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Guns to Strength

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6/22/2019 21:03:23   
.Lord Ginger.
Member

I have said this before, but now I think it is clear.

Focus builds are cruising right now, and that's not a bad thing, but Strength builds are dead, and that's not a good thing.

Having guns improve with Strength does two things firstly.

Improves strength builds, yay.

Nerfs focus/tank builds, also a yay for now.

Even with Kartherax (which may still be a problem), strength will have another way to do high damage, even though this gun can still be deflected, it is something to help.

Even if Guns to Dexterity makes sense because with the skill of a gun and whatever, strength builds will be better, and that should be one of the goals right now.

Tank builds are too strong, and strength builds are too weak.

Now, I'm still suggesting the smoke nerf, because I do not think it was enough, especially since the passive armors were nerfed, which basically makes the smoke nerf non-existent.

With focus BH having an overpowered smoke, strength builds will still be blocked forever, which won't help revive these builds.

What will keeping guns to dexterity do for dex builds? Currently, nothing.
AQW Epic  Post #: 1
6/23/2019 2:37:50   
Foulman
Member

Dex guns are the only thing keeping Dex builds alive. I've seen a few more dex builds running around after the update and this would absolutely ruin them.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 2
6/23/2019 8:09:00   
.Lord Ginger.
Member

Any dex build made (besides jugger) is inferior to a focus one. Dex skills definitely need a buff, regardless of any sidearm change. If we change dex skills to actually be good, would you be down for this change?
AQW Epic  Post #: 3
6/23/2019 10:21:39   
Foulman
Member

Yes I would
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 4
6/24/2019 19:09:00   
Mother1
Member

The only way I would even think to support this is if Dex itself got a good buff. sidearms are literally the only thing keeping Dex builds alive outside of the hunters thanks to all the nerfs done to it thanks to stupid botters.
Epic  Post #: 5
6/25/2019 13:32:47   
leo07123
Member

I totally disagree for several reasons:
(a) As Foulman said this Dex association with Gun is the only way which is keeping Dex builds alive
(b) Let us assume if Strength buff Gun, then it will totally dis-balance the game. How? Here it goes, just think of BM with Strength built, BM can kill an enemy in three turns i.e. Fireball (which doesn't have any warm up now), Gun and Infinity Core. Game Over. This is applicable for Hunter Classes but Mercenary, Tactical Mercenary and Tech Mage will get hindered.
(c) I don't see any point of giving further buff to strength builds because it will alter the entire game and will create problem and also will further urge for new balance. Already the current Balance Updates have destroyed the entire strength of Epic Duel.
Epic  Post #: 6
6/25/2019 14:10:00   
Armagedon2018
Member

and how is your idea to help strengh?. Gun can be deflected, infinity core blocked.
AQW Epic  Post #: 7
6/25/2019 15:39:54   
.Lord Ginger.
Member

@Leo

With the guns to strength change, we can:

1) Make dex skills do more damage and be viable, therefore strength will have its counter, dex.
2) If need be, nerf a few skills like fireball, a tad. so the damage output isn’t too much, easy solution.

One of the only downsides of this, I can see is the Azrael’s Punisher, but it still can be deflected, and may not even be a problem.

Blocks already happen enough to where there are roughly 0 strength builds running around.
Dex builds are so bad as they are, the major change to dex needs to be the damage the skills do, because not even good gun damage helps (and they get deflected a lot, like strength would)

Since there are so many focus builds, dex builds get shredded anyways, regardless.

Kartherax still exists so there is also another counter, and this change would indirectly nerf Kartherax a tad, probably not enough, but still.

I am not sure how you see strength builds being fine when there are no strength builds and strength builds are really awful.

I also don’t see how you think dex builds are fine either, since there are hardly any of those either.

One of the major problems when the strength primary was good was the debuffs were ridiculous. Smoke was a solid -40 and malfunction was also, and there was almost no drawback. With any nerfs to these skills, strength would not overrun the meta.

Take a look at focus builds, they are almost all you see, doesn't that make you a bit sad?
AQW Epic  Post #: 8
6/25/2019 22:04:31   
NDB
Member

I think it's pretty clear that moving gun to strength would drastically improve your experience playing as a strength build and it probably wouldn't be too overpowered since gun is the same damage as primary (weaker if you're using a sword). Just a shame that dex will be completely killed off. It's kind of weird that blocks ruin strength but dex is nowhere near viable as a build either. The way that is now is suicide for build diversity, so I suppose we may as well sacrifice one to make the other better. Still, finding a way to buff dex skills and caster builds in general would probably still need to be a priority if the change is made.

