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Balance Overhaul: Stats For Guests and proper +Enemy damage

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5/15/2020 1:14:32   
Legendary Ash
Member

As monsters starting with Catiff from Calamity have Str/Dex/Int/End/Luk scaled to Level, I think that its the right time to address the widening gap between the Hero and Guests as the +60% to Enemy damage is not scaled in a manner that is consistent with the Hero's offense/defense as stats progresses through build and equipment.

A Guest's Str/Dex/Int Stat should be scaled to Cha through MIN(Cha, Stat) to receive Str's non-critical damage, Dex's damage bonus with DoT/HoT applied, Int's bonus to critical damage multiplier.
Their base Hp/Mp/Crit/Bonus/Defense would be scaled to level and Crit/Bonus/Defense may be at different ratios for each Guest.
Guests should inherit the Hero's Elemental Resistance and Luk/End/Wis Stat to receive Luk's bonus Crit/Direct Hit and Melee/Pierce/Magic Defense, End's Immobility Resist, Wis' Health Resistance/bonus to Hit.

By implementing the above changes, the immediate benefit in performance is that a Guest will always match the Hero in defense, the average among Crit/Bonus/Defense will be the same but at different ratios than the Hero and offense that never surpasses the Hero, this will permit proper balance to delivered in added Enemy damage per Guest, I recommend a +100% per Guest that is split between base and a Cha scaled portion modeled after a Hero's weapon and Stat/10.

@Participants: Its advised to read all the contents in the posts below this if one intend to participate in this thread, this will save me from making extraneous replies to redirect to the specific post that covers it, and one will have the full understanding as I will try to address the balance concerns of each participant in this thread, how my suggestion may resolve it, and shine a light on the faults in their own thinking if any, the best I can.

< Message edited by Legendary Ash -- 5/16/2020 14:21:49 >
AQ  Post #: 1
5/15/2020 2:17:09   
ProbablyCallum
Member

Guests are already overpowered and this is yet another prime example why suggestion threads should not have been allowed back on the forums.
DF  Post #: 2
5/15/2020 2:25:45   
TFS
Helpful!


 Guests really do not need a buff. Effectively tripling your HP and reducing the chance of getting targetted with a debuff from 100% to 33% is already extremely skewed in the player's favor in a manner that does not even come close to matching the downside (the +60% damage you mentioned earlier). Inheriting the player's resistance would effectively further double guest HP for the average level 90 player (and would effectively triple it for a player with optimal gear), which heavily outweighs your proposed enemy damage boost. Guests already provide a ridiculous advantage as they are; suggesting that they be buffed further and turned into player characters is extremely implausible. I do not think this is a very well-thought-out idea and would suggest taking a player's potential stat values into account before thinking of ways said stat values could be used to adjust the way anything besides the player scales.
DF  Post #: 3
5/15/2020 14:21:12   
Legendary Ash
Member

@Post #2 Without providing any evidence to support your claim of Guests being overpowered and this being a prime example, the point of the your statement seems to be is to vent out your personal disagreement with the Mods decision to allow suggestions, both do not provide constructive criticism at the very least.

@Post #3 Initially Guests increase defense through essentially tripling the Hero's Hp by 3x, however if the Hero's resistance contributes a /.5 to Hp for the Hero only, thus the Hp of the Guest relative to the Hero's is 1/2, which means that their offense based on survivability is reduced by the same value and therefore +50% Enemy damage would be the correct modifier assuming 50% in resistances.

The +60% Enemy damage assumes the Hero has 40% resistance, which is the average between 0% min to the 80% max elemental resistance, it fails to represent the range of +100% Enemy damage at 0% resistance typical of a Lv 1 Hero to a maximum of +1% Enemy damage at 99% from both elemental and All resistance typical at a close to Lv cap Hero.
Additionally resistance is variable depending on equipment if it provides any at all as some don't, its difficult to balance by assuming a certain value given the choice between stronger individual -Elements or weaker -All.

The issue with additive debuffs will not occur if the skill standards were consistent between the Hero and Guest.
For example if Stuns had a turn ratio of at least 1 duration:3 cooldown there will be no invincibility and matches the +100% Enemy damage per Guest, the same ratio is applied to Bonus and Damage debuffs so that in both situations where the individual durations are all stacked for 3x on 1 turn or distributed at 3 turns at 1x will produce the same result.

