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RE: Our concerns, ideas, wishes, etc to improve AQ in-game & Encyclopedia

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12/11/2019 3:13:06   
lolerster
Member
 
quote:

As the guy who actually maintains that page, what you said is incorrect. The calculation used there is not outdated. What it is, is a very close approximation. The overleveling multiplier, as well as the part CHA takes is ignored for the sake of simplicity since, while they change the number, it's not by a lot.

This cap can be reached without Charisma. 250 Int + Celtic Wheel or Int misc. + Arcane Amplification will cap Poelala's damage boost. No further increase in Charisma will increase Poelala's damage. This is assumed since those nukes are almost always used under stuns/where damage taken doesn't matter.

The elemental booster pets is showing a tooltip is showing me identical boosts to ranged and magic. Does this mean they are exempt from the 3/4 penalty that Poelala get?

quote:


A Bloodblade/Bloodzerker Blade will boost your attacks with any Bloodzerker armor or Weapon-Based skill regardless of their element. While there's a 5% additive difference when using with a non-matching Bloodzerker armor, it's hardly anything worth mentioning unless you don't have a better use for these slots, in which case, you do: Cutlasses.

The problem is that you lose the Bloodblade damage boost effect for hp cost when you are using one of the Cutlasses. It also doesn't change the fact that you are replacing 1 bloodblade/bloodzerker blade slot for Morningstar Cross whereas you are sacrificing multiple slots to run cutlass. Also, if you have Blade of Briar as a FO warrior, you sacrifice no slots. While Morningstar is the same for FD mages, the same cannot be said for FO mages. Tsunami Pen is worse for FO, as you are now filling a slot with a level 132 FD weapon. That's a pretty big penalty. However, to be fair I have added Cutlass calcs.

quote:

# Boosters that boost normal player attacks (like Poelala) will only give a Melee-level boost to weapon-based skills (anything that's a normal player attack and has its stat bonuses doubled).

Thanks for clearing that up, I will have those numbers fixed with the *3/4

quote:

+0.2 is the Bloodzerker additive multiplier, and -0.25 is the additive penalty of the Blade of Briar.

Thanks for the explanation.

quote:

A partial misleading context is worse than honestly providing no context at all.
The Skill Power Ranking page specifically ignores things like efficiency and cost, to provide only damage numbers. You however included the bloodcost, while omitting the fact Bloodzerker costs about a third of what it's supposed to in SP due to elecomp going into cost. There's relevant context here.
Additionally, a power ranking page simply can't follow your entirely specific setup, which is why miscs aren't used, and the assumption is of dual omni-boosters (no elemental ones).

I sincerely request you do your research before throwing similar bold accusations and misleading players for no reason.

I totally forgot that the extra SP cost on the Bloodskills. Oops. That was terrible. I'm used to seeing the 491 sp cost for magic and forgot that Bloodzerker+Cross has the same cost for melee and not the usual 392.

< Message edited by lolerster -- 12/11/2019 3:51:57 >
AQ  Post #: 26
12/11/2019 3:56:08   
gavers
Member
 
quote:

This cap can be reached without Charisma. 250 Int + Celtic Wheel or Int misc. + Arcane Amplification will cap Poelala's damage boost. No further increase in Charisma will increase Poelala's damage. This is assumed since those nukes are almost always used under stuns/where damage taken doesn't matter.

I don't see how that's relevant to the quoted part. The 0.3 and 0.6 figures are what boosters should give assuming you have VStat = ExpStat, and ignoring overleveling formulas.
We're not talking about any cap being reached since the entire assumption in the skill power ranking page is about not using miscs and boost sources, and that's including Celtic Wheel, since quantifying stats will just make the page so much more complex.
That still doesn't change the fact the page is for the most part accurate, since the difference would be very marginal.
quote:

The problem is that you lose the Bloodblade damage boost effect for hp cost when you are using one of the Cutlasses. It also doesn't change the fact that you are replacing 1 bloodblade/bloodzerker blade slot for Morningstar Cross whereas you are sacrificing multiple slots to run cutlass. That's a pretty big penalty. However, to be fair I have also included Cutlas calcs.