Weird idea, but maybe if gun goes to strength, some of the extra effects of support (like crit and rage) could go to dex to help buff it, and then support could give a universal damage increase since that seems fitting for support as a stat. Not sure if people would be up to it though since it might be really weird at first.

Also... the idea about Lucky Strike affecting strength skills and not just strikes would really help, so still waiting on that I guess.
Epic  Post #: 9
6/25/2019 22:26:49   
leo07123
Member

@Armagedon2018
Okay I can agree with that view that Gun and Infinity Core can be deflected and blocked. But do you think that it does the same all time? Or based on LUCK factors? If you ask me this question "HOW IS YOUR IDEA TO HELP STRENGTH?"

My answer will be little difficult and kinda rude. What just happened to 1.7.25, ED Dev killed Support Build. Isn't it? Now tell me where will you find feasibility of Support build when 90% of the Skill Tree got no useful support Skills. Then I would ask this question to you "HOW IS YOUR IDEA TO HELP SUPPORT?". So the solution is like what ED have done to the support let it be the same for strength i.e. Auxiliary Primary damage rate improved slightly to encourage Support Strength builds. Why there is a need to give special consideration to Strength? Well, as far as the NPCer Modes are concern you do consider it. Between, I don't think any head and tail for this change.

@Lord Ginger
See there it goes, what are you actually doing is giving SPECIAL buff to one particular STUFF i.e. GUN you have to change the entire game. That's what I have talked about earlier. Ok justtell who would really take pain in changed 3-5 skills for just 1 particular buff. This would be really out of the sense and impractical.

Okay you talk about Deflection and the rate is pretty high which is 35%. Lets assume Cyber Hunter, Tech Mage and Tactical Mercenary, Bounty Hunter and Blood Mage they need minimum 43 Tech to get their respective skills like Plasma Armor (which requires 43 Tech), Reroute (43 again) and Blood Lust (34). Most of the so called essential skills are Tech Based and in order to use it player need to buff his/her TECH so, now tell me what would be the chance of getting DEFLECTION when playe will almost use either 43+35 or 34+35 Technology. In this case you can further suggest increase in Deflect Ratio, this will eventually hurt the game as it is still hurting the game right now.

I wonder if you see block is happening frequently, as far as I play 46k Solos and 4760 Teams our of which 5k Solo and 300 Team is recent, I hardly blocked and even if I blocked was due to Smoke + Shadow Art as Bounty Hunter but as other class just forget about it. Other than Hunters, rest of the classes are pathetic in blocking. Unless you have high dex. When 1.7.25 was tried out 155+35+4+4+4+3 Dex build for Tech Mage and you know what I block 0 times. Even I had a word with Testers, they said LUCK. So, I don't know where this point comes from.

Well, Kartherax is a valid option but what about those who don't have it? I don't have it? Low rank player wouldn't have it. We have to think something viable man.

If you say Strength builds are really awful then I would say this Support builds are also really awful. Atleast after 1.7.26 update Blood Mage can use Strength Build because they got Deadly Aim rooted to Strength. The point is Strength Build only make sense in Solo Battles for Fast Wins and Epic Duel never happened to be happy with fast wins. If you remember NW posts long back in 2016-2017.

See I know its sad but its a hard reality bruh! Why ED promoted F5 build is due to Long Battles. Check Leaderboard, where players use to score 500 - 1000 wins a day are now getting 100-150. Don't you think this is pathetic? Why so? Because they need slow run battles and long battles. If we would use our brains then I wouldn't play or do any slow or long battles for reasons (a) Same OLD LESS CREDITS and (b) Same OLD LESS EXPERIENCE. So what's new in this? Where I use to make 200 wins I got 200*12 = 2400 xp and now I can get max to max 100*12 = 1200xp. Exact drop of 50% on investing same time and same energy.

ED need to think upon those criteria and make essential changes. Long battles are not feasible and focus 5 is eventually meant for that only.

