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Z-finity Gauntlets Nerfs TOO Punitive?

 
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5/31/2019 18:15:33   
archmage777
Member

I don't know if this is the correct thread for this, for starters.

The patch yesterday that nerfed all the Z-finity Gauntlet items seems a bit too punitive. For example, the Space Gauntlet's Harden Space ability now costs 6x what it did before, and the Time Gauntlet's 1-use ability costs about 2.5x the SP it did. The Soul Gauntlet's 1-use ability give about 1/2 as much SP as before.

Maybe their abilities were too powerful originally, but having released them as such (and having had players like myself waste so many Z-tokens on them) it seems a bit unfair to nerf them so heavily! Is it possible to re-balance them to somewhere in between?

For example, the Space Gauntlet's power, instead of costing 6x the SP it did before, could cost 2x or 3x. The Time Gauntlet's power, instead of costing 2.5x, could cost 1.5x or 1.75x. The Soul Gauntlet's power could replenish 2/3 its original SP, instead of 1/2.

To get a few of these just costs SO many tokens which translates into a good deal of money. Maybe people who buy them in these last 3 days (before they're taken down) won't care, but I really do. I had been thinking about buying the last one with that June Z-token promo. I definitely won't now, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else, either.
DF  Post #: 1
5/31/2019 18:35:03   
Dreiko Shadrack
Member

They're fine, the changes are justified.

I hardly even feel the differences, to be perfectly honest.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 2
5/31/2019 22:43:34   
roobee
Member
 

I don't know whether the gauntlets are balanced. However, I agree it is bad form to nerf the gauntlets a few days before they go away. Especially since players had stated that the once/battle effect was valued at 50% and not 100% a while ago, but the gauntlets were only nerfed now. Ideally, gauntlets would be set to whatever game standards are and players who own them have the option of selling them back for full price. I don't know how tricky that would be to code though.
Post #: 3
6/1/2019 3:18:49   
Doomknight Arakos
Member

They are perfectly balanced (as all things should be).
AQ  Post #: 4
6/1/2019 5:17:29   
AliceShiki
Member

The gauntlets' original version was valued wrongly, right now they are properly balanced.

So... Nope, not punitive at all.
AQ  Post #: 5
6/1/2019 12:31:09   
battlesiege15
Member

I know the changes are justified but tbh I feel bad for those who spent many tokens on them. Sure it's only a nerf to the once per battle effects but that was one of the main highlights of the item.

But I guess you can always message the staff if you want your refund because tokn items are tracked.
AQ AQW  Post #: 6
6/3/2019 12:17:47   
The Wizard
Member

The only thing that bothers me, is the nerf to the soul guantlet. It feels strange to me that the AQ 16th anniversary cupcake's once per fight sp regen restores significantly more than the Soul's gauntlet's now. Shouldn't they have the same regen since they are both once per battle Sp regen effects (I'd argue if any Soul should be stronger since its a Z token item which are generally a few levels higher than a comparable standard item power level wise).
AQ  Post #: 7
6/3/2019 15:07:28   
sboy99
Member

quote:

They are perfectly balanced (as all things should be).
I Understood that reference
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 8
6/3/2019 19:31:35   
AliceShiki
Member

@The Wizard Z-token items are balanced by the exact same standards as gold items, they would never be mathematically stronger than a gold item at lv cap.

It's why every single top level Z-token item is lv 143, since it ends with the same PowLvl as a lv 150 gold item.
AQ  Post #: 9
6/3/2019 20:12:19   
majesticstar3800
Member

I'm just looking back at this discussion and admiring that there ARE meta builds and challenging void monsters. Good stuff AQ staff. I certainly didn't see those things 7 years ago when I played a good amount. Appreciate the effort!

Now, time for me to try and beat these things myself.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 10
6/4/2019 18:24:44   
Muchiha
Member

If I had one tiny critique to give, it would be related to the Power Gauntlet's HP Heal ability "Replenish Power" and how it will function after the HP/SP sweep.

As it stands, it heals 10% of your max HP.

Now this is where I can see this skill not performing as well as it currently does.

The AQ Staff are making changes to gameplay and that includes nerfs to END and HP in addition to halving our MP/SP bar. Right now at lvl 150 with 0 END, having 2958 HP, that would mean using the Replenish Power skill as it is in it's current form, I would heal 296 HP.

After the HP nerf to END and our HP bars, this skill would heal less AND taking into account the fact that our SP bars will be cut in half in addition to the extremely high SP cost to use it (666 SP for those that have the highest level gauntlet), gives players more reason to avoid using this heal altogether.


I propose a solution to this: make the Replenish Power skill into an "Overcharged SP spell" similar to the Overcharged Recovery SPell series: Click for the link --> http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=22265021

An Overcharged Spell deals 125% more Spell damage in exchange for having a cost equal to 140% of a spell cost.
For a cost comparison the highest level Overcharged spell costs 674 SP, vs Replenishing Power's 666 SP, so that's not too far off from the Power Gauntlet's heal cost.

