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Guests and the Inn at the Edge of Time

 
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2/20/2020 10:42:08   
BluuHorseOfficial
Member


Edit: I'm sorry if my wording sounds a bit harsh and demanding, that's not how I intended it to be. I just feel really strongly against how easy it is for Guests to destroy Inn Challenges and that possibly factored into how I worded the rest of the post; it's mostly just an opinion and not a demand although I'm sorry if I made it sound that way.




One aspect of the game that I've always felt strongly against is Guests. Personally, I dislike them and feel like they should be outright banned from the Inn at the Edge of Time.

The Inn at the Edge of time was intended to be a place for challenging content and strategy, and as such, it is expected that you make full use of a class' skills to counter the effects your enemy applies to themselves or inflicts on you, or work through them until you finally manage to beat the boss. However, when guests are invited, the boss may even target the guest and inflict statuses on them. This adds a layer of RNG to the fight, as players who choose to use guests are compelled to reset the fight until all devastating statuses or skills are used on the guests while the player sets up and kills the enemy without a scratch. This is honestly really unfair for people who actually take the time to figure out the mechanics of the fights and their triggers and counters and the like because all their effort feels completely unnecessary when they could just invite guests and not have to care about a single aspect of the fight besides like, the enemy's health. It also cheapens the quality of the challenges and their mechanics and the time taken by the developers on making each fight unique and complex, as they completely destroy the complexity of the fight. Sure, Guests make enemies deal more damage, but that doesn't matter when you can inflict -70 Bonus with the Pirate guests or make Artix face tank a few hits and full heal, or slap a shield on Aegis or Leon and negate the incoming damage.

All in all, I feel that guests are a disgusting and unhealthy feature and should probably be banned from the Inn. If I recall correctly, they were supposed to be banned from Pandora's Gauntlet, but sadly, they aren't, and make this aesthetically and mechanically beautiful fight a pushover that gets steamrolled in literally 5 turns with the right setup. This isn't fair to the part of the community that actually cares about and developers who spend so much time and resources working on Inn content.




I would like to add, however, that guests aren't unhealthy for the game as a whole. They're really useful if you want to farm for Gold/EXP and can kill Voltabolt's machines in one turn so you benefit from the CHA boost without losing time. They're also good for getting low-level players through the story, which is a particularly icky phase to have to go through. You could also use them for grinding wars at low levels if there's a war ongoing and you're new to the game or on an alt. As with all my examples, there will be plenty of uses to guests still, but facerolling the Inn should not be one of them.




Do not comment on this thread with 'it's a single player game why does it need balance' or 'just don't use guests lol', thanks in advance.

< Message edited by BluuHorseOfficial -- 2/21/2020 2:44:45 >
DF  Post #: 1
2/20/2020 10:56:16   
Mooselim
Member

I agree. The developers put time and effort into making creative, fun and unique mechanics for each boss that guests allow people to totally circumvent through RNG. There are also some blatantly overpowered guest strategies with Leon, due to the fact that he has a full class kit basically. I think that guests are a fine strategy to use in questing, but in the challenge inn, I think they're cheap and it feels plain bad that people can steamroll challenging bosses through RNG with guests as opposed to having to make fun and interesting strategies with them.

To give an example, Pandora EX's inversion and apoptosis mechanic are something that are really unique and hard to circumvent, as you have to loop a debuff. The strategies that people came up to deal with them were genuinely cool - using obscure weapon specials, using skills that otherwise had no use, stalling through one way or another. With guests though, you could just facetank her while focusing entirely on nuking her down and hoping she rolled the chance of hitting a guest instead of you. The fact that guests made this challenge so much easier feels devaluing towards non-guest using strategies. I know it's not the point of this thread, but I would like to compliment how interesting Pandora EX is. I didn't enjoy the gauntlet last release, but Pandora EX is one of my if not my favorite challenge.

The argument of "you can just choose not to use them" is going to be brought up, eventually, so let me address it in advance. If there is something that is overpowered, it shouldn't just be ignored, and pretending it doesn't exist isn't dealing with the problem at large.

I think at the very least, from duo fights and extreme fights guests should be banned as those are the more challenge-focused ones, where solo challenges are "easier" relatively. I'd personally prefer a flat ban from the Inn at large, or maybe more mechanics that deal with guests i.e. Leorilla's enrage when a guest dies or more multi attacks.
Post #: 2
2/20/2020 11:22:57   
Marthe
Member
 

Honestly, I agree with the sentiment here. While guests are perfectly fine and understandable in-story, and are entirely valid to use at lower levels or for tough quests (or even because you just like having them with you), they don't have a place in an endgame challenge area. The basic reasons that guests are unhealthy in the Inn at the Edge of Time have been stated already by others (RNG and bypassing mechanics, mainly). Inn bosses are absolutely not designed with guests in mind, and while the damage increase is noticeable, it's really not enough of an anti-guests measure. Each Inn fight has its own unique mechanics, and many of them simply cannot deal with guests. Arguing that a simple damage increase across the board is enough to make this fair is disrespecting the uniqueness of each of these bosses.

