole other thread for that. Use it.

The rationale behind me bringing up essence orb is:
i) It's one of the key examples you use in your initial post:

quote:

@Primate Murder said@
Likewise, Essence Orb is the most broken item in the game. It renders moot all sp-regen items and leaves the player with no reason to actually use standard weapon attacks. The fact that the misc is technically balanced only makes it worse, since there's not much that can be done to change it.

quote:

@Primate Murder said@
In an absence of all other effects, quickcast would be quite reasonable - a direct conversion of your resources into buffs and debuffs, at reduced efficiency due to a lack of a turn cost. It does not, however, operate in absence. Quickcast stuns provide an unreasonable damage bonus via free EleComp, quickcast buffs stack on top of that and Purple Rain means that you gain a bonus to your resources magnitudes higher than the 50% melee that a 1/battle effect is supposed to be. Essence Orb is the cherry on top, serving as the ultimate enabler of the stun-meta.
I know it's tempting to continue to play the game on easy mode, but we're now a fourth of the way into year 2019, and you have to ask yourself - when was the last time you were actually excited over the equipment release (Frostval and Bloodzerker notwithstanding)? When was the last time you've actually struggled with a boss or tried new tactics? Stun meta and Essence Orb are killing the game, and their quickast nature is what allows them to do so.

There are two key characteristics of essence orb. One is the quickcast nature and two is the cost being HP. I'm arguing that you're addressing the wrong characteristic. It's very difficult to do that without mentioning the other.
ii) Also mentioned in your initial post, it's one of the key problems in this game as of right now. If we have to address quickcast, then this should be one of the major points of focus
iii) It's one thing to argue why one idea may be an unsuitable solution, but it's much more constructive to offer a different, better solution. I might have mentioned it repeatedly, but it's not like I've gone into any great detail. That's why the post is linked, so I don't have to repeat myself.
To sum up, in your first post you mention:

quote:

@Primate Murder said@
Is there an obvious flaw with my suggestions?
Do you have better solutions?

This is my response.

Addressing your initial point, I know you disagree with my other thread. With that said my response is:
Good, they should be nerfed because those items aren't mathematically balanced. It doesn't matter what build you are, they should be nerfed if not mathematically balanced. Your suggestion is based on the premise you think a certain group are too powerful. However, absolute balance should still prevail.

quote:

@Primate Murder said@
I'd argue otherwise. Pixel Ether regenerates over 20% melee in mp per a single use (not even counting LS) - that's more than what you get from a standard misc.

Yes, you make a fair point. However, we're not just talking about quickcast miscs here. Let's take another quickcast item, spectral chains. This offers 125% melee without costing a turn. Would that be worth the same number of action points even though it offers ~6 times the benefit of pixel ether per use. What about gandolphin? Those spells and the conversion offered by pixel ether are not the same thing, so they shouldn't cost the same number of action points to use.

quote:

@Primate Murder said@
You mean skills that are intended to have 30-50% chance of inflicting could actually fail? Oh no, the horror!

My point bringing this up is not to express horror at failing to gain any quickcast benefits for a turn. Instead, it was to highlight that there's a hard balance to strike with action point use. Too few and it essentially acts as quickcast removal. Too much and your idea is unlikely to work. Given the variety of quickcast items at your disposal, it make be nigh on impossible to achieve (especially if you don't differentiate how many action points each item is worth).
Your first post justified your attempts to nerf quickcast by suggesting they branched two issues in the game:

quote:

@Primate Murder said:
What's in common between both issues? Their quickcast effect.

Whilst you briefly reference the wider context with that justification, I don't believe you've considered it in enough detail. There are other potential sources. That's why I bring up HP costs, I think they're one of them. This response is a further symptom of this rhetoric. You make light of there being this chance for failure when, if considered, it's going to significantly influence the number of action points you give players. With that said, I'm glad that rhetoric is now changing with the mention of:

quote:

@Primate Murder said:
Please note that I'm not saying quickcast is the only problem with the current meta. Nukes need tweaking, stun cost needs to account for elecomp, and yes, the blood costs are currently a little ridiculous. I'm not saying that they aren't a problem.
I'm saying that the current treatment of quickcast is also a problem, a large problem, and that it needs solving.