Why? Keep 1 Bloodblade in your inventory for whatever element you want, add the Cutlasses, and you don't lose out on nothing. While it's generally recommended, you're absolutely not prohibited from running two weapons with the same element if that doesn't inhibit your setup.
quote:

I totally forgot that the extra SP cost on the Bloodskills. Oops. That was terrible. I'm used to seeing the 491 sp cost for magic and forgot that Bloodzerker+Cross has the same cost for melee and not the usual 392.

To be honest I have no idea what you meant so I'll just trust that you at least know what you meant.

I will however both reiterate that my initial point remains, which is: Don't spread misinformation. Be informed before making statements. Just like your post about the Barriers which seems to also be way off as well,
and refrain from further balance discussion in this thread since at least to my understanding this was never the intention of the guy who opened the thread.

I am however available on both the Official and Unofficial Discord servers, so feel free to @ me.
Post #: 27
12/11/2019 4:21:51   
lolerster
Member
 

 Thanks. Shouldn't have said it was inaccurate.

quote:

Why? Keep 1 Bloodblade in your inventory for whatever element you want, add the Cutlasses, and you don't lose out on nothing. While it's generally recommended, you're absolutely not prohibited from running two weapons with the same element if that doesn't inhibit your setup.


Due to the ele-locked effect of armor skill, having a single Blade of Briar/Morningstar Cross is suffcient to damage boost for all elements (as long as bloodzerker armor exists). However, Cutlass only boosts the spell damage of its respective element. Having 1 Cutlass in your set-up increases your damage only for the element of Cutlass. Having 1 Morning Star Cross boosts the damage of all elements for which Bloodzerker exists for.

MC Effect: Deals -10% damage with weapon attacks. Spells of the weapon's element deal +28.125% damage in exchange.

quote:

To be honest I have no idea what you meant so I'll just trust that you at least know what you meant.

For melee, Bloodzerker costs 99 and Cross costs 392 SP. Costs 491 total. I was comparing this to the usual 392 SP of armor skills with a melee/ranged attack type.

< Message edited by lolerster -- 12/11/2019 4:29:15 >
AQ  Post #: 28
12/11/2019 9:20:18   
Zoulexchanger
Member

Please dont touch CIT, nobody wants CIT to be nerfed!
Post #: 29
12/11/2019 9:26:37   
lolerster
Member
 

 I don't understand...why is there this aversion to changing an obviously broken item? It throws out all the other work put into balance out the window.

Anyway probably getting a bit off-topic now...
AQ  Post #: 30
12/11/2019 10:48:27   
Bolter
Member

quote:

I don't understand...why is there this aversion to changing an obviously broken item? It throws out all the other work put into balance out the window.

Anyway probably getting a bit off-topic now...


You are really truly either oblivious or thick-skulled to even think of that... Warriors doing measly damages, while mages still get to blast away with their overpowered spells?

< Message edited by Bolter -- 12/11/2019 12:15:00 >
AQ  Post #: 31
12/11/2019 11:10:57   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 Remain constructive and on topic. Insults and ad hominem attacks are quite far from both.
Post #: 32
12/11/2019 13:04:10   
lolerster
Member
 

 @Bolter: Can you explain to me why you think warriors do less damage? Here is how damage output works for warrios vs. Mages:

  • In terms of regular attacks, warriors deal more damage, as all magic weapons have a 25% damage penalty compared to melee weapons.
  • In terms of spells, all single-element spells in the game deals 200% melee in damage with no elecomp, ignoring damage penalty for status effects, mc bonuses, bth leans and other such bonuses/penalties. This is true for both mp-based spells and sp-based spells. The standouts are the burst spells which deals 50% additive damage for a hp cost - this includes Warmaster's Burst (available to both warriors and mages), Destruction Burst (mage only) and the 3 premium burst spells (mage only). Most mp spells cost 653 mana and sp spells cost 392 sp.
  • Armor skills all do 200% melee in damage, multiplied by the appropriate elecomp, which typically makes them much stronger than spells. Armor skills based on mp cost 653 mana generally and sp skills generally cost 392 sp for melee/ranged characters and 490 sp for mage characters.
  • The standout armor skills are old standard armors, bloodzerker armors, and bloodmage armors. The Bloodmage armors are available only to mages and the others are available to warriors and mages. As discussed earlier in the thread, Bloodzerker + Blade of Briar will always beat out Bloodmage in every situation, even without CIT (but for a cost of 491 sp and 30 hp for warriors). Bloodzerker + Morningstar (491 sp and 30 hp) is slightly stronger than Bloodmage without booster weapons and slightly weaker than Bloodmage with booster weapons. The old standard armors deal roughly the same damage/slightly less than Bloodzerker + Morningstar Cross, but for 392 sp for warriors.
  • Keep in mind that mages can use CIT/armor skills just as well as warriors, though at a higher sp cost.