My primarily a balancing suggestion rather than a buff, addresses this resistance assumption problem by making defense consistent between Hero and Guest, and along with the inherited Stats scaled to Cha, it properly balances out the +Enemy damage and Guest output relative to the Hero.

< Message edited by Legendary Ash -- 5/16/2020 1:32:55 >
AQ  Post #: 4
5/15/2020 15:15:05   
Dratomos
Helpful!


 Those suggestions wouldn't work at all and would be hard to implement.

For example, our Hero can switch equipment and go from +69 all-resistance to a Uragiri build same turn. Guests wouldn't be able to switch them like that.

Also, let's pretend Verly would buff guests like you suggest. So we gould have two quests, (and some of them can already deal huge damage like our Dragon) With at +69 All resistance that cannot be stunned that now deal even more damage if our Hero has a high CHA -build. And with guests, you can even stun enemies that have 200 Immobility and also deal huge amounts of damage on the next turn, making fights too easy. So that would mean that Verly would have to ban guests from Inn battles which are the only reason you would even think to buff guests, since normal quests have no need for them.
DF AQW  Post #: 5
5/15/2020 17:37:52   
TFS
Helpful!
quote:

The +60% Enemy damage assumes the Hero has 60% resistance, it fails to represent the range of +100% Enemy damage at 0% resistance typical of a Lv 1 Hero to a maximum of +1% Enemy damage at 99% from both elemental and All resistance typical at a close to Lv cap Hero.

Uh, what? +60% damage is added per guest regardless of how much resistance the player has. And increasing damage by 60% following a 60% damage reduction does not equal a net 0% damage reduction if that's what you're trying to say; 60% of 40% is 24%, which means that at 60 resistance and +60% damage the player will take 64% of the enemy's raw damage, equaling 46% damage reduction. Resistance and guest scaling aren't addition/subtraction functions as you seem to think they are, they're percent-based. If that's not what you meant then I'm sorry, but I've re-read the post several times and that's the most coherent thing I can deduce from it.

quote:

The issue with additive debuffs will not occur if the skill standards were consistent between the Hero and Guest.
For example if Stuns had a turn ratio of at least 1 duration:3 cooldown there will be no invincibility and matches the +100% Enemy damage per Guest, the same ratio is applied to Bonus and Damage debuffs so that in both situations where the individual durations are all stacked for 3x on 1 turn or distributed at 3 turns at 1x will produce the same result.

So, wait, you're proposing that every single class in the game be rebalanced to "match" guest skills? What? I don't think I have to explain why this is ridiculous, impractical, and just simple bad design, but I do think it's worth noting that the uptime and strength of status effects on every single class in the game are tailored to match that class's skill set and intended playstyle, as an intentional facet of balance; numbers are not just thrown around randomly like you seem to be implying they are. "Standardizing" the uptime of every single status effect on every single class would not only disrupt the way each class is balanced, either positively or negatively, it would drastically reduce the number of options the player has to have varied experiences with the gameplay for no logical reason. This is called bad game design and there is a reason effect standardization and samey-ness are actively avoided when new classes are made or revamped.

quote:

My primarily a balancing suggestion rather than a buff, addresses this resistance assumption problem by making defense consistent between Hero and Guest, and along with the inherited Stats scaled to Cha, it properly balances out the +Enemy damage and Guest output relative to the Hero.

No. See above.
DF  Post #: 6
5/16/2020 0:05:55   
Legendary Ash
Member

@Post #5 With programming experience, one can say this suggestion is no harder than whats required to make a Monster's stats/damage/Hp/Mp scaled to level.

A Hero's stats and resistance is dynamic, which is a programming term that means it values change immediately following an action to modify it like changing equipment, static is a term that means its values are set to a certain value initially and never changes like a Guest's max Hp and Mp that is based on the Hero's at the moment of inviting them to the party in the current game engine.

Modeled after the Hero, its only logical to have a Guest's stat values be dynamic and not static to respond to changes executed in combat and make stat debuffs functional as statuses in the foreseeable future.

Logic goes that if certain class can reduce an enemies' Immobility resistance why can't an enemy do that to address the Hero's/Guest's Immobility resistance.

