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RE: Let's Design Some CEBs! \(^^)/

 
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6/9/2019 12:04:12   
AliceShiki
Member

Sorry, I totally lost your point, I'm terrible at reading gigantic blocks of text without proper spacing... Can you edit it into a few paragraphs?
AQ  Post #: 26
6/11/2019 1:48:40   
Red Blood
Member

Mostly was just a bit of a jumble of ideas of how to make the idea a bit less of an instant nuke mob with some special things based on the lore of a doppelganger signaling someone's death, and then another creature that takes the form of a collector of the dead along with the first person to die in a year. Short version is a bit of high blocking chance, soft damage cap with either a constant draining of your hp bar when you are all but facing a entity of death nearly tailor fit in your image. A good portion of the former post had details of myth and some concerns how a more Ankou styled version would fit in given the creature normaly had some helpers, and struck me rather similar to a certain Lich challenge fight if it was taken as a mob encounter rather 1 on 1.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 27
6/12/2019 11:36:29   
battlesiege15
Member

Wonder if there is a way to have a monster 'Deflect' stuns. Or maybe a 'Sloth' status. A tank monster that gets much stronger the lower its HP and the more turns it spends not acting.

For the stun meta, why not just have more pack monsters? They can be a little unfair if it's multi elemental monsters but you can't really effectively stun a pack of 4 monsters at once.
AQ AQW  Post #: 28
6/12/2019 12:00:49   
J9408
Member

^Yes I wonder about this as well. How come there are barely any pack type bosses?
Post #: 29
6/12/2019 12:10:55   
Primate Murder
Member

A pack of yourselves?
AQ DF  Post #: 30
6/12/2019 12:28:54   
Red Blood
Member

I mean for the Ankou the helpers were normally just undead but suppose a pack of chosen would be a challenge fight XD
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 31
6/12/2019 17:34:39   
Galactic Assassin X
Member

I agree with more group encounters. If something like the old Darkovia Moglin Village quests was remade into one quest then most of the battles could be condensed into group battles. It's an excellent example of duplicate encounters that could be repurposed into groups.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 32
6/12/2019 20:20:38   
Lineolata
Member
 

A combination of Night of 100 Ninja and Challenge Wicked King's gimmicks might be nice. Each member of the pack that spawns adds another stack of a permanent status, increasing its power. A DoT is too similar to WK, but a stat debuff, choke, or blind could all work nicely.
AQ DF  Post #: 33
6/13/2019 2:11:19   
AliceShiki
Member

@Battlesiege Deflecting Stuns? Like Freedom and Boss Boost? Those work to some extent for sure, but a boss that takes a few turns to do anything would most likely be nuked to death unless it had at least 6 digits of HP.... Even then it might not be enough.

Pack monsters like Wolf Pack would be great though, it was a pretty challenging boss back in its day, though nowadays it's trivial... Still, packs like Void Dragon Queen and Mogdin were made some time back, and I think the new Starslayer was too? So it's not like staff doesn't make pack CEBs... They can be fun nonetheless~

@Lineolata That would be nuts! There's 100 of them and you can only kill 3 per turn at best, even celerity doesn't help, nor do stuns since they need to have their turn to actually summon more ninjas! >.<

I mean, the minimum amount of actual turns this fight would take is 34, and you wanna make them stronger each time one dies? What's the expected way players are supposed to beat it then!? xD


I'd much rather see something like a Revamped Legion tbh, would be more feasible to say the least~
AQ  Post #: 34
6/13/2019 17:06:05   
Red Blood
Member

Starslayer wasn't really a pack mob it just had the moglin acting as another form of attack rather than it's stand alone mob. But yeah if you gave a pack another sort of bonus based on them dying I'd make sure that capped out rather quickly, and having the Legion way of a pack taking a field rather than line up of 3 would how I'd suggest they handle a pack. I liked the 100 Ninjas after all but having to grind that out via 3 at a time with void boss lvl stats/ effects would be more of an endurance fight. Still would need a bit of a spin on Legion mob type rather than just more attacks seeing Legions lose a lot of punch once you start being able to do true damage, but sure that could be rather fun to plan out.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 35
6/13/2019 18:36:29   
Lineolata
Member
 

@Alice- slowly and carefully, of course. The damage output's likely to be low since it's a pack of many lower-leveled monsters and they sacrifice some damage to pay for the status, but even a battle of pure attrition gets boring eventually. Upon further consideration, I'd want to involve some way for the player to mitigate the effects of the statuses- like how you can heal the Wicked King to remove stacks of Haunted. Possibly forgoing a shield/pet/guest for a turn would reduce the effects of the status, although that feels more limiting than just requiring a certain action.
AQ DF  Post #: 36
6/13/2019 20:34:40   
AliceShiki
Member

@Red Blood Oooooh, I didn't know that, Starslayer was gone before I could attempt it, so... >.>

And yeah, having something that worked like Legion, but did more than just dish out meager amounts of dmg would be neat for sure~

@Lineolata Oh, I see I see, thought the monster would hit pretty hard because I imagined it as lv 150... Like this it could work, but I think you're right in having some way of removing the status would be a nice thingy.