    So can you explain to me at which point in all of this suggests warriors deal measly damage while mages blast away with their overpowered spells? More convenient, sure, as mages have access to sp and mp. But more damage? Not at all, they are roughly equal in damage output.

    Because of this, I don't see a nerf to CIT as a warrior vs. mage discussion at all, as it affects both classes' damage output. It's more of a game balance issue overall. In fact, I see it as a bigger problem than even how overpowered booster pets. Booster pets affect everything equally while CIT selevtively make certain armors stronger. Any armor with a skill that doesn't scale with CIT is immediately dismissed if a scaling alternative exists. Look at the War armor at the end pf the Burning Solstice. Seems pretty decent on paper. However, because none of its skills scale with CIT, it was immediately called on the forum for being too weak. An item like that is overcentralizing and unhealthy from the perspective of balance.

    Are warriors perhaps still a bit weaker than mages as a playstyle overall?? That seems to be the general consensusd. Whether or not that's actually the case however, CIT should not remain in its current state.

    If you are making a concious decision to not optimize your equips, this is a separate discussion all together.

    < Message edited by lolerster -- 12/11/2019 13:17:29 >
    • AQ  Post #: 33
    12/11/2019 13:37:43   
    Kurtz96
    Member

    		@lolerster

    Moving aside form the calculations, I originally responded to you question on why CIT is more associated with warriors. The reason is that CIT doesn't boost spells, so it gets associated with builds that don't use spells more, ie warriors.

    As for your reason why there is the idea that mages are "stronger" or do more damage:
    You realize that a lot of what you keep saying about warriors (bloodzerker, updated morningstar cross) is newer right? The first bloodzerker came out in 2018 and the same for the morningstar update. The first bloodmage came out in 2016. Hence the idea that mages are stronger.
    Plus blade of the briar is perma-rare and while it came out in 2016 we needed to wait for thee bloodzerker armors to use it to its full potential.

    < Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 12/11/2019 13:43:27 >
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 34
    12/11/2019 13:51:03   
    lolerster
    Member
     

    		 I suppose that's true. Bloodzerker is relatively new so that older idea is still there.

    Blade of Briar may he unavailable and we might not have elements for every zerker armor, however, Morningstar Cross is. And old-std armors are still here. Admittedly you do sacrifice weapon slot for morning star but it is a weapon that scales with both subrace transformations and bloodzerker armors, meaning it's still very good. The only missing elements are darkness and wind, which have no bloodmage equivalent either.

    Also rip me for beating the void boss that sold BoB but choosing not to buy it.
    AQ  Post #: 35
    12/11/2019 14:34:19   
    Bu Kek Siansu
    Member

    		Cray, I have a question about the Loremaster's Memorial, if I'm not wrong there is something missing.

    There was no one even no NPC who could bid farewell to Falerin Ardendor.

    There should be some NPCs around the Loremaster's Tome who could bid farewell to Falerin Ardendor.

    Important NPCs like Artix, Hollow, Warlic, etc.

    Would it be possible to edit that quest for the reason I mentioned above?

    Or, am I wrong in this case?

    Thanks for your time, help and consideration.



    < Message edited by Bu Kek Siansu -- 12/11/2019 17:59:07 >
    Post #: 36
    12/11/2019 15:30:33   
    Aura Knight
    Member

    		Warriors need to put a lot more effort to deal the same amount of damage as a mage and that's where the imbalance is obvious. There are efforts to even things out though so it's not all bad. But the biggest advantage is that mages get to use MP and with spells being very powerful, that makes mages the better of the two.

    As for CIT, while it can be used by all builds, I think warriors should get the biggest advantage from it. However, armor skills do exist and all builds can benefit from those and in instances where skill damage is boosted by CIT too, it makes the shield seem more universal than focused on just one build, being warriors in this case.

