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Is there any chance of Old lean armors being updated?

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10/13/2019 2:33:45   
Kurtz96
Member

So I just learned that armor skills like WKZ and HSVV do not count as weapon nukes. That and the discussion about War right now and how WKZ is not balanced properly has me thinking if these old lean armors might be updated/balanced.
Are there any plans for this to happen?
Is it even possible?
And would it be a good thing or will it only widen the gap between mages and everything else?

< Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 10/14/2019 3:10:13 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 1
10/13/2019 3:28:05   
Primate Murder
Member

As it stands, old standard armors gain op levels of elecomp, get elecomp to damage (like spell-based skills) but remain boostable by CIT (like weapon based). This means that any update would heavily nerf them - like the Ebil Knight, which was a modern darkness revamp of White Knight.

That said, I don't think it would affect the divide between warriors and mages that heavily - already combos like Bloodzerker /Beast From + Morningstar Cross deal damage comparable to old standard armors, and imbues help diversify the elements. It would make things harder for f2p / non-meta players, though.


It is possible, and it has been done before, but I don't think we have to worry about the staff updating old leans any time soon - they've already got a huge backlog of stuff to implement, so we can all enjoy op and unbalanced nature of old leans for months or even years to come.
AQ DF  Post #: 2
10/13/2019 12:32:38   
AliceShiki
Helpful!


 Depends on the item. For example, stuff like Nemesis, Twilight, Taladosian and Overlord are in the plans to be updated, as IMRy did say she wanted to go through all Yearly MC sets at some point and put them on modern standards.

Stuff like HSVV on the other hand have lower chances because... Well, they're lower priority, might get it one day though.

WKZ on the other hand? Well... I'm not gonna say it's impossible that it will be revamped, but it is unlikely staff will spend some time updating an old token gear when they know it will just annoy most of its users. So it's highly unlikely it will ever get updated. Staff in general shies away from updating token gear... Unless it's something egregious like boosters.
AQ  Post #: 3
10/13/2019 14:03:40   
Kurtz96
Member

quote:

That said, I don't think it would affect the divide between warriors and mages that heavily - already combos like Bloodzerker /Beast From + Morningstar Cross deal damage comparable to old standard armors, and imbues help diversify the elements. It would make things harder for f2p / non-meta players, though.

Bloodzerker /Beast From + Morningstar Cross combos deal comparable damage (but still a little less that) WKZ, which is weaker than Bloodmage though. So a gap already exists.
I do agree that is would be harder for F2P players though.

It does bring up the question: what is the strongest balanced armor nuke? Is it Torontosaurus?

Obviously the staff have a lot on their plate so balancing these old armors might be lower priority. I question was more should they be updated. AQ is not a multiplayer game so "balance" is not as big an issue as you are not competing against other people. So is it worth stirring up a hornets nest of complaint for a bunch of old armors that don't actually do any more damage than the modern bloodmage armors. Is upsetting players in the name of game balance (which is needed in games like LoL and Overwatch) worth it in a single player game like AQ.

< Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 10/13/2019 14:10:50 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 4
10/13/2019 23:26:29   
Primate Murder
Member

The difference between WKZ and Bloodzerker + Cross is not as big as you'd think, and both should be stronger than the Bloodmage nukes, at least according to this skill power rating.

Torontosaurus should be somewhere around that level, making it one of the best armors in the game for warriors.
AQ DF  Post #: 5
10/14/2019 1:47:15   
Kurtz96
Member

I'll have to keep that page in mind. But these are the numbers I got from LegendaryAsh:

Bloodmage Elecomp*Cutlass*Dual Poe*Accuracy(Spell base+Int stat dmg+Luk stat dmg)
1.84977*1.28125*1.45425*(1.5+3*.385*452/200+2*.115*250/200) = 1515.745% melee with 1.25 BtH excess
White Knight Elecomp*Zealot*Dual Thernda*ChieftainIronThorn*Accuracy(Skill base+Str stat dmg+Luk stat dmg)
2.198*1.15*1.2625*1.5*.8425(1+2*.385*352/200+.115*250/200) = 1007.803% melee

Also is "blade of briar" this one? Where is it?
quote:

Blade of the Briar

Water Magic sword.

No Special, so +9% damage.