Stuff like Geocastellum boss also comes to mind with statuses that make the boss stronger if you don't do anything about it.
AQ  Post #: 37
6/14/2019 0:14:41   
Red Blood
Member

Yeah it was minor update that kinda made him a dual element mob so a 13 energy resist didn't make it too easy honestly hoped it would do more than it did in the fight.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 38
6/14/2019 10:04:19   
battlesiege15
Member

@Alice: By Deflecting, I meant like actually deflect it so instead of the monster getting stunned, the player get's the status effect instead.

I think that Ultimon was a fun battle way back then. There was an insta kill mechanic on him right?

And yeah, I know pack monsters aren't uncommon per say but I meant larger Packs. 4+ like a mini army.
AQ AQW  Post #: 39
6/14/2019 20:34:21   
AliceShiki
Member

@Red Blood Well, he also stops you from using miscs, right? Dual element mobs that don't allow miscs to reduce the 2nd element are quite mean IMO... >.>

@battlesiege15 Ultimon didn't one-shot, he just had a somewhat strong nuke that happened 1% of the time, and it was compensated by his other attacks dealing a bit less damage than normal.

Still, it wasn't too hard to survive his nuke, so... He was a pretty easy boss IMO... >.>

Bigger packs could be interesting, especially if each mob had a different element and stuff~
AQ  Post #: 40
6/15/2019 1:19:09   
Red Blood
Member

Yeah the mic thing was a carry over from his prior version, and yeah could see the issue if you weren't wearing something like the Starslayer set already.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 41
6/15/2019 19:01:26   
CH4OT1C!
Member

Me and @Rafiq worked together to slightly modify his updated War boss to make it even better. I think it turned out rather well
AQ  Post #: 42
6/15/2019 19:47:14   
J9408
Member

^Unless he has high HP, it sounds like he can be taken down with brute force. Assuming the player can act quick enough.

However the Status "Corruption" sounds great!
Post #: 43
6/15/2019 20:39:36   
AliceShiki
Member

@CH4OT1C! Well, it seems to heavily encourage nuking tbh, like... Spending turns heal looping will only make him stronger and stuff, so it feels like the optimal strategy for him is to just hit his face as hard as you can.

And considering he hits with Darkness only, yet has 50% on all resistances, this is as simple as sitting in Angel of Souls with a Darkness Shield/Misc and spamming the Armor Skill... >.>
Or well, any Darkness armor with a darkness locked skill actually, AoS is just the first that came to mind.
AQ  Post #: 44
6/16/2019 5:45:47   
CH4OT1C!
Member

Well noticed.
Now, I don't mean to be picky here, but the title of your thread is "Let's Design Some CEBs! \(^^)/". Although you qualify anti-nuke bosses in your first post, it does not immediately read "let's make it difficult for meta players". Whilst I'm not adverse to that by any means (I happen to like the challenege), countering one type of playstyle is only catering to that setup. If we are to design CEBs, we should be trying to counter all builds. That includes those players in defensive, DoT, blocking, spoonzerkers(@Khaiin has some amazing builds) and every other type of build, not just the nuke-meta.

Now, you might counter by suggesting to make a boss that's challenging to all playstyles at once. That isn't a simple feat. The reason players are so outrageously powerful with nukes is because they've specialised in that setup (as well as having the gear to go about doing so). Making a boss that's challenging to everyone means keeping that boss a generalist, not weak to any playstyle in particular. That raises two issues:

i) It can't focus all of it's abilities into once specific setup, making it difficult to have the same kind of efficiency as players
ii) If it is challenging against all players, what is your reliable method of killing the thing? Realistically, there needs to be a counter.

It gets even more difficult when you don't want that boss to have generic effects (the reason those effects are generic are because they're one of the more reliable ways of being both generalist and effective). You also want the boss to have a unique theme. This combination is extremely difficult to pull off. D.U.M somewhat did so (though he can still be nuked and there's controversy that he's bugged). As for others, and I bring up the void dragon queen as an example of this, were totally butchered. Her original theme was destroyed and the damage cap effect didn't work at all.

The upshot: Why are we trying to make a boss difficult for all when it's much easier (on all fronts) to specialise one against certain threats? Inevitably, that specialisation comes at a cost - you need multiple bosses that each counter against all specific builds. The updated war boss @Rafiq and I designed was brought to this thread as a counter for defensive setups. The main idea behind it is that standard nukes are the single best method of victory. It does somewhat limit the nuke meta. You can't abuse PR status setup unless they apply to you because War will corrupt and inflict them upon you. For an uprepared meta player, a single ill-advised mesmerise on the first turn could result in three free turns for war, an offensive boss when you're sat in gear that's not ideal for defence (good luck surviving that). Much like the ALX boss, unprepared meta players will be caught off guard.