Naturally, the argument can be made that without guests, the skill floor of challenges is increased, and fewer people can win against them. This is certainly true, and one only needs to look at the history of questions and complaints about the inability to use guests against the Undead Duo. However, this is not a bad thing. In the RPG genre, there are many examples of moderately to extremely difficult bosses - especially optional ones which have little to no bearing on the actual story. Just like in the Inn at the Edge of Time, people who fight these bosses know they're going into a difficult fight that is a cut above the rest of the game. Loss is always a possibility - it might even be the most likely possibility. In these games, players will learn these fights' mechanics, try out strategies, confer with other players, and get used to playing the fight, all in the name of eking out a victory against harsh odds. If a player isn't prepared or doesn't learn the fight or just simply isn't good enough, then they lose. The Inn is not a place for all players. It is a place designed to challenge the 1%, so to speak, who are max (or close to max) leveled, that collect the best gear and seek out the hardest fights. Any argument that implies it's meant to be accessible to everyone, or that its accessibility should be increased, simply falls flat. No one needs the gear from the Inn to play the entire rest of the game that is not the challenge arena. Players get Inn gear for harder Inn challenges. Dragonfable, as a whole, is a very accessible game. Very little of the game is the Inn, and no one is forcing people that aren't ready for the Inn into it.

Another possible argument is simply that people who don't like guests don't have to use them. This is certainly true, and people who don't like them don't use them. However, this does not change the fact that guests are unbalanced and problematic. Issues don't cease to exist if a person decides to ignore them. Now, considering Dragonfable is a single-player game, there may be those who argue that balance is not as important as multiplayer games. Whether or not this is true, arguing that an unbalanced aspect of the game should be left as-is solely because it's a single-player game is incredibly disrespectful to the work that Verlyrus and other devs do to keep the game fun and balanced. There is a long history of buffs and nerfs in Dragonfable, to classes, items, bosses, and other things. Much care is taken in the name of making a fun and fair game. For example, the Chaosweaver class went through no fewer than 9 iterations before the final result was released, because Verlyrus cared deeply about making a fun and balanced class.

But guests are a part of the game, aren't they? Yes, they are, but not every feature of the game should be usable everywhere. The Linus pets can shrink enemies, and many bosses have Shrink resist. Some quests have healing pads, while others have none, making the quest harder. DmK v1 is a part of the game, as well, and it's banned from the Inn - because it's horribly unbalanced and would bypass the mechanics of an incredible amount of fights.

Lately, I've been fighting Pandora EX a lot, as many other people have been as well. It's a beautifully designed fight, both visually and mechanically, and seeing the variety of strategies and optimization is amazing. Participating in conversations about how best to defeat her is some of the most fun I've had recently. Seeing and hearing about people who don't understand her mechanics and don't learn the fight RNG their way through with guests (when the original gauntlet should've banned guests anyway!) hurts me for more than one reason. Using guests means a player is bypassing and ignoring the interesting mechanics of a fight which had a lot of time and effort put into it - not to mention how it cheapens the strengths and weaknesses of the player classes. When I hear a new class has defeated a challenge, I want to know how that class did it - not about how Sir Leon or Artix or Nythera or Mazurek carried a player through the challenge.

Guests do not have a place in the Inn at the Edge of Time. (Also, lore-wise, it makes zero sense to have them there. An extra-dimensional area with a multitude of copies of the hero that the hero can't remember when they leave ... and they bring all their friends with them?)
DF  Post #: 3
2/20/2020 11:41:54   
Dratomos
Member

I somewhat agree. And I love that some challenges punish you with insta-death if you bring guests, like Sir Bearginion or Super Sentog in their respective challenges, because it makes you think out of the box.

I mean, with Doom Knight/Technomancer, fully trained Pet Dragon and Sir Leon, you can stun almost every boss in inn and that makes some fights easy. Or have up to 70% chance to stun with other classes.

Although I am guilty of using guests too, as I haven't figured out how-to defeat Engineer in Apex tower without them. And in lower levels, Guests make a huge difference in defeating Inn -challenges.
DF  Post #: 4
2/20/2020 11:47:51   
Mooselim
Member

Honestly, I don't think the Inn should be considered at lower levels since it's really more balanced around endgame, and intended to be the endgame of DF when you're at max level.

You did bring up a good point, though. I'm going to repeat again that there are blatantly overpowered strategies like the ones you brought up, with DMK/Techno allowing you to stun 200 immo res enemies for multiple turns. Something like this shouldn't be allowed in the inn, in my opinion.
Post #: 5
2/20/2020 11:47:54   
dawnchere
Member
 

I am normally a lurker in the forums, but the issue of guests at the Inn have become such an egregious issue that I feel compelled to create an account to give my feedback on the inherent problems it causes.