In summary, Like Hero, Like Guest, Like Monster.

@Post #6 I think I explained very clearly how resistance changes the 1x Hp of the Hero's relative to 1x Guest's in the first paragraph directed at Post#3, the second paragraph you quoted is based on that.

I think you either missed or have ignored the entirety of the example of the ratio in bonus/damage debuffs. 1x is a debuff at maximum potency at a one turn duration, obviously potency and duration are directly affected by each other and power can be distributed at any value between them.

With that said, I have no idea why you think standardizing a ratio to prevent invincibility when Guests are at play would produce sameness, it does not produce that effect whatsoever.

Standards are an integral part of balance as its creates a foundation where all variability produced from it would be tied to mathematical sense, this is the only guaranteed method to keep variability in check as subjective attempts to gauge for balance in an RNG involved performance will not produce a 100% consistency.

Since you are thoroughly convinced that my suggestion is a pure buff as indicated in all your posts, its extremely likely that you don't understand how MIN works, in short its an overall nerf to Cha.

Currently a Hero can train Cha and none in Str/Dex/Int, the result is a Guest is stronger than the Hero and once again the +60% Enemy damage per Guest fails to represents it as the true value would be beyond +100% if properly represented.

MIN means that it takes the smaller of the two numbers in the (), that means Cha alone will not affect Guest damage if the Hero doesn't have Str/Dex/Int, it becomes mandatory for the Hero to train at least one damage stat and use a Guest whose attack type matches it for stat damage to become relevant.

If one makes the poor decision of a Guest's Str/Dex/Int scaling to Cha directly, that would mean it increases in a manner that is at a triple growth relative to the Hero training in one stat, namely in non-critical damage, damage bonus with DoT/HoT applied and bonus to critical damage multiplier.
AQ  Post #: 7
5/16/2020 0:07:15   
quickgold123
Member
 

 It seems that you're suggesting a buff to guests so that they're effectively equal to our hero. Problem is, bosses aren't balanced with a party of three equally powerful heroes in mind, as otherwise we would be allowed to invite other player characters as guests for all quests.

Right now, guests range from being a liability to being overpowered, depending on RNG. They're very effective as meatshields for tanking debuffs or hits, and not that much else. If anything, I would much rather see a change to guests that minimizes this RNG in some manner and improves their overall utility.
Post #: 8
5/16/2020 2:12:31   
Legendary Ash
Member

@Post #8 There is a skillset difference in that a Hero's class is more powerful due to multiple debuffs and potion stealing capabilities while the majority of a Guest's skillset are taken from non-DA classes, Artix's Paladin, Galanoth's Dragonslayer, Warlic's Mage and Sir Leon's Warrior.

Therefore a Guest can never match a Hero in skill capabilities, but in stats and a class' Attack skill damage they will be equals.

The DA only privilege of invite player characters is the strongest available option because of stacking duplicate debuffs and shouldn't be allowed for all quests.

In RNG currently Guests are ideal for the receiving end of debuffs because their offense is lower relative to the Hero's, while Hero is ideal for the receiving end of pure damage due to resistance, which extends the survival of Guests and their offense.

My suggestion would ensure a Guest's defense matches the Hero's and whose offensive stats scale to the Hero's based on Cha thereby minimizing this range of liability and to overpowered relative to their +% Enemy damage.
AQ  Post #: 9
5/16/2020 2:33:53   
TFS
Helpful!


 I didn't say that your suggestion was a buff to CHA. I said it was a buff to guests. Making guest damage reliant upon investing in stats that also increase your damage is a buff to guests, as it allows you to boost their damage without having to take stat points away from boosting your own damage. There is less of an opportunity cost involved when multiple functions are moved to a single variable. Making CHA less useful by giving its functions to something else is a "pure buff" to the end result, which is guests.