I'm not criticizing anybody suggestion/s but the fact is look for FUTURE, Devs have already led a bad foundation to ED with changes they have made recently. Look at the players they are dropping and eventually I will drop one day because it's getting boring. I'm speaking as a true core fan of Epic Duel not in a spirit of Crticizing anyone. Playing sense 2010 and even before, but Epic Duel is not the same as it was. So any false move will further reduce the population and I will never want to play Epic Duel for the sake of NPC and JUGGERNAUT, which I can't do at all cost.

< Message edited by leo07123 -- 6/25/2019 23:19:17 >
Epic  Post #: 10
6/25/2019 23:22:07   
.Lord Ginger.
Member

Do you know what Guns to Dex really did for the PvPers?

Here’s what it did: Nerf strength build-> buff focus build
Here’s what changing guns back to strength would do: Buff strength build->nerf focus build
Why? Because in the end dex is still dead, and support sidearm is usually a joke anyway.

Yes, dex needs a humongous buff, but so does strength and support, obviously

I never said anything about the deflection rate, and even to get the max deflection rate requires like a 125 tech difference anyways, but deflections still do happen and can turn the tide of battle. I don't know why I'd want to get deflected all the time anyway if my gun was moved to strength, that wouldn't help me at all now, would it?

In early Omega, we had strength builds that lasted more than 10 turns, and battles weren’t that fast really.
This was when 50+35 was the norm, not this 97+35 and 0 dex stuff that we have now. And maybe, you could even do a 81+35 strength build if you were feeling frisky back then.

The goal of this suggestion is to try and make ED fun like it was in the past by making changes that were in the past, Leo. That's MY goal.

I know not everyone has Kartherax, there are other options that can counter Strength builds besides just this. Think of a build with higher HP, perhaps intimidate, could be a Blood Mage, or you could do a BH with a decent smoke screen, or maybe a merc with intimidate and surge, or even a TLM with mineral armor.

Even with the most recent update with BM and deadly aim, strength builds don’t exist, and support builds hardly do. Support builds are supposed to be fast, so that’s fine.
Strength builds can either be quick or slow depending how you make them, honestly.
With the proper nerf to debuffs along with all the other suggestions that (I could be wrong) could bring better balance to the game, strength can be viable, and won’t be annoyingly short.

Five Focus is boring sometimes and something needs to happen with balance. If you want to keep this meta how it is, then you are not looking out for the game’s health.
This is also a reason why I think ranks should go, for the health of the game.
There can be other changes, of course, but everytime strength has been brought back (with basically just a primary buff), people have complained and got it nerfed.

Having strength where it is right now is a joke, and as someone who wants to enjoy the game and help balance it, strength/dex/support/tech all need buffs, and focus does not.

I’ve already thought about making dex skills better and I hope that is implemented, and maybe the 100 diminishing return for tech and dex needs to be removed for this to happen.



AQW Epic  Post #: 11
6/28/2019 13:26:30   
leo07123
Member

I have nothing much to say, the only things is if this happens I can assure it will harm the entire game again like that of 1.7.25. Moreover, it will again become a kind of unfair Stat arrangement where:

a) Strength will buff two things = Primary and Gun
b) Dex = Nothing
c) Technology = Robot
d) Support = Aux

Why don't you think of having some skills that improves with Strength instead of Gun. This will be benefical and I have already suggested that in my Balance Update where I tried to give emphasis on Strength Improving Skills.


Epic  Post #: 12
6/28/2019 14:45:52   
Armagedon2018
Member

Took in consideration @ginger. In that case, dextery skills will have an important buff @leo
AQW Epic  Post #: 13
6/28/2019 18:48:40   
Mother1
Member

Your suggestion was made a reality once again.
Epic  Post #: 14
6/28/2019 22:27:47   
leo07123
Member

@Armagedon2018

Yeah Dex have been considered a greatest BUFF ever. I hope you will use dex built with 155+35+4+4+4+3 Dex and when you never going to get a block or win. We start blaming luck not Game Engine haha...

Congrats Ginger for making Strength buff to Gun.
Epic  Post #: 15
6/28/2019 23:42:36   
Armagedon2018
Member

This is not a competition of suggestion guys. Come on!!! . The suggestion that gun improves with strengh were wanted by many players since long time ago. We decided to change it this time.
AQW Epic  Post #: 16
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