    Question we need to answer is whether or not every build should continue to find use from CIT or if it should become focused to warriors. Perhaps such a change would be fair. Mages can go back to focusing on damaging spells and have less of a focus on armor skills while warrior focus shifts more to skills and then you'd have armor skills and spells rival each other but be of about equal power.

    In the event such a change happens, I can also expect some backlash from mage builds that were more focused on skills to burst down enemies quickly. Sounds like a tough challenge that is likely not easy to overcome. Might be why nobody wanted to do anything with the shield all this time. Balance is tricky and I won't pretend to understand how it should happen but hopefully things work out in the end and everyone remains happy with whatever occurs.
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 37
    12/11/2019 16:05:20   
      Lorekeeper
    And Pun-isher

     

    		 The memorial was released during a particularly packed time of development, say nothing about the impact of the news themselves, so I am afraid that there was no content missing. We would have certainly loved to do more. That being said, while I am not at liberty to make any guarantees, let alone announcements, I absolutely have further ideas to honor Falerin's memory that I dearly hope to have the occasion to work on. It's great to see that there is interest in such.
    Post #: 38
    12/11/2019 16:46:46   
    Bolter
    Member

    		@ lolerster: you do realize that because spells don't rely on CIT, that they will always that much damage, no matter what shield or armor they use, whereas sp skills on the other hand, get affected ain't it?..
    AQ  Post #: 39
    12/11/2019 17:41:05   
    lolerster
    Member
     

    		 @Bolter: Do you realize that SP spells and mp spells do about the same damage and sp armor skills and mp armor skills also do about the same without factoring in CIT?

    You have clearly ignored any calculations that were presented.

    Also, not all SP skills are affected my CIT. Only weapon based skills.
    AQ  Post #: 40
    12/11/2019 18:25:58   
    Bolter
    Member

    		SP Spells doing same damage as MP spells doesn't seem that way at all when I tested it out though that was a very long time ago, but at the moment warriors are usually locked onto certain equipments for strong damage more do than mages resulting in more restrictions on them as it is. We always see mages hitting the damage cap, but not warriors at the end of it all.

    < Message edited by Bolter -- 12/11/2019 18:32:11 >
    AQ  Post #: 41
    12/11/2019 18:38:45   
    Dekoras
    Member

    		Figured I'd throw in my 2 cents...

    Chieftan's Iron Thorn
    I've always thought this was fairly balanced (I've been playing for a long time), but it seems due to the massive increase in damage output over time, CIT becomes broken simply because it's downsides are rendered moot. I think it can actually be kept the way it is, provided other things are balanced out. Alternatively, perhaps it could be swept to essentially be a warrior's version of Celtic Wheel (ie. a standard earth shield with a toggleable +50 STR boost), which would help level the playing field so that mages can't deal so much damage with armor skills, since they have spells. Speaking of which...

    Armor Skills
    I always thought it was a bit absurd that mages are able to deal the same damage as warriors with armor skills (isn't this supposed to be the main draw for the warrior build?), and a higher SP cost doesn't really make up for it. Wouldn't it make more sense to keep the cost the same and only scale damage off of the weapon's type, so that magic weapons lead to a *3/4 damage output compared with melee weapons?

    Spells
    These were always the big draw for mages, but it seems they have become somewhat pointless (outside of the damage-boosted/armor skill spells), as mages can just do more damage in other ways. With the above recommendations, I think it would help return the game to a point where damage spells are more viable again, and more of how a mage is supposed to function.

    Stun Meta
    Thought the concept was cool when it first became a viable strategy, but it seems to have grown wildly out of control. The main culprits seem to be Purple Rain and Essence Orb. As much as I enjoy using them, it makes the game repetitive and I feel it definitely violates the balance. Turning ordinarily useful miscs or abilities into complete game breakers, I think something really needs to be done about these. Monsters that aren't killable in a few turns from these types of strategies have become few and far between (not to mention the player taking no direct damage). It would also make boss status' (freedom, damage cap, etc.) less of a necessary evil and more of a unique aspect to the particular boss challenge. Honestly, I'm surprised nobody has brought this up yet.

