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RE: Golden Giftbox Cross-Game Extravaganza

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2/13/2020 22:11:36   
Kurtz96
Member

Many of these items are just clones of existing items with new elements. Regal dragon blade seems the best of these new items.

Prime chaos orb is cool, but is functionally the same as the blood contract. Both increase by 1.1 for both sides of the battle. While you can keep doing it to increase the damage multiplier, the second time you do it it locks you out of spells/skills so nuking (which would be the point of stacking vulnerabilities) doesn't work. You could wait a turn, but 2 turns of nuke damage at x1.1 is more than 1 turn of nuke damage at x1.7

Riftwalker pet is basically the pig drake but ice
Cerberus armor is like many of the 50,000 token sets that burn

I know that there are a lot of items and there are a few more on the way though, so I understand.

The only thing I am wondering is Dread fiend vs grimlord as a darkness guest.

< Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 2/13/2020 22:21:31 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 101
2/13/2020 22:27:56   
J9408
Member

From the looks of everything, it seems Pets & Guest outshine everything else.

The only item summon left is Infernal Legion Minion Summon. I hope it is not similar to Djinn.

< Message edited by J9408 -- 2/13/2020 22:38:57 >
Post #: 102
2/13/2020 22:30:43   
lolerster
Member
 
  • Regal Dragon Blade is basically a bloodblade with a 5% downtrigger.
  • Prime Chaos Orb's negative effect occurs in random order. They are: Locking out of regular attacks, locking you out of skills, locking you out of OTHER weapons, locking you out of OTHER armors, locking you out of OTHER shields, and locking you out of all misc/potions. The increased damage doesn't matter under stun and can be used with father time and purple rain. The point is that it you can increase your damage at no cost. Also, a free increase in multiplier of 10% dmg every turn is significant. Celerity also resets all the negative effects, allowing you to stack it further. Furthermore, the effect stays in place even if it is unequipped, meaning it can be used with Power Gauntlet AND Blood Contract/other damage boosters.
  • Basically pig drake, but the defense is fire specific, so it gets a much larger boost.
  • The FD cerberus armor is also the best FD water armor in the game imo.
  • Grimlord is most likely better in most situations. I know I said I did 10k dmg with it, but I also died on the second attack of that turn. HOWEVER, if you are using an elecomp skill against the opposite element with a poor darkness resist, Dread Fiend is better.
    • AQ  Post #: 103
    2/13/2020 22:43:11   
    Kurtz96
    Member

    		Oh, you mean 10K damage from the backlash. I thought you meant the actual attack.

    And yeah, this release seems focused on pets/guests. Maybe the items still to come will be offensive items. I guess the issue is that the nuke items we already have are so strong they are already basically best in slot. So new items have to be broken so seem underwhelming.

    quote:

    Prime Chaos Orb's negative effect occurs in random order. They are: Locking out of regular attacks, locking you out of skills, locking you out of OTHER weapons, locking you out of OTHER armors, locking you out of OTHER shields, and locking you out of all misc/potions. The increased damage doesn't matter under stun and can be used with father time and purple rain. The point is that it you can increase your damage at no cost. Also, a free increase in multiplier of 10% dmg every turn is significant. Celerity also resets all the negative effects, allowing you to stack it further. Furthermore, the effect stays in place even if it is unequipped, meaning it can be used with Power Gauntlet AND Blood Contract/other damage boosters.

    The multiple turns usually don't matter in nuke builds. And 2 turns of nuking at x1.1 is stronger than 1 turn of nuking at x1.6 (plus x1.1 from blood contract). Using power gauntlet is not relevant as you should already be using it.

    < Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 2/13/2020 22:54:50 >
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 104
    2/13/2020 22:48:01   
    J9408
    Member

    		Is the Darkness Backlash really that powerful? From the looks of the subs I can't tell if it is better or equal to Carnage.