So, expected spell damage *1.25

Then from there, add in the usual damage penalties to make it balanced:

*0.85 for it being Auto-hit
*0.9 for it being Always useful
*0.625 penalty for it being Quickcast

Would it be too much to ask that this suggestion use STR/DEX/INT whichever is highest as Main Stat for the Heal? It will fall in line with the other Gauntlets, seeing as the ones that inflict an effect on a monster uses Main Stat.

Despite the damage penalties stated above, this proposed solution would make a difference in the future when the amount of player base HP and the amount of HP the END stat will give for players will be lowered.

I am open to any additional ideas, suggestions, counter arguments brought along by any of my fellow players and Staff.

Thank you for taking the time to read this you guys, and have a nice day :)


< Message edited by Muchiha -- 6/4/2019 21:21:22 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 11
6/4/2019 20:17:11   
poopbum
Member

Honestly the only gauntlets to truly feel the nerf from the once per battle effect changes were soul and power gauntlets.

For power gauntlet's case, the HP recovery skill already has zero practical use to begin with even before the nerf. This is because the premise of healing health based on a flat % of player's max HP is a flawed one doomed to fail.(see also revenant and osiris shield)

This is because the healing would then only be higher if the player has trained up END, but at the same time players who train END have extra health that reduces the need for them to heal in the first place. As such this model of healing doesn't cater to any player builds.
I would like to second Muchiha's suggestion to rework the power gauntlet's healing into an actual QC heal spell.

Though I personally would prefer said healing spell to use stats based on the best of STR/INT/DEX, so it's similar to the save rolls of the other gauntlet abilities. As well as make the heal spell accessible to a greater variety of builds.

A once per battle QC heal spell with appropriate penalties and compensation(even if in the form of a SP discount) would actually be worth the SP paid then. Muchiha's proposed numbers with the overcharged shtick makes sense, though I think it's fine even without overcharged.

Being once per battle just means we can just lower the cost of the spell's SP cost by 50% of melee value. Which means it would regardless of being overcharged or not, still cost less SP than the currently underpowered health conversion ability.

On a less related note, Spectral Chains apparently still don't have any form of compensation for being a once per battle spell. Both the MC as well as the spell itself is actually once per battle only.
AQ  Post #: 12
6/4/2019 20:37:32   
Lineolata
Member
 

Considering that the current plans we've been told about for the balance engine reworks include giving us significantly less HP, 666 SP for 10% of our max HP is going to become even more painfully ineffective. I agree that it should use the same formula as an "inefficient" healing spell, whatever stat it ends up using- even with QC penalties I feel it'd be more worthwhile.
AQ DF  Post #: 13
6/4/2019 20:54:02   
ateras360
Member

I dont really have much to add other than what's said above, but I definitely support muchihas idea to turn powers heal type into a spell.
It would definitely solve most of the problems the misc currently has, and it would be a better grab before its gone.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 14
6/4/2019 21:11:00   
Phlox Lover
Member

I am thankful I did not pick these up, it seems. Lovely.
Post #: 15
6/4/2019 23:04:00   
Drak
Member

Lol. They need to release ztoken items in a completed state. I love this game and will always support it by buying ztokens, but am getting pretty tired of items being changed after players already bought them
Post #: 16
6/5/2019 0:08:43   
Kurtz96
Member

quote:

Lol. They need to release ztoken items in a completed state. I love this game and will always support it by buying ztokens, but am getting pretty tired of items being changed after players already bought them

This has happened a few times across all AE game and it brings up and issue: should spending real money affect the ability to change items after purchase. DF ran into this problem with DoomKnight.
More broadly there is the question of whether you should be able to sell and adjusted item for full price as it is no longer the item you purchased.
An example is the Void Dragon Queen painting: for the people who bought the painting after beating the original non-nerfed boss, should they be able to sell back the painting at full price after the boss was nerfed. It is technically no longer the same monster they bought the painting to face.

Like if you bought a car, then 5 days later Toyota can around and halved the fuel mileage because it was too good and the auto industry wants to bring it back to the industry standard. Do you have the right to ask for your money back since it is no longer the car you paid for and the feature that most interested you has been removed?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 17
6/5/2019 1:12:01   
Spiritual Guardian
Member

One thing I learned playing AQ is to never buy any z-token item until the bitter end, especially if it seems too good to be true. Unfortunately though, not everyone has the time to check nearly every single post hoping that they get a staff answer or they may have RL things to do, so those players buy the z-token items early knowing that they won't be back until said items are gone. The timing of the gauntlets nerf indeed came at a horrible thing, but I'd be lying if I said that I didn't see this coming.
Post #: 18
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