    Booster Pets
    While I think its pretty obvious that these are OP, but I'm not sure how best to go about balancing them, given that most of them cost actual money to buy. I know the only reason I decided to shell out money for Dunamis is because you're simply playing at a huge disadvantage as a melee user if you don't have him. That being said, if pets/guests like this are revamped to be too balanced, or made to use CHA as a main stat, this will inevitably cause a lot of disgruntled customers (myself included). I don't think it's fair to the people who specifically paid for items like these to be penalized too much for it, and they shouldn't have to change their entire build just to make use of them.

    Stats
    As people have already mentioned, DEX seems to be an unbalanced stat. Either a nerf to this or a buff to other stats appears to be in order, as the penalty for having no DEX at high levels is simply too great. The only exception to this being a lucky hybrid, but you are pretty much relegated to only using the Werepyre armors. I'm all for more viable builds and character diversity, so I'd be happy to see END and CHA get a boost in some way.

    You can also put me down as a vote for each of the top 3 recommendations so far (encyclopedia, stat revamp, & trading system) +1

    Let me know what you think, or if I'm missing some key points somewhere. We all just want what's best for the game, after all
    AQ  Post #: 42
    12/11/2019 18:41:07   
    lolerster
    Member
     

    		 Well ..math doesn't lie...

    Also damage cap? Werewolfs can consistently hit 15k+ with the terror set weapon. What damage cap are you talking about? Are you talking about the soft damage cap status on some boss monsters?

    I like most of the above suggestions. Kinda wanna discuss more but swamped at work right now.
    AQ  Post #: 43
    12/11/2019 18:49:33   
    Bolter
    Member

    		You did not see all those videos posted by mages really.. they did well over 30k+ in one hit, you think werewolf warriors can do that much as you said with Terror without CIT?

    < Message edited by Bolter -- 12/11/2019 18:54:33 >
    AQ  Post #: 44
    12/11/2019 19:06:11   
    lolerster
    Member
     

    		 Do you want to perhaps...show those videos so I can explain what's going on in them...?
    AQ  Post #: 45
    12/11/2019 19:20:45   
    Bolter
    Member

    		The problem is that they were all on discord, I don't think the users would even bother to upload them on YouTube. I did not do much research on Werepyre, but it saddens to me to see that even most of the Werepyre Hybrids would op to use magic weapons over melee weapons when Hybrids rightfully should have better regular attack damage with melee weapons. At least until they can come up with something special for warrior builds to make people seriously want to consider playing a warrior build over a mage build at the very least, until then...

    < Message edited by Bolter -- 12/11/2019 19:24:02 >
    AQ  Post #: 46
    12/11/2019 19:29:55   
    lolerster
    Member
     

    		 The as far as I'm concerned they were either bugs (e.g. Windter Crown on release), Terror Totem (can be done by both warriors and mages, but is more suitable for warriors due to werewolf compatibility), Book of Burns (possible by warriors as well, with Celtic Wheel/Elahi's Irt of Osiris, though a sane person would only only run it on a mage), Kindred on a mob with high resistances (again possible by both warriors and mages) or a very specific situation applying to very specific cases.

    None of the above cases suggest warriors require CIT to be competitive with mage in damage. Unless you can provide some hard evidence that can over turn damage calcs, your word is just that, your word.

    AQ  Post #: 47
    12/11/2019 19:33:05   
    Bolter
    Member

    		You can try digging up the videos anyway, don't know how but it's probably possible, but like I said, until Warriors have something special be to make people seriously consider playing it over mages, until then that is.
    AQ  Post #: 48
    12/11/2019 19:53:47   
    Aura Knight
    Member

    		I see nothing wrong with the stun meta since it's not forced on us. The option to stun enemies and use your armor skills to burst down their hp is nice and many take advantage of it, however there are other means of winning fights that doesn't require such tactics. But those just aren't efficient.

    Yes, we do have some pretty busted effects we can stack together but that's where the fun comes in. Finding potential effect combinations could rekindle a bored player's interest in the game so I don't think there's a need to remove certain things we can do. Instead, I'd not be opposed to making more monsters able to resist better against such strategies. But that would be dependent on how some stats work. Guaranteed stuns on every attempt does make the game too easy but what's wrong with easy? If you want to give yourself a challenge, don't use any of the tactics you don't agree with.