    < Message edited by J9408 -- 2/13/2020 22:51:51 >
    Post #: 105
    2/13/2020 22:51:45   
    Kurtz96
    Member

    		^the damage taken is 85.7% of damage done multiplied by the same carnage formula. It isn't that powerful if you aren't taking a lot of damage (ie using a dark armor against a light enemy).

    Unfortunately, Defender of cerberus inflicts a water burn so it does not stack with energy burns (from like thunder lord's ravens) which you would expect to be using against water enemies.

    < Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 2/13/2020 22:58:07 >
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 106
    2/13/2020 23:28:53   
    toannghe1997
    Member

    		@Kurtz
    However, if you stack the x0.5 every turn for a few turns, the damage output will eventually be much larger (provided that you can survive the equally strong attacks from your foe). I can imagine stacking the Prime Chaos Orb's effect every turn while using the Carnage guest: You can't attack for the first few turns but your foe would still be harmed by the backlash. Once the Orb's stacks are high enough, causing freeze/soak/petrify/... + shadow feeder pendant-love potion-purple rain combo + x2 poela = Big Profit!!!

    Of course, there are simpler ways to dish out more consistent and big damage, but still, this orb has potentials for a lot of builds
    Post #: 107
    2/13/2020 23:38:56   
    Kurtz96
    Member

    		The issue is that in those turns of you not doing anything you have already killed the enemy anyways. The point of a nuke build is to kill the enemy as quickly as possible. The only time you might not be able to are bosses, who have soft damage caps and or boss boost which make your rolls less likely to succeed anyways.

    I am assuming you can only stack chaos orb 6 times per turn because there is only 6 things to turn off: then every turn you are adding 60% damage at max (assuming all your rolls succeed) so your next nuke does 160% damage when you could have just added another 100% damage nuke for a total of 200% damage.

    I am not saying Prime chaos orb is a bad item, I just think it is a win more item.

    < Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 2/13/2020 23:43:35 >
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 108
    2/14/2020 0:04:16   
    toannghe1997
    Member

    		Yes, I do realize that. However, there are monsters with a ludicrous amount of Hp (over 15,000-20,000) which you can't nuke in 3 turns, which is where this misc comes in handy. Plus, you just need to spend 2 turns to stack up the orb and the damage you deal on the 5th turn would already be higher than if you simply attack with blood contract from the start.

    I feel that this misc is most suitable for defensive mages and beast masters. The first group can stack up, burst 3 spells, stack again while chucking down mana potions - all while sitting in a defensive armor with a mana shield. The second group can stack up and their pet + guest would do the rest. This also makes regenerative/damage lowering weapons more useful (carrot lance is the only thing that comes to mind at the moment, but perhaps there will be more in the future)
    Post #: 109
    2/14/2020 0:07:45   
    lolerster
    Member
     

    		 You can just use it once per turn and do your normal stuff, since the first click has no penalty. You can then switch to Blood Contract or w/e your damage booster item of choice is and keep chaos orb's effect.
    AQ  Post #: 110
    2/14/2020 1:05:40   
    Primate Murder
    Member

    		What lolerster said - it doesn't replace Blood Contract, it complements it. You can click on it for *1.1 damage boost, then switch to Blood contract for another *1.1

    Alternatively, you can stun the monster (or use celerity, blind, choke, terror, cold, etc) and stack like *1.5 damage boost in one turn, which is like equiping a second CIT.

    And, of course, it works fairly nice for beastmasters, since they suffer somewhat fierce from a lack of guest-boosting miscs.


    P.S. Also, and I can't believe I just noticed it, it scrambles monster resists! You can now change monster resists to fit your strongest nuke (WKZ, Frostval past weapons, etc) w/o a turn cost. Hell, you can even run with a single nuke set-up, scrambling monster resists to fit it!