I strongly agree with the above posts on many points, and even though they have been repeated ad nauseam but I would like to add on my thoughts as well. Inn challenges are supposed to be a CHALLENGE, not a fun get-together and to have tea for three. Allowing guests defeats one of the main purpose of the inn (literally the challenge aspect), and severely dilutes the intensity of the fights. Understand that just like the above posters, I'm not for the total removal of the guest mechanic in-game; in fact I believe it to be a very useful tool especially early game when you may need help with story progression. However, guests should just stay where they belong, right in the story.

Let me give you an analogy on my thoughts regarding guests - they are like training wheels on bicycles. When you've just started out in the game, your damage output is low, or you've not yet familiarised yourself with the mechanics/skills of your class, guests are one best assistance that you can utilise to help carry you through the game. However, using guests to abuse and circumvent the mechanics of Inn bosses when you're at the endgame just paints a picture of a fully grown person riding an adult-sized bike with the training wheels still attached on. You would imagine by that point in time, the cyclist would have already outgrown the usage of those training wheels. Similarly, the idea of using guests at a point in the game when you're supposed to be sufficiently proficient is something that does not make much - if any - sense.

At the end of the day, my stance on this is simple: guests should just be outright banned in the Inn. However in the scenario that it is not possible to do so, I do have a couple of suggestions that I feel may help alleviate the balance problems brought about by the usage of guests in the Inn:

1. Implementation of multi attacks
One of the most straightforward ways of including guests in the balancing of Inn bosses is to have them deal damage to all members in the party. This basically removes what I feel is the most glaring problem of guests at the inn: the RNG. Of course it does not reduce the fact that having guests continue to allow for greater damage output than fighting solo, but that could be adjusted accordingly with damage scaling.

2. Increased healthpool for bosses per guest
Bringing back the increased health for bosses when guests are utilised is another way to balance out the increased damage/skills brought to the table by guests. We have to take into account that because DF is a turn-based game, skills such as stuns make it such that the game ends up gravitating steeply in favour of the player. An increased healthpool would help to counteract the increased power level of guests. It would also be ideal to have all hits by the boss target only the player's character as this increases the opportunity cost of guests, while drastically reducing the RNG aspect of the fights.

Post #: 6
2/20/2020 12:04:29   
BluuHorseOfficial
Member


Something I would like to add (I am making way too many edits) is that the Inn was never designed as something meant for everyone to do. Nobody is forcing a player to finish the story asap, grid to level 90, get best in slot gear, and do Inn Challenges; that's only recommended to newer players who want something to do after they actually do the story. In my honest opinion, every part of a game isn't for everyone. If you don't like grinding for Defender's Medals during wars, then don't; the developers are releasing alternative gear which is easy to get and slightly less strong which is easily accessible to all players. Similarly, if you don't like Inn Challenges, then don't do them. They're not a necessity for progressing the game. The Lore they provide can also be understood by talking to someone interested in it. They provide very nice gear, but so do quests; the Ribbon of Compromise, the Grub Necklace, the Extra Crispy/Glory weapons are good examples. The Inn was designed for people who enjoy challenging aspects of a game, who like to be pushed against the hardest of challenges and come out victorious by figuring out the mechanics and dealing with them through careful strategizing and planning. Inn Challenges are only one aspect of the game and are only meant for people that enjoy them. Since they provide strong rewards too, it is very unfair that people who literally do not care about the mechanics of the fight can steamroll it to acquire them. Guests completely remove the "Challenge" aspect of the Inn and pretty much reduce Inn releases to "that one release every month that you can kill in ten minutes that gives good rewards".

I would like to provide an example of how Guests are unfair to get my point across. Think of the hardest Duo fight in the game: Ancient Duo. It's a challenge based on dodging Gananana's devastating debuffs to decrease the damage of its nuke while subsequently paying attention to Augahim's rotation so you don't dodge the wrong skills and get beat up. However, this doesn't matter when you can just invite, say, Rhubarb and Mazurek to help you out. They can sit there and eat Gananana's debuffs; they can blind Augahim and make him miss his devastating Boulder throw with their blinds/shields which don't need to hit to activate. They can even face tank the Mega Beam and pave the way to victory with just a little bit of luck. All you lose is a few thousand pieces of gold but the Duo is dead and that's all that needs to be said. The same can be said for Aegis and Sir Leon, too.