MC: Click on it to cast a skill (similar to how the Morningstar Divine Cross works). 3 hits, Magic Water. It does *1.5 damage; Base/Rand damage is further multiplied *0.75; you use the full INT/8 for damage; and Lucky Strike damage is halved. Afterwards, your opponent can start Bleeding ([hits connected]/3/2 modifier). The monster can resist with a save at a +0 bonus (inflict with INT/LUK; resist with END/LUK). This is treated as a player attack and gets all the appropriate boosts, except that you apply neither (1) the Balance Engine's "weapon attacks do *1/1.1 damage" thing, nor (2) the +9% boost.

Cause I fail to where all the damage is coming from. It only does 1.5 times damage instead of morningstar cross 2x and is apparently stronger?

< Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 10/14/2019 1:54:33 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 6
10/14/2019 2:54:47   
Primate Murder
Member

Ok, I'm not a math wiz, so I'll try to cut down the numbers to a minimum. So, in reverse order:

Blade of Briar is probably better because it's multiplicative - meaning it increases the damage you gain from boosters and other additive damage modifiers. There's also the fact that the Cross is 100-proc, meaning it doesn't get *1.25 from the FO armor lean. I haven't run the numbers myself, but folks who tried it out claim the Blade's noticably better. Unfortunately, it's also permarare.

I'm cutting out the boosters and stat damage (since they are meant to be the same for all things), and WKZ is old standard, so unaffected by Zealot's. With that in mind:

Bloodmage (spell damage * elecomp * (blood boost + cutlass bonus)): 200 * 1.85 * 1.78 = 658.6% melee.

WKZ (skill damage * elecomp * CIT): 200 * 2.2 * 1.5 = 660% melee.



Of course, Bloodmage is going to be more accurate due to CIT's -10 bth, and of course WKZ is going to be slightly stronger, since most miscs divide by 2 for spells. Still, all said, the two are more or less equal.
AQ DF  Post #: 7
10/14/2019 3:03:29   
Kurtz96
Member

Does that take into account Celtic Wheel +50 Int which both increases stat damage and also makes the boosters better (so a double boost)? That seems to be the only thing that is different in the setup. Maybe that is the difference.

Considering WKZ is unbalanced and basically the same as bloodmage, then balancing it (and more importantly the other armors as well) would result in a gap between warriors and mages though which was my reason for creating this thread. The loss of all though nukes would mean a reliance on the imbue skills and 3 of them are locked behind tokens, 1 is permarare (defender of frostval past), and 1 is about to go rare and requires a ultra rare GGB (mason's form). While the mage nukes are package items but none are rare/permarare.

< Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 10/14/2019 3:17:28 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 8
10/14/2019 3:35:32   
Primate Murder
Member

Celtic Wheel, uh...

Spells deal 50% damage and 50% damage via stats. 250 Int = 50% spell damage, so 50 Int = 10% extra spell damage. That actually counteracts the 10% damage loss from a standard misc (which gives +20% damage to weapon-based, but +10% to spell-based).

Dual Poes give +45% damage (from LA's equation), and Int is responsible for 16.875% out of the 45%, I think? So the extra Int just gives +1.7% damage, give or take.

Overall, they remain around the same number, I think, when accounting for a misc, though the Bloodmage is more accurate.


As for the other point:

Bloodzerker + Cross deals (skill damage * skill damage * CIT * Blood Boost): 200 * 2 *1.5 * 1.2 = 720% melee. (Edit: actually, *1.1 for no special and -5% for downtrigger, so closer to 759% melee)

Torontosaurus + Bloodblade deals (skill damage * (sp bonus + Blood Blade bonus) * CIT * FO): 200 * 1.7 * 1.5 * 1.25 = 637.5% melee. (edit: *1.08 for no special, so 688.5% melee)

If anything, the staff are beginning to close the gap between the warrior and mage nukers. Pyromancer Bloodmage is permarare, and the rest only cover three elements.

Mind you, I'm in no way advocating re-balancing the old standard armors now, but I would greatly prefer if the gap between the two builds was covered by modern, balanced items, and not outdated lopsided ones.

< Message edited by Primate Murder -- 10/14/2019 4:11:34 >
AQ DF  Post #: 9
10/14/2019 15:02:00   
Kurtz96
Member

Well, presumably we will be getting the other elements for bloodmage and bloodzerker. And while pyromancer bloodmage is permarare, so is the ice imbue of Frostval defender.

< Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 10/14/2019 15:05:03 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 10
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