    < Message edited by Primate Murder -- 2/14/2020 1:13:13 >
    AQ DF  Post #: 111
    2/14/2020 2:06:39   
    Ryu Draco
    Member

    		Wouldn't that be hampered by possibly sealing the attack option of the Nuke in question?
    AQ  Post #: 112
    2/14/2020 3:04:50   
    Willowofwish
    Member

    		Not when the strongest nuke requires absolutely no clicking from the menu bar, and that it now resides in the Void(Blade of the Briar).
    We got earth, fire and water zerker. That's 3 nukes right there.
    Imbue spells override the zerker. First toggle the zerker armor to their respective elelocks, then imbue.
    We got dark imbue, light imbue, energy imbue that don't overlap with the zerker armors. That's another 3

    We got 6 of the 8 elements covered in a nukes that don't require clicking on the menu

    If I'm remembering correctly, we're just missing an Ice or Wind zerker or imbue spell. We do have an ice imbue skill but that can't override the zerker's elelock.

    Essentially, purple rain, activate celerity and love potion/time gauntlet, spam chaos orb until you get your items locked out and either press attack or "skip turn", get your menu back, spam prime orb again until your items locked out and press attack or "skip turn", activate all your other boosts, and purple rain back. By now you should have all your stack in the chaos orb and if you really want to play safe then use one more celerity. Then depending on enemy resistance use whatever nukes mentioned above. Granted, it's heavily invested in ztokens and ultra rares with a lot of clicks, but it's still a way to get the big damage in.

    < Message edited by Willowofwish -- 2/14/2020 4:15:46 >
    AQ  Post #: 113
    2/14/2020 6:42:35   
    Helmino
    Member
     

    		 Cerberus FD armor seems like the best FD water armor. + it will work well with Pyre rats burn attack.

    I think that Grimmlord is still best darkness guest.

    Not sure about Shadowscythe floater... Does it worth ultra rare?

    Regal dragon blade looks really beautiful, will def get it later.
    Post #: 114
    2/14/2020 7:21:35   
    lolerster
    Member
     

    		 @Willowofwish: If your normal attacks are locked out, BotB/Morningstar/Zabura's onclick effect does not work. my suggestion is use a mix of bloodzerker/old standard, so that as soon as ONE of them gets locked out, you stop using the misc and use the one that doesn't get locked out..

    Also I would like yo remind everyone the first click has no penalty

    < Message edited by lolerster -- 2/14/2020 8:27:47 >
    AQ  Post #: 115
    2/14/2020 12:07:50   
    Tacos
    Member

    		Tried to get the Cerberus Armour. It's all common boxes. Swapped them and had enough for 5 rares. rip.
    There's always next year.
    AQ AQW  Post #: 116
    2/14/2020 12:10:42   
    J9408
    Member

    		Because of the dual opposing elements, I personally think the Champion of Sinmaw is better. Although the FD option for Cerberus is quite interesting.

    I only realize just now there are no FD Champion sets.
    Post #: 117
    2/14/2020 13:09:10   
    Lord GrimDusk
    Member

    		I forget, does Summon Grimlord take SP or MP? I know call goes the other way, so I was wondering which was which.
    AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 118
    2/14/2020 13:14:45   
    toannghe1997
    Member

    		call is SP and summon is MP
    Post #: 119
    2/14/2020 13:14:56   
    Macho Man
    Member

    		^Summons are always MP and Calls are always SP. Pretty sure Grimlord has both versions.
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 120
    2/14/2020 13:15:30   
    Kurtz96
    Member

    quote:

    Not when the strongest nuke requires absolutely no clicking from the menu bar, and that it now resides in the Void(Blade of the Briar).
    We got earth, fire and water zerker. That's 3 nukes right there.
    Imbue spells override the zerker. First toggle the zerker armor to their respective elelocks, then imbue.
    We got dark imbue, light imbue, energy imbue that don't overlap with the zerker armors. That's another 3

    I thought so too, but apparently morningstar cross is stronger than blade of the briar. Looking on the skill power rankings, moringstar cross>zabura's hammer>blade of the briar. I'm not sure is briar was nerfed when it returned or everyone was just mistaken before but it supposedly is not the best anymore.

    quote:

    I forget, does Summon Grimlord take SP or MP? I know call goes the other way, so I was wondering which was which.