As for my first post saying to not comment about single-player games "not needing to be balanced", Marthe raises a very good point about the amount of time that goes into class balance and testing and how utterly disrespectful it is to the devs and players that work on the classes and the players that spend lots of time testing and giving feedback about them to make them just right for the game. Another comment I've heard is about how single-player games require (or should require) no ability or skill to play and should be something you can simply do when you're bored, which is also very disrespectful and degrading to the time that developers put into the game and is not an excuse for being allowed to bring overpowered things into the endgame.

quote:

Although I am guilty of using guests too, as I haven't figured out how-to defeat Engineer in Apex tower without them. And in lower levels, Guests make a huge difference in defeating Inn -challenges.
Guests make a huge difference in defeating Inn Challenges at all levels, and I think that actually counts as a point against them. Furthermore, the Inn is designed for the Endgame, sure, you can do challenges at low levels, but unless you're cheesing them with guests, you still need to be proficient with your class and gear.

I agree that "If you aren't good enough to do something, then you shouldn't" is a somewhat rude and blunt argument for the cause, but the game gives you plenty of gear and opportunities to improve your skill with your chosen class or against the given challenge, and you can always keep getting better. Nobody's able to beat challenges on their first try, not even long-time players, but we, who love the Inn and the content it has to offer, keep on trying until we perfect our rotations and are able to conquer the challenge fairly. If this is not something you're into, don't worry, you don't have to! There's plenty of other content in the game that you can choose to do instead to keep you occupied and you can always come back later when you feel more confident or prepared! The Inn isn't going anywhere!
DF  Post #: 7
2/20/2020 12:06:32   
Vikken101
Member

Yeah i agree with a lot of what's being said. But yeah, i agree with the mindset that not everything has to be for everyone, if the only way you can beat a challenge is with guests. If you dont like challenges that is fine, i your are really into the story for example. The only things i would recommend doing in the Inn, is to read the book there, pay attention to the map in the tavern, and do the Exalitia Tower for additional lore(which is already quite a bit easier then a standard challenge). I think its good to learn the mechanics of fights, and the feeling is great when you actually beat challenges with just your own char and pet. If one cannot understand fights/mechanics or need help, there are a lot of resources like discord or the endgame wiki that can help you.

So while i think inn guests are probably not gonna get banned from the Inn of Time, i do think they should be banned from "Extreme" challenges, its in the name. They are suppose to make your bring out your a-game in terms strategies, and seeing Pandora Ex and the Gauntlet be first beaten with guests(which were suppose to be banned in the latter case originally), i feel does a disservice to the Ex challenges imo. Which are feel are suppose to be about finding the right classes and rotations to beat them.

< Message edited by Vikken101 -- 2/20/2020 12:08:39 >
Post #: 8
2/20/2020 12:07:13   
Dratomos
Member

@Mooselim, yes usually Inn is meant for max level players. But using my alt characters, who I leveled up to play other two versions of Proclamation, I tried inn challenges. And with guests, I've managed to defeat for example Sepulchure, Caitiff and The Primordials with my lvl 45 alt, just because they can be stunned with Leon and Artix does a lot of damage and can heal himself easily.

@dawnchere, good ideas. Third option could be that if the players uses guests, the boss gets a one-shot-attack. That way it forces you to strategize a bit.

But on the other hand, I understand why some players, who have lower levels want to have guests in Inn. That gives them a chance to defeat some of the bosses and get good-level gear. And if they don't have access to guests and don't have time to farm themselves to lvl 90, 1/4 of the monthly releases are a bit pointless to them.

quote:

Guests make a huge difference in defeating Inn Challenges at all levels, and I think that actually counts as a point against them. Furthermore, the Inn is designed for the Endgame, sure, you can do challenges at low levels, but unless you're cheesing them with guests, you still need to be proficient with your class and gear.


That is true that it affects on all levels, but with higher levels you have a much bigger chance to defeat them alone, due to having access to better equipment. At lvl 90, you can reduce up to 95% of the damage of some of the elements, which you can't at lower levels. I'm not disagreeing with you, you make very good points, simply explaining what I meant.

< Message edited by Dratomos -- 2/20/2020 12:11:25 >
DF  Post #: 9
2/20/2020 14:00:05   
shrike
Member

I don't personally use guests, but I don't really care about guests in the Inn as a whole. Triple Trouble and the Dragon board are required for Destiny weapon progress, so if someone wants to cheese their way through with Dragonslayer and 2 guests the same way they do with normal questing, it's not that big of a deal. I would like to see guests removed from Pandora EX and similar extreme challenges, especially considering that the gauntlet wasn't initially supposed to allow guests through, as they're supposed to be challenges that aren't necessary and are mostly done for the achievement. I do like seeing diverse classes and builds in the Inn, and I think there is at least some problem in seeing people use the same 2 classes with the same 2 guests cheesing every challenge.

Otherwise, something I'd be interested in would be more boss mechanics that can interact with guests in some way, such as multis and different attack patterns. It would be extra effort to code in more attacks, but I think it would be interesting for challenge diversity and make guests more of a legitimate playstyle and not just a type of cheese that ignores boss mechanics.