Now, I've said neither quickcast skills aren't a problem nor aren't part of any solution. That's why I mentioned penalties in the first place - I don't think bringing them back to mathematical balance is a suitable penalty for their effect. For conversion items, a conversion tax similar to that suggested by @gavers would be totally reasonable. My major point of contention is I believe you're exaggerating their contribution to that problem. You've already admitted that they're not overpowered on their own. Maybe that's because they're just an additional layer when the root cause lies with other items. Item interaction is a big deal, that's one of the reasons why this post exists. However, it could be better solved using the law of diminishing returns and conversion taxes. As such, I think using one of two nuclear options is a completely disproportionate reaction. Not to mention, you've only broken one bridge when every other still stands.

There's another problem with such harsh options. It feeds into:

quote:

@Primate Murder said:
So... like any other balance-necessitated nerf in the game?

Yes, every nerf is controversial to some extent because players don't want to lose power. The only reason they wouldn't is to avoid challenge and frankly, challenge doesn't suit everyone. The difference here is you're going way too far. Backlash will be a lot higher with such a severe limit. Everything above also applies, meaning the benefits are limited. The cost:benefit ratio of such an update wouldn't be worth putting out in my eyes. Why risk such a reaction for little gain when you make less risky moves to greater effect? Doing the latter would be logical.

< Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 4/27/2019 5:09:40 >

AQ	Post #: 17

4/27/2019 5:26:14

Primate Murder
Member

If we absolutely need to turn this into a discussion on hp costs...

quote:

One is the quickcast nature and two is the cost being HP. I'm arguing that you're addressing the wrong characteristic.

Hp costs are not relevant to the meta.

To simplify: Meta casts Purple Rain, casts buffs/debuffs/stuns, casts Purple Rain and kills the monster in two turns. The player takes 0 damage from the monster.

As such, if you want to make hp costs a natural cap on the meta, you need to make the sum cost of quickcast skills worth 50% of player hp (to account for 2 battles).

Hp costs are an issue, yes, but they are not an issue that is relevant to the current argument.

quote:

they should be nerfed if not mathematically balanced

They are, in fact, mathematically balanced - balanced by the staff. Sure, if you pick and choose among all the available formulas you can find inconsistencies, but you can just as easily find inconsistencies in your solution.

quote:

Your suggestion is based on the premise you think a certain group are too powerful.

Yes. Yes, it is. Are you seriously going to argue that meta players are not too powerful?

quote:

Those spells and the conversion offered by pixel ether are not the same thing, so they should cost the same number of action points to use.

I think you mean shoudn't.

Either way, I disagree. Spectral Chains deal 125% melee because they already pay 125% melee in mp. Pixel Ether heals 20% mp, because it pays with 20% sp. They already have have an innate balance.

Efficient spells are a thing. So are damage bonus toggles that are below +100% - that does not make them unbalanced.

quote:

there's a hard balance to strike with action point use. Too few and it essentially acts as quickcast removal. Too much and your idea is unlikely to work. Given the variety of quickcast items at your disposal, it make be nigh on impossible to achieve

Not really.

Action Points are meant to be a nice bonus, a quirk, not something that's meant to be an automatic 'win' button.
- You want to use the points for a chance to stun the monster and use elecomp nuke? It's your right to play the game relying on RNG, I think it's called being a Rogue.
- You want to use them to regain resources faster to spam spells? It's a playstyle that has every right to exist, isn't this what a classic mage is like?
- You want to cast stat-booster and New Year's Surprise for sustained damage and accuracy? That's called being a warrior.

Action points are a way to nerf the meta without destroying the uniqueness of certain items.

And if you want to create a hard mathematic basis for each AP? Be my guest, There's something like 20 items total in the game that have quickcast effects. It may take a little time, but it's hardly impossible.

quote:

For conversion items, a conversion tax similar to that suggested by @gavers would be totally reasonable.

