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RE: =DF= September 4th & 5th Design Notes: Arena at the Edge of Time: Chaos Lord Escherion

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9/5/2020 15:19:15   
Rafiq von den Vielen

Frigus: Faust is from AQW? (admittedly I've never grown into playing AQW but... he didn't strike me as from somewhere else at all) O_o

DemonicDarkwraith: I love that idea. A board not catering toward a pile of bosses from a single game but toward some of the more memorable ones all over the company... I would enjoy that. (As a long-time AQ veteran, creatures like Carnax would definitely be interesting renditions in a DF style. Maybe even Ultimon or the Seekrat despite their remembrance factor being lower than Big Ol' C*.)

*And yes I've tried to think of something that isn't already in one or another way in DF, hello Akriloth, Drakonnan...
Post #: 26
9/5/2020 16:38:46   
Baron Dante

I guess I might as well chime in on this topic while it's fresh:

I'm one of those people that have been saying that since the Inn allows funky shenanigans with timelines and whatnot, it would be fine to use it exactly for this kind of stuff.

The various AE games have iconic (and sometimes less iconic) stuff in them, but in the context of DF, it wouldn't make sense to inject them into the proper story. The Inn isn't that, so I think there's some leeway to have this sort of "fanservice" in there.

And hey, Escherion, in terms of AQW, isn't the worst thing to