DF  Post #: 10
2/20/2020 14:35:33   
xelessarx
Member

I actually think vice-versa, imo if guests will be banned from in, it should be that they'll be banned from "normal challenges". Harder challenges like EXPandora punishes using guests heavily already. I beat EXPandora as NDC with guests and Techno and cheesing but hell, I needed to do a lot of planning to get to this outcome. I had to follow Pandora's patterns and decide how I should act accordingly, like letting Leon stay low on health, so that Pandora can not heal much if she hits her with Inversion etc. I needed to do the battle many times to create the perfect route that gave the best outcome and finally, after then I could beat her. I am almost sure that it was as hard to do this with NDC & guests than classes like DmK and ChW solo if not harder.

On the other hand, I can see how easy it makes EXPandora when guests are combo'd with classes like ChW. As an NDC though, I think guests just put more depth to the battle at least against EXPandora. I had never done this much planning with any of the solo battles I have done in the inn and it was actually challenging. So in my opinion, as guests do not kill the challenge with EXPandora (At least, if you are not ChW or maybe DmK) and actually opens up new ways of strategizing, I think they should stay as long as they are not killing the challenge and there is a reward (And even a badge) in the end, unlike the gauntlet.

However with the easier challenges that you can just burst down with guests, I'd be pretty much okay if guests were restricted on those. And also stuff like Pandora Gauntlet, which just gives you the rights of flexing but not an in-game reward.

< Message edited by xelessarx -- 2/20/2020 14:40:19 >
Post #: 11
2/20/2020 14:47:13   
Vikken101
Member

@xelessarx

The devs look at nda as a sort of free trial, so i dont know why inn challenges should cater for nda's, seeing as it is optional endgame content.
Our comments are most based on players with da, since you have such an immense disadvantage in the Inn of Time already, that i would imagine few nda's would even try to take on Pandora Ex seriously. I would actually say that especially Ex challenges will not be designed around being possible to beat as a nda.

Btw, i also think you having to plan in detail what to do, is a result of Pandora in general and it being the most difficult Inn challenge, is like that, guests or no.

< Message edited by Vikken101 -- 2/20/2020 14:51:42 >
Post #: 12
2/20/2020 16:47:14   
Mooselim
Member

I agree with what Shrike said. While I wouldn't personally mind a blanket ban from the inn at large, considering it's supposed to be challenge content - I don't think it should be banned from the first two boards at the least, as those are more beginner friendly. I think turning the focus to what Shrike suggested and what I briefly mentioned is a good idea, in that it should be banned from challenge content only like Extreme challenges and Duos, not necessarily from the inn at large.
Post #: 13
2/20/2020 17:53:50   
TFS
Helpful!


While I agree with the points being made here, can you guys just... chill out? Please? It feels like there's one of these discussions every week now, where people spam complaints on a forum they know the devs read. The constant negativity is getting really tiresome, and this is from someone who agrees with you. There's only one person who programs this entire game and I can't imagine it's any less tiresome for a developer than it is for just another player. Feedback is one thing, but now you guys are just digging up old stuff to complain about. Please ease up a little lol

< Message edited by TFS -- 2/20/2020 17:57:01 >
DF  Post #: 14
2/20/2020 18:17:03   
ballistik
Member

I pretty much agree with everyone besides xelessarx.

I will try not to repeat the others. But I will give an example with Pandora EX.

Verly spend a lot of time developing the mechanics of the fight after the gauntlet feedback. Dove made amazing animations and art. They worked hard and produced a fight that had super interesting mechanics, was esthetically beautiful and is probably right now the hardest fight in the game.

Within an hour of the fight being released, it was already cheesed with a guest strategy. The guest strategy pretty much disregarded most of the mechanics of the fight. It also meant you could only see 1-2 phases of pandora. Guests pretty much disregarded all the hard work being done. You wouldn't need to examine how the fight works or even enjoy the art as much. This is true for most Inn fights. You can ignore the way their mechanics interact, cause the effects will be placed on the guests. And these guest strategies are usually dependent on a lot of coin flip rng.

On the other hand, people that wanted to do the challenges without guests, are still talking about it a week later, discussing mechanics and just appreciating all the thought put into this challenge. The community has been super active and gathered together, creating spreadsheets and whatnot. But guess what, only a handful of people actually participate in this, cause a lot of people have already cheesed it with guests and do not care more, since they've completed the challenge.

To me, it's pretty clear how disabling guests in the Inn will make players actually engage with the challenges for much longer and appreciate Verly's and Dove's work.

Another aspect is that for players who actually do spend a lot of time to come up with a proper way to do the challenge, it still feels a bit disheartening that some people can just cheese the fight.