For the record, I'm not opposed to the conversion tax. I think it's very reasonable. It just doesn't affect the meta one way or another, so it has no bearing on my argument.

quote:

The cost:benefit ratio of such an update wouldn't be worth putting out in my eyes.

I think the current meta is a large problem.

You're free to disagree with me.

Post #: 18

4/27/2019 6:02:05

gavers
Member

Since you seem to be avoiding it like the plague, care to address what do you feel is the issue with my suggestions?
Just in-case you miss the propagating effects:
By taxing resource conversion you indirectly nerf Purple Rain, since baiscally what Purple Rain enables, is additional three resource bars to cast your abilities.
By introducing the resource conversion tax, you reduce the effectiveness of these resource bars, making the nuking meta slightly weaker.
In the same vein, elecomp is in turn being reduced in power, further reducing the strength of the nuking meta.
The correction of HP costs will hurt this meta even more considering on how slim of a margin it is running at the moment, as well as the Chieftain's Ironthorn balance.
With all these changes, you're expecting a big hit to the stun / nuke meta. Does it mean it'll eradicate it? Hardly. But it'll make it way more in line with the rest of the game.

As for your suggestion for action points, the idea is flawed in its nature. Your limiting resources are already your HP / MP / SP quoting you:

quote:

Either way, I disagree. Spectral Chains deal 125% melee because they already pay 125% melee in mp. Pixel Ether heals 20% mp, because it pays with 20% sp. They already have have an innate balance.

By introducing it you are introducing a whole new resource bar into the game, that has to be balanced and catered for appropriately, and that is not simple task.
That is why I think my two threads are a slightly more elegant solution, fitting into the current balance system.

So I'll ask once more, what do you feel my suggestions lack, and why do you feel that way?

Post #: 19

4/27/2019 6:51:52

CH4OT1C!
Member

quote:

@Primate Murder said:
Hp costs are not relevant to the meta.
To simplify: Meta casts Purple Rain, casts buffs/debuffs/stuns, casts Purple Rain and kills the monster in two turns. The player takes 0 damage from the monster.
As such, if you want to make hp costs a natural cap on the meta, you need to make the sum cost of quickcast skills worth 50% of player hp (to account for 2 battles).
Hp costs are an issue, yes, but they are not an issue that is relevant to the current argument.

To quote you from before:

quote:

@Primate Murder said:
Meta is 'most-efficient-tactic-available'

Essence orb is the best SP regenerating item we have by far. It's also commonly used by players capitalising on stunlock/nukes. You reference it numerous times in your first post. Therefore, what it costs is absolutely relevant to this discussion. That's not to mention other hp-cost items such as Angel of souls.
If you want to argue that the cost in HP is irrelevant because the battle lasts two turns, then:
i) it's not the only problem, I've stated this multiple times
ii) what if the battle lasts more than two turns? Bosses can survive, it becomes relevant.
iii) what if you want to regenerate SP after dumping it on other monsters. Essence orb becomes relevant.

quote:

@Primate Murder said:
Going further would go way out of this thread's remit. You know where to find my take on the costing. To that end,
They are, in fact, mathematically balanced - balanced by the staff. Sure, if you pick and choose among all the available formulas you can find inconsistencies, but you can just as easily find inconsistencies in your solution.

Feel free to point out the inconsistencies. I'll make sure to either explain them or correct them.

quote:

@Primate Murder said:
Yes. Yes, it is. Are you seriously going to argue that meta players are not too powerful?

Nope, putting my quote back into context, I'm saying that you must also be mindful of absolute balance as well.

quote:

@Primate Murder said:
Either way, I disagree. Spectral Chains deal 125% melee because they already pay 125% melee in mp. Pixel Ether heals 20% mp, because it pays with 20% sp. They already have have an innate balance.
Efficient spells are a thing. So are damage bonus toggles that are below +100% - that does not make them unbalanced.