    With AQ being single player and allowing everyone to play in any way they please, I'm not so sure we should remove certain options just because others might not want to use them in fights. Wouldn't be fair.

    quote:

    None of the above cases suggest warriors require CIT to be competitive with mage in damage. Unless you can provide some hard evidence that can over turn damage calcs, your word is just that, your word.


    For warriors to compete with mage damage, they can only effectively do so through armor skills. Weapon damage alone doesn't compare with damage a spell can do. Mages have more and easily accessible boosts whereas warriors lack that. At this time the only viable rivals to most magic damage would be the bloodzerker armors and kindred but those are hardly rivals as mages make great use of each too. It's unfortunate to admit that warriors will likely remain in the shadow of mages. This doesn't mean warrior damage is low but it's still lacking. When you have your booster pets available for free (sort of, if you can call GGB that) the advantage if yours. The Poelala pet and guest are not locked behind some token package unlike the Dunamis pet. Yes, the guest is there for everyone who is lucky enough to get the right giftbox roll, but to get the most of the double dunamis boost you also need to get the token package which offers it. There's more effort required from warrior builds to have an equal chance at power as mages.

    I never bothered with the math in this game but from what I've experience while playing, mages offer a much easier time for basically everything. Any update meant to benefit warriors is often a bonus for mages too so I doubt there ever will be a true balance of power in this game. But who knows, maybe something will come from these conversations.
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 49
    12/11/2019 23:28:05   
    lolerster
    Member
     

    		 @Bolter: I think I'm just going to stop responding to you. Did you really just ask me to provide evidence for your claim when you are unable to provide a shred of evidence yourself? I'm not even sure if I'm getting trolled at this point.

    In general, I agree with Aura Knight and Dekoras' viewpoint. It is a lot more convenient for mages to dish out big damage than warrior as they have 2 resource bars - 1 that fully heals in between/outside of battles, and 1 that regenerates during battles compared to warrior builds, which only have some access to the ladder. Convenience is definitely a factor that needs to be considered, particularly in a game with a lot of farming like AQ (otherwise every Warrior would run Book of Burns/Celtic Wheel/Elahi's Irt of Osiris).

    Warriors do have some compensation for this, with a 25% damage penalty on warrior weapons and a 25% damage increase cost on SP magic armor skills. It's hard to say if these compensations are sufficient, but at least the ladder has never stopped me from using Bloodzerker/Old std armors on my mage. Maybe the way to do it is to reduce damage by 25% rather than increasing the SP cost by 25%. I don't know. However, I am strongly of the opinion that the current version of CIT is in no way compensation for this. How can it be when mages can use it equally as effectively as warriors? Not to mention it is very over-centralizing, limits build diversity and limits design space due to how powerful and selective its effect is.

    There have been many suggestions thrown around on possible rework just in this thread. Turn it into a strength drive. Keep the damage boost but make the accuracy penalty a lot more significant. Incur an HP cost. Increase damage taken. Maybe make its effect scale to strength (for example, higher strength increases damage bonus, but reduces accuracy).

    I think the stun meta is actually a big factor as to why this item is so strong. The defense penalties on this is honestly pretty signficant against a high-difficulty enemy. However, increasing damage taken is a superficial disadvantage because of the stun meta. Bosses can be designed around it with something like the War-Torn Dragon. As mentioned by Dekora, Purple Rain and Essence Orb are the main problems. In my opinion, Purple Rain is the main issue, owing to the fact that with Quick-Cast Spells/Miscs., it's effectively something along the lines of 1400ish SP/possibly 653 (or even more) mp for absolutely 0 cost. It's ridiculously good. We don't need to kill the stun meta, but nerfing Purple Rain can bring into line. Maybe it can be reworked to work like Father Time instead.

    Again to Dekora's point, one big draw for mages is spells...but spells kind of suck now, at least offensive ones. The only ones that are good are the burst spells, and even those pale in comparison to armor skills. Again, stun meta is partially to blame for this, as you can cast skills with the elecomp that spells lack without having to worry about the downsides of defense. Nerfing stun meta can kind of amend this problem? I dunno what can be done about it at this point.

    Booster pets are broken. The elemental booster pets are even more broken (except for Lepre-chan). This is of course, because of the fact they scale primarily with main stat rather than CHA and their great scaling with nukes (especially armor skills). The obvious way to address this is just to change them all to work like Lepre-chan.
    AQ  Post #: 50
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