However, the boss is clearly specialised to shut down stalling defensive setups. The damage counters ensure even if he only strikes with darkness, you cannot indefinitely heal-loop your way to victory. Nor can you rely on poisons/burns to deal the damage for you. It requires you to play with damage in mind (like for example, the 100-proc blood guns that have recently been released). Alternatively, the Neko skills (or indeed utilising damage skills/spells in any defensive darkness armour). The point is to draw defensive players into a more offensive playstyle in this fight. If you could DoT/heal-loop everything in FD, that's no more a challenge than meta players being able to nuke every boss to death.

Summing this all up, I think we've become rather obsessed with the nuke meta being as powerful as it is. I'm not trying to downplay the problem, we need bosses with creative ways of limiting that setup (as I have already suggested in this thread). However, we should not forget to challenge/shut-down other playstyles against certain bosses too, for they also require a challenge. The same motivation was behind the creation of my Seth boss.


On a side note, my Mew-three boss punishes anyone not defending at the start of the battle by setting up and nuking before the player can respond. It always beats meta players to dishing out the nukes, which I think is a pretty novel way of dealing with the problem. That same post has Andlu, which forces you into firing at least four nukes before you can even hope of beating him.

< Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 6/16/2019 5:52:51 >
AQ  Post #: 45
6/16/2019 8:47:00   
Rafiq von den Vielen
Member

Yes, our War basically forces you to be more offensive than usual if you are playing a defensive build (as I am, matter of fact). Yes, nuking him works to an extent. Do you want to know why?

Because I actually tried to adhere to the rules of your thread. It's a challenging mob completely shutting down a certain playstyle (as CH4OT1C! said, good luck if you actually try to play him defensively or heal loop), but at the same time punishes basically every build for what we do. Nuke builds (yes, I know most players are nukers nowadays but think of the players who do not nuke for one reason or another!) will need to waste almost all of their resources to defeat War once. He bleeds you and your bars dry. You can win, you'll just have to make adjustments. Was Void Dragon Queen so different? She basically enforced a certain kind of playstyle. Our concept of War doesn't do anything different.

If you try to heal loop him, you will die. That's not foreshadowing, that's not guessing, that's a spoiler.
If you try to block or stunlock him, you will die because of his effects.

War counters defensive play because of his very nature (heck, he's the demipower of killing a lot of people quickly and efficiently!), but he also punishes nuking by bleeding resources dry. He's difficult to beat, very difficult even I'd say, but he's perfectly fine. And most of all, flavorful. Nothing like a flavorful boss to an intense storyline.
Post #: 46
6/16/2019 9:27:26   
J9408
Member

^That makes sense. War is a very aggressive individual after all.
Post #: 47
6/16/2019 17:54:56   
Galactic Assassin X
Member

@CH4OT1C!

Yeah, that's why I designed my CEB the way I did. Perhaps I didn't clarify it enough, but all the attacks and heals by the boss are % based. You can't just OP your bars or damage and expect to win quickly - the boss can only be beaten by recognizing his patterns and attempting to best counter his scrambling of your menu. He's not impossible, but it requires the player to pay attention and play the long game, being smart in order to win.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 48
6/16/2019 18:31:43   
CH4OT1C!
Member

@Galactic Assassin X: To be honest, I'm not really sure what your boss is attempting to accomplish.

The premise looks interesting. A boss with a set number of potions could really mess with the player if utilised correctly. I also like the idea of stealing potions from the boss. However, the execution is a bit messy.
i) You state that learning the patterns of this boss is important for victory, but don't state what pattern/conditions are required to activate the use of a certain attack
ii) With "Can use attacks that sacrifice one bar for another (its HP for more MP, MP for more SP, etc)", you haven't actually stated what attacks the boss can use which consume its MP/SP, only that it can heal them
iii) You have draining resources using DoT. This would certainly restrict long-term play.
iv) This is rather key to your argument: how can it scramble your inventory if it's already dead. You haven't provided any countermeasure to an instantaneous nuke.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a potion master. Throwing confusion potions, scrambling your menu etc. All of it sounds very interesting. I just think the execution needs a bit messy. What are its attacks? When will it use them? What will they cost? These basic logistics are necessary for making this boss something dangerous. Right now, Alice is right when she says the fight could be trivialised with by stealing potions.
AQ  Post #: 49
6/16/2019 19:29:43   
AliceShiki
Member

@CH4OT1C! @Rafiq von den Vielen Oh, I won't deny that bosses that challenge the defensive playstyles can be just as important as the bosses that challenge the offensive playstyles... Rather, War doesn't force you to nuke him, but just to play more offensively than normal, which actually makes him a pretty interesting boss IMO.

It's just that my motivation to make this thread was mainly to think of how would people design bosses that can actually be hard for the nuke meta, because... Well, I think it's actually pretty hard for staff to create interesting bosses that can still stop people from nuking without using very cheap mechanics like the Hard Damage Cap and Freedom Status.

It's a lot easier to make a boss that is a challenge to defensive playstyles on the other hand (as in, it just needs to deal enough damage to make Heal Looping Hard, or it can inflict disease, or it can lock your misc, or it can reduce your heal resistance...), so I was more curious on what would people come up that could be challenges for the meta players~

But really, I liked the design of the War Boss, I think I'd have fun fighting against it~
AQ  Post #: 50
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