You've paid for that damage output. What you haven't done is paid for that output in one turn. The difference being, one you end up with 20% melee in one turn, and the other you end up with 125% melee. To get the same output in one turn you'd require 6.5 actions points (assuming 1 point = 20% melee). Efficient/Inefficient spells work in a different way to quickcast principally because they cost a turn, so they're not a particularly good comparison.

quote:

@Primate Murder said:
Action Points are meant to be a nice bonus, a quirk, not something that's meant to be an automatic 'win' button.
- You want to use the points for a chance to stun the monster and use elecomp nuke? It's your right to play the game relying on RNG, I think it's called being a Rogue.
- You want to use them to regain resources faster to spam spells? It's a playstyle that has every right to exist, isn't this what a classic mage is like?
- You want to cast stat-booster and New Year's Surprise for sustained damage and accuracy? That's called being a warrior.

You don't need many quickcast skills to nuke an enemy off the face of the earth. How you balance that matters, especially as you aren't addressing the root problem directly.

quote:

@Primate Murder said:
I think the current meta is a large problem.
You're free to disagree with me.

I agree that the current meta has gone too far, I said as much in my initial post. With that said, your method is the equivalent of cracking an egg with a sledgehammer. It takes unnecessary effort, you have to be really careful not to smash the egg and you need other ingredients to make a good deal. In context:
Action points/removal have aren't worth the cost:benefit ratio, it's really hard to judge where to set the boundaries and it won't solve all of your problems (or indeed many of them).

AQ	Post #: 20

4/27/2019 8:23:21

Primate Murder
Member

@ Gavers

quote:

Since you seem to be avoiding it like the plague, care to address what do you feel is the issue with my suggestions?

I'm avoiding it because it is not relevant to the topic and I didn't want to derail the discussion even further. This thread was designed to examine the possibilities and downsides of nerfing quickcast effects. You have an entire thread to discuss your suggestions, several even.

On a more personal level I feel like it's a bandaid. Useful? Yes. As a matter of fact, I don't see why we can't use both your suggestions and my own. An absolute solution that precludes all others, though? No, I don't think you have quite reached that stage.

@Chaotic

quote:

it's not the only problem, I've stated this multiple times

Funny thing, so did I. It is not the only problem. It, however, is a problem, and a rather large one at that.

quote:

what if the battle lasts more than two turns? Bosses can survive, it becomes relevant.

The game is not build around bosses. Should they be accounted for? Yes. Should the entire balance discussion be centered around them? No. You might as well argue that we need to buff the player because he can't beat Carnax 1v1 without permarare items.

quote:

what if you want to regenerate SP after dumping it on other monsters. Essence orb becomes relevant.

Good. Allow me to repeat myself - I am not trying to make Essence Orb completely obsolete. I am trying to limit the contributions it makes to the meta, as well as make other sp-regen items useful. For example, if EO heals 20% melee and Werepyre passive heals 10% that's a 50% increase in efficiency.

quote:

I'm saying that you must also be mindful of absolute balance as well.

Absolute balance has always been tweaked to make the builds more equal. As a matter of fact, AQ's last Patch gave 100-proc weapons an extra 10% damage - a free bonus, since you don't take any more damage.

quote:

What you haven't done is paid for that output in one turn.

Are... you seriously making that argument in a thread on quickcasts? How do we currently pay for the dozen quickcast that we have? The player can use no quickcasts at all or use 10 quickcasts in a sigle turn.

We don't pay for the right to pay more.

quote:

it's really hard to judge where to set the boundaries

As with any balance update.

quote:

it won't solve all of your problems

It is not intended to solve all problems. It is intended to adress what I feel is the largest issue. When 90% of the battle's length is spent on the first turn, you know something needs to change.

< Message edited by Primate Murder -- 4/27/2019 8:38:40 >

Post #: 21

4/27/2019 8:49:15

gavers
Member

It is pretty relevant, since quickcast is not inherently too strong by any metric. I'm arguing my suggestions, along with a balance of Chieftain's Ironthorn would be a sufficient nerf.
The issue with your suggestion, as you've avoided replying to that as well, is that you add a completely new resource bar to be balanced around just for the sake of addressing a result of other imbalances in the game.
I feel like adding such a resource bar is a crude solution, and an overkill, where a simpler solution is possible. It's not a bandaid by definition. It's a standard that persists among many video games. The more you ask to trade, the harder you are penalized.

quote:

Absolute balance has always been tweaked to make the builds more equal. As a matter of fact, AQ's last Patch gave 100-proc weapons an extra 10% damage - a free bonus, since you don't take any more damage.