I also agree with the above points about the fact that the Inn should be a place for challenges and it's okay if not everyone can do it. It's an endgame place and I'd argue everyone can complete the challenges without guests if they spend enough time learning the game mechanics and classes.

The Inn is one of the best things that happened to this game, but to keep it that way, we need to make sure it keeps its challenge purpose. I think banning guests at least for Extreme fights is definitely the way to go. For fights that they are not banned, the bosses should either get mechanics to deal with them or at least the penalty for guests should be increased (not just 50% dmg increase).

@TFS I don't think people here are complaining or being negative.

< Message edited by ballistik -- 2/20/2020 18:23:29 >
DF  Post #: 15
2/20/2020 18:39:00   
Marthe
Member
 

@TFS That's a pretty good point. While I have been sitting on my opinions for a while and felt the urge to post about something I feel strongly about, it also slipped my mind that this might not be the best time. I freely admit that I'm used to playing bigger games, and that it's sometimes difficult to remember that Verlyrus is one person, what with how much he does. On that note, I want to make it clear that - though it could come off that way - I (and hopefully other people here) aren't trying to just sit around and disparage design choices every week, or anything like that. In fact, I have immense faith in Verlyrus's game balance ability, which is partly why I felt the need to bring up something I personally consider egregious. I just want to make it clear that my intent is to make one of my opinions known when I haven't done so before here. I'm not complaining for the sake of complaining or for the sake of trying to make the game be how I want it to be. If there do end up being changes, no matter what they are, I'm perfectly fine accepting them, and if anything I've said came off badly or as rude and directed towards Verlyrus, then I deeply apologize. That was absolutely the furthest thing from my mind (I was annoyed in the first place in main part because of how the usage of guests cheapens all the time and effort the devs put into these challenges).
DF  Post #: 16
2/20/2020 18:49:23   
ballistik
Member

Just to reiterate what Marthe said, I sincerely hope that threads like this don't put more pressure on Verly. I don't think that was the intention. I think people here stated multiple times how appreciative they are of the game design. I myself decided to post, since I haven't been a part of this discussion before.

So yeah, I'm sorry if this discussion seems negative or demanding. It's not trying to be, I think some people are just very passionate about this topic.
DF  Post #: 17
2/20/2020 18:50:47   
shrike
Member

Have to agree with the above. Dove and Verly do amazing work on the game, and while sometimes I do want to give feedback when I think something needs to be changed, the overall game is amazing. I don't think this thread strictly needs to be a call to action, although the OP might be worded like one. I'm down with just talking about aspects of the game with other players rather than demanding an update to the game engine right away in response to this thread.
DF  Post #: 18
2/20/2020 22:27:42   
FMan
Member
 

I don't agree with most of the people here.
Banning guests can make some people not being able to complete challanges. ( Pride especially, without guests, will be extremely hard ).
There are people who hunt for the challange ( and they can always not use guests ) , and people who hunt for the items in the end .

First , guests dont have any resist, which makes then paper if they get hir , and tripples the damage of the boss, so it doesn't help as much as some may think. ( Especially lately with high bonus bosses, which even -80 bonus from pirate wont always work, and its 80, good to keep you updated , not sure if the creator of the post even checked it out , and only for 3 turns , while the cd is longer, the rest of the protection is made by -50 for few turns, -20 bonus -20 boost, -20 boost , and some turns may even be unprotected, and the guests will get hurt badly ) . No offence ofc.


Second Its true that the devs work hard on the mechanics of the challanges, but those who want to enjoy it can do it already right now without using the guests, Idk why closing options seem good to some of the community, gotta take a look on every player, some have the time to invest figuring out mechanics ( god bless you xD ), some read mechanics and fight solo, some do a few rounds to understand in overall how the fight goes and use guests to clear it to get the reward so they can keep their gears up to date, or some just don't have access to DA/DCs stuffs and can't complete it at all without guests.

No need to nerf them ( some of them may go back to the challange if they have time/better resources ), but really why closing that option? Except some people who lose from closing it, nobody actually wins, it just makes other players not compliting challanges ( some of them already replayed about the frustration that they don't feel respected by the players of the challanges , who ask for an extreme bosses at the story which they can't/ find it hard to claim, closing the inn for X amounts of players between the spectrom of feeling hard at the story, to hardcore inn players isn't gonna do any good ) .

P.S lately every week some players ask to nerf stuffs which help many players, and really unfair to those. ( For example CW nerf, which is totally uneeded, not sure why hes being ranked as the same as doom knight, while DK clears stuffs why easier, CW needs a few runs, spesific strategy/ gears , and even they he usually may survive only 1-3 more turns ( at the moment he wins, theoretically could barely keep dragging the fight ), and some may even depend on RNG).


The point is its not a good idea to close options, there are other players in the game beside hardcore in challangers who replay in the forum, so gotta consider about every player type and try to have as many options as possible open so that more players will be able to enjoy as many aspects of the game as possible .