As you've demonstrated a preference for refuting statements that haven't been made over addressing rebuttals or accepting criticism, I will not post any more replies to this thread.
DF  Post #: 10
5/16/2020 11:31:46   
BluuHorseOfficial
Member


 Personally, I think that when used properly (which isn't hard to do at all), guests are highly overpowered and break the balance of the game as-is. As people have mentioned before, you can just use them as RNG meat-shields, as bait for enemy attacks that hinder you, while you do whatever you want with your class and remain untouched. They definitely do not need a buff, and personally, I think that implementing something of this scale would take a lot of time and effort. This game has only one coder who's overworked and has a lot on his plate, and this sort of change is going to bring nothing but bad outcomes.
DF  Post #: 11
5/16/2020 14:01:51   
arcanum37
Member

@Legendary Ash

This ain't AQ. I recommend getting more familiarised with how DF balance works before making suggestions like these.
AQ DF  Post #: 12
5/16/2020 14:52:12   
Legendary Ash
Member

@ Post #10 As you have demonstrated a preference for refusing to acknowledge and focusing on certain contents in my post, taking them out of context and even ridiculing at the objective concepts in my suggestions instead of attempting to acknowledge the current imbalance of Guests, I had expected you to soon cease your participation as its detrimental to both of us to spend time on each other.

So for the last time I'll address your failure to comprehend my content and the faults in your own statements whether you read it or not as there are others who will read it, here it goes... logic goes that a nerf to Cha is a nerf to Guests as they are directly related, even in the current form training Cha alone takes stat points away from training another stat that benefits the Hero so your claim is entirely invalid, the seventh paragraph of my reply directed at Post #6 already addressed the stat opportunity cost of MIN() as reworded in the following, to get any use out of Cha it will be mandatory to train a second offensive stat among Str/Dex/Int and for a Guest to get any use out of the Str/Dex/Int of the Hero, a skill's attack type will have to match the trained stat, this in short is a two fold nerf.

@Post #11 The contents in Post #8 already addressed another participant's similar balance concern of RNG making meatshields and baits for debuffs, it may be a good idea to give it a read.

When RNG is at fault for making Guests opportunistic meatshields and balance breakers, I point out its origin being the Enemies' targeting AI being different from the player's strategy, specifically that it doesn't attempt to take out the weakest target out of three calculated from the combination of Hp/Defense/Resistance that should take into account defense buffs from skills, it wasn't until two years ago that AE's Epicduel decided to change the Enemies' targeting AI from Random to the weakest between two players or one player and NPC ally to better mirror the player's strategy.

@Post #12 Is that you judging my qualifications to even make a balance suggestion based me only setting my AQ char to visible below my avatar?

Did you read all the contents of this thread?
Its sufficient to give a good read on how well I understand balance in the relevant games.

As with Post #2 your post does not provide constructive criticism.
AQ  Post #: 13
5/16/2020 17:05:56   
ballistik
Member

When 6 people have already told you that this isn't a good idea and no one has supported this, maybe you should consider whether it's more likely everyone else is wrong or you're in the wrong.

As TFS said, you're showing a pretty common quality seen here in the forums: not acknowledging arguments and just writing big paragraphs of repeating yourself.

Guests are not supposed to be as strong as your class, they are called guests for a reason.

I can't believe you don't understand how standardized effects break balance. Defensive classes usually have higher duration debuffs, offensive classes are the opposite. There needs to be variation in order for classes to not be all the same.

< Message edited by ballistik -- 5/16/2020 17:11:40 >
DF  Post #: 14
5/17/2020 8:21:42   
FMan
Member
 

 -1
I usually support buffs, but the guests system is just fine.
Our chars called :" The hero " (each ) for a reason, ofc guests cant be as strong as us.

Also - since the system atm work as is, why should we change it?

In addition, the devs got a lot on their plate, this feature won't do any good, and will take their time. So I think we would prefer other stuffs than this.


Lastly - none DA can kill every storyline boss ( some can even kill hard bosses in the inn at high lvl with BIS+strategy) while every DA can handle anything ( inn at high lvl ofc, yet every storyline boss is easy , including Siofra with the right class ). We really don't need a buff ( we dont need a nerf either ) just keep the system as is, makes sense.



< Message edited by FMan -- 5/17/2020 8:25:07 >
Post #: 15
5/17/2020 16:18:50   
Luckyjazzt
Member

I have a feeling that you're proposing this because it would make Inn Challenges easier. Thats the only reason I can think of because as FMan said, the story bosses are almost all pretty straightforward, even without a DA. If this is the case, there are 2 things you can do if you're struggling with an Inn Challenge. Level up, or change your strategy. They're all possible as is.
DF  Post #: 16
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