    Summon is MP. Call is SP. And you can switch at the item manager. Most new guests have both versions

    EDIT:Ninja

    < Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 2/14/2020 13:24:20 >
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 121
    2/14/2020 14:00:39   
    CH4OT1C!
    Member

    		@Willowofwish: It has always been weaker. The mistake was due to armour lean being included when this doesn't affect the final calculation.

    @Kurtz96: Not entirely sure what you mean by a "win more" item, but to address as to how Prime Chaos orb should be used...
    ... This item is certainly not geared for a defensive setup. The stacked offensive lean it places on the opponent is detrimental to the heal loops and sustainability of the FD setup. That's not to say it lacks any usefulness: your Pets/Guests and status' (as you rightly say) will do more damage. I think the difference here is that the aim of the defensive setup is to survive as long as possible, wearing down your opponent. Too many stacks of chaorruption will definitely make that more difficult. Sure you could argue under the guise of stunlock, but you can do the same in FO so that point is rather moot.

    In contrast, there's hardly a downside at all in an offensive setup. The save is CHA/LUK on both the player and monster and, given the latter rarely have points CHA at all, you've got >70% chance of successful infliction even without any sort of CHA investment. FO seek to capitalise on the extra damage a foe intakes before taking any damage themselves, and Chaos orb is ideal in that respect (particularly because of its synergy with items like Blood contract, as pointed out by @Primate Murder. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that this is the single greatest item ever released for Nuke builds. However, it is an incredible bonus for when you need that little bit of extra damage.


    As far as my opinion on the items: I'm going to wait until after the other items are released (given 3 of them are ones I put forward). However, with respect to Prime Chaos Orb: It's definitely going into my active inventory. This item has all the major hallmarks I look for: creativity, risk/reward and a bit of unpredictability.
    AQ  Post #: 122
    2/14/2020 14:33:51   
    Kurtz96
    Member

    quote:

    @Kurtz96: Not entirely sure what you mean by a "win more" item, but to address as to how Prime Chaos orb should be used...
    ... This item is certainly not geared for a defensive setup. The stacked offensive lean it places on the opponent is detrimental to the heal loops and sustainability of the FD setup. That's not to say it lacks any usefulness: your Pets/Guests and status' (as you rightly say) will do more damage. I think the difference here is that the aim of the defensive setup is to survive as long as possible, wearing down your opponent. Too many stacks of chaorruption will definitely make that more difficult. Sure you could argue under the guise of stunlock, but you can do the same in FO so that point is rather moot.

    I called it win more because 90% of the time (against regular enemies) you don't need it if you are using the best nuke. And the other 10% of the time you are facing bosses who are more likely to have CHA/LUK and/or have boss boost which make rolls less likely to succeed. And even against bosses (other than essence of wind dragon) it almost never matters. Seriously every Void boss has been nukeable without this release.
    Plus if the misc slot is disabled (which is random) you can't stack prime chaos orb anymore or switch to blood contract.

    < Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 2/14/2020 14:45:48 >
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 123
    2/14/2020 17:07:56   
    lolerster
    Member
     

    		 @Kurtz: I don't know how many times I've said this, but the first click does not incur ANY penalties. You can click it once (in addition to all your other nuke setup), nuke. During the second turn of celerity, you click it again once (celerity is treated as a new turn by the orb), then nuke again. And on the next turn, you do that again.

    This means that on the first attack, you do x1.1, second attack you do x1.2, third x1.3, etc...If you run Blood Contract, this is like equipping TWO Blood Contracts, or possibly even better. At this point, it sounds like you are trying to convince yourself to not buy it.

    < Message edited by lolerster -- 2/14/2020 17:18:26 >
    AQ  Post #: 124
    2/14/2020 17:49:22   
    Andlu
    Member

    		I'm pretty sure boss boost only applies to 'stuns' right? which means it doesn't apply to this
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 125
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