Post #: 19
2/20/2020 22:59:50   
Mooselim
Member

@FMan Challenges are just that - challenges. They are supposed to be hard with good rewards, they are supposed to be mechanically challenging and demanding yet rewarding. Although, the reward is more of a cherry on top, but it's a really nice cherry to have. While it's objectively true that guests make a boss do more damage, at the same time that damage isn't always directed towards the player - the mechanics and effects of the boss have a 66% chance to be directed towards the guest instead of the player, and the player's HP is all that really matters. The resists of the guests and how paper-weak they are doesn't matter. Especially when you can do gross strategies like a 3 turn stun on a 200 immobility enemy. Ultimately, guests make challenges easier and more RNG reliant.

And frankly, I might be in the minority here but I don't think that people who don't want to put the effort into fighting those challenges deserve their rewards. There shouldn't be a cheap and easy strategy, a "press this button for the best items in the game" button when it is a challenge arena. I'm exaggerating obviously, but only to illustrate my point. My argument can be summed up as this. Basically, If something is overpowered in a game, it should be addressed instead of just left in because you can choose not to use it.

I'd like to repeat my point that I made in my last post, in that I'd be more for a blanket ban from extreme fights and duo challenges then a ban from the inn at large, or mechanics in future bosses that address guests.


I would also like to add that I donít think NDAís should be considered when balancing the inn, judging from what Verlyrus has said on discord, and that DC gear is not required for the inn, and all of the inn save maybe Pandora EX can be completed NDC.

< Message edited by Mooselim -- 2/20/2020 23:08:27 >
Post #: 20
2/21/2020 2:14:49   
BluuHorseOfficial
Member


I don't think anyone in this thread is being negative towards Dove a d Verlyrus' effort, though, TFS, we're negative towards guests, sure, but one of our arguments against them is that they prevent the player from appreciating the time and hard work put in by said developers into making the Inn a fun challenge arena. I'm personally not trying to degrade the work of the developers, I've said on multiple threads that I highly respect and value their work and the fact that their work doesn't get properly appreciated because of guests is a thing that irks me.

@FMan
quote:

Especially lately with high bonus bosses, which even -80 bonus from pirate wont always work, and its 80, good to keep you updated , not sure if the creator of the post even checked it out , and only for 3 turns

https://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21462550
https://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21931193
I did, in fact, check it out, and both of these pages say that it's a - 70 BtH debuff. Do not insult people who were providing correct statistics and say that they don't know what they're talking about, please.

quote:

Second Its true that the devs work hard on the mechanics of the challanges, but those who want to enjoy it can do it already right now without using the guests, Idk why closing options seem good to some of the community, gotta take a look on every player, some have the time to invest figuring out mechanics ( god bless you xD ), some read mechanics and fight solo, some do a few rounds to understand in overall how the fight goes and use guests to clear it to get the reward so they can keep their gears up to date, or some just don't have access to DA/DCs stuffs and can't complete it at all without guests.
This argument has been countered earlier in the thread. It's an issue of game balance at large. Ignoring something overpowered doesn't remove it from the game and would still be an overpowered thing that anyone can use to completely demolish the challenge aspect of what is supposed to be a challenge. I also mentioned that the Inn is not meant for every player. It's meant for people who like challenges and want to get rewards to help them defeat more challenges as they get enjoyment out of challenging content. People who don't like them can still play the story just as well without having to touch them. The story provides rewards that are, at times, on par with Inn rewards in some aspects while only being slightly weaker or having a different focus or niche. You're not losing anything by skipping the Inn if you don't like it. Also, the Inn is an arena designed around endgame content and NDA is a free trial of the game basically so I really don't think the content should be balanced around an NDA perspective. Besides, there's an amazing YouTuber called NDA Gaming who has done several challenges as a NDA player without guests.

quote:

P.S lately every week some players ask to nerf stuffs which help many players, and really unfair to those. ( For example CW nerf, which is totally uneeded, not sure why hes being ranked as the same as doom knight, while DK clears stuffs why easier, CW needs a few runs, spesific strategy/ gears , and even they he usually may survive only 1-3 more turns ( at the moment he wins, theoretically could barely keep dragging the fight ), and some may even depend on RNG).
That was because of the sheer influx of extremely easy single Inn fights which made ChW look much stronger than other classes. Because of its relative strength it was perceived to be overpowered and people wanted nerfs. Also, an autostun on an offensive class is pretty disgusting.

Also, Inn challenges can become easier over time with the release of new gear or changes to pets or new item specials or the like. You can always wait for cool new stuff to be released that makes the challenge you have in mind easier and try your luck against it.

I have to say I agree with Shrike's point that they could be banned from the first two challenge boards as those provide items for Destiny Weapons and serve as an introduction to the Inn, so having guests allowed for them could be beneficial (except Undead Duo ofc).