The only mathematically imbalanced weapon in the game (as the balance is currently centered around damage with a neutral armor) is the 0-proc weapon, receiving *1.08 instead of *1.1. The history of it, is that specials were originally imbalanced, so instead of nerfing them, everything was brought up to 110% Melee as a base, and subsequently nerfed back to 100% by the /1.1 so called "Balance Engine" multiplier.
Also, this is a weak argument, as absolute balance has been voided duo to either a lack of oversight, or time to implement simpler and balanced solutions (or outright changing the balance).

quote:

Are... you seriously making that argument in a thread on quickcasts? How do we currently pay for the dozen quickcast that we have? The player can use no quickcasts at all or use 10 quickcasts in a sigle turn.

We don't pay for the right to pay more.

And why don't you pay anything? The offender is found elsewhere. You have said it yourself. You are paying for something with Quickcast. You can't have it both ways.
You can't argue you pay nothing, and at the same time say your system is balanced since quickcast actions have a cost.

Chaotic have put it nicely. You're using a sledgehammer to crack an egg.

Post #: 22

4/27/2019 9:27:13

Primate Murder
Member

I'm suggesting a simple counter. You're suggesting changing hp costs, diminishing returns, trading taxes, elecomp... But I'm the one going overboard.

I see how it is.

Post #: 23

4/27/2019 9:49:04

gavers
Member

I'm suggesting working with the system.
HP costs are not due to a change, but a fix, since they don't have the correct cost. This has nothing to do with any suggested changes.
You're also trying to split apart one suggestion, as I'm suggesting two things that encompass more than just the issue with quickcast:

* Diminishing Returns
A way to fix stacking stauses regardless of quickcast abilities, since as it stands, they are too strong.

* Trading Taxes
A common way of "taxing" min-maxing strategies to make them less potent, again, removing some power from strong strategies that work regardless of quickcast.

Both solutions indirectly solve the quickcast "issue" as well, and they do it with simple to implement, and easy to balance methods, by simply adding a new standard to an item category.
I have said before, but your approach adds another layer on top of everything, and it's hard to even quantify realistically its effects. It's a shot in the dark, and is very distant from existing standards, making it unpredictable at best.

Post #: 24

4/27/2019 10:19:38

Primate Murder
Member

@ gavers

quote:

HP costs are not due to a change, but a fix, since they don't have the correct cost.

That's arguable. You can say that 100% melee costs (3k/20) =151 hp or (392/1.125) =348 hp. Both have merit and a mathematical basis. The main reason people are arguing for the second option is because we have no need of all that hp - the battles end too quickly.

quote:

Diminishing Returns. A way to fix stacking stauses regardless of quickcast abilities, since as it stands, they are too strong.

Really, this has very little to do with meta. The only status you stack with meta is control (via Love Potion + Mesmerize), and even that is usually unnecessary due to all the other quickcast buffs available. The ones hit the most would be effect beastmasters who rely on bleeds and burns to deal their damage - and they're pretty weak already.

quote:

it's hard to even quantify realistically its effects.

Honestly, it doesn't need to be some convoluted, sprawling thing with a dozen formulas:

Step 1. Make all quickcast effects use an action point.
Step 2. The player can only use 2 action points per turn.

Would it change things? Yes, of course. That's the whole point of suggesting things - you want change.
Would it unbalance things? Maybe temporarily, until folks find new ways to crush the monsters with minimum effort.

quote:

It's a shot in the dark, and is very distant from existing standards, making it unpredictable at best.

Right now, a meta player stuns the monster and doesn't get hit once during the entire battle. Tell me that's not wrong.

< Message edited by Primate Murder -- 4/27/2019 10:24:48 >

Post #: 25

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