I also agree that if the enemies had skills that targeted the player and guests at the same time like Uthuluc does, then the increased damage would be distributed somewhat evenly, actually posing a threat to the player still. Increasing the health pool of monsters per guest also seems like a nice solution if they were to be allowed for the Inn challenges. Or, challenges like Leorilla who get stronger as guests die could be implemented, making the player want to keep them alive as long as possible.

< Message edited by BluuHorseOfficial -- 2/21/2020 2:15:15 >
DF  Post #: 21
2/21/2020 5:52:29   
FMan
Member
 

First about checking in the web- it's not always up to date, equip pirate armor in game and see, what I said about its debuffs is up to date ( used it recently for pride and pandora ), -80, yet unspamable, and for the recent challanges- not always enough alone, isnt that op.


P.S about CW- the auto stun alloes him to stay alive 1 more turn and do about 1.1k damage with gambit ( without the crit addition ), and it consumes 1 soul thread , which is extremely valuable ( gambit and death resist are the important ones usually ). It helps mostly in stories, didnt use it in challanges here because of the price of a soulthread was too much, and CW is supet paper, cant dodge, -60 all resist for that gambit, easly stunned ( outside of death resist with a soulthread mode, which will most likely be the case when attacked ) it has a lot of major flaws ( there are many challanges Ill prefer epoch/ swot/ cryptic/ascendant over CW with its 1 turn stun , its defantly not disgusting, its a part of his almost doesn't exist
Defensive arsenal, and mostly an offensive storyline move in some situations).

2. .your explanation is from hardcore inn player view, not every player is like this, you can choose to not equip ( for example, in here I cleared the ancient duo with a solo SWOT , also did the unraveled with him, domanion with a solo ascendant, and the list goes on ), you can always enjoy the inn without the guests, it really shouldn't bother the hardcore inn players thay there is an easier solution sometimes ( for egomaniac of the floor example, guests make it harder , its not always the better strategy ).

3. Its a game, nothing in here is a must do, we do it for fun, for some people the option of guests in the inn brings them fun ( accomplishing stuffs with guests/ rewards ), so I think we shouldn't take it away from them.



< Message edited by FMan -- 2/21/2020 6:01:23 >
Post #: 22
2/21/2020 6:43:21   
xelessarx
Member

While I don't agree with some points @FMan raises, there is one point that is absolutely true.

quote:

The point is its not a good idea to close options, there are other players in the game beside hardcore in challangers who replay in the forum, so gotta consider about every player type and try to have as many options as possible open so that more players will be able to enjoy as many aspects of the game as possible .


Inn by itself already mostly adresses to endgame players apart from some exceptions, which excludes a big amount of players already. Banning guests from the inn as a whole would only cause more people to be excluded as there are players who either can't beat some bosses without guests (Mostly NDC players) or simply just prefer playing with guests more. I think that it is also important that there will be more than a bunch of overgeared/overpowered players to enjoy the challenges so that Verly and Dove's works can get appreciated more widely.

I think some extremely hard challenges are okay now and then. But the inn has taken the route of being harder than usual for the "most" part recently (ExPandora, Pride, Apex, Gauntlet). These challenges already are harder/almost undoable for more casual endgamers at this point. And they restrict many classes from use, even, so people can't even enjoy them with their favourite classes. Banning the guests is just another step added towards making the game more of a chore/less fun for these more casual players and I can't see any advantages to that (as you can already simply choose not to get the guests if that is what you wish) in the long run, aside from boosting some hardcore endgamers' self satisfaction over being one of the now fewer people beating the bosses. This is why I suggest that now and then there could be extreme version challenges without rewards that prohibit guests, so that everyone can enjoy the challenges as they wish without missing from stuff and do these extreme guestless versions if that is what they wish/their playing style.


Post #: 23
2/21/2020 15:15:32   
BluuHorseOfficial
Member


@FMan, I meant the Pirate Guests, Rhubarb and Mazurek lol, that's why I linked their pedia pages with my post.
DF  Post #: 24
2/22/2020 21:13:45   
FMan
Member
 

First, there is a huge diff between pirate guests and guests in overall, and yo be noted, -70 bonus in the recent inn challanges in the cost of +70 crit isn't a good move usually, cause they have high bonuses/bonus buff, while -70 is nice in some turns, boosting crit can backfire. Also its not loopable .in addition to that, their DPS arent that good, and lately many bosses has a heal, so gotta take a look at that too.
Just few notes about it ( in addition to the obvious ones that they increase the boss's damage).



And nvm that, see the other points mentioned earlier . About guests stuns, nerfed lately so its invalid anymore ( personally didnt like, but I guess they try to balance between hardcore inn players to casual ones requests ).




< Message edited by FMan -- 2/22/2020 21:27:03 >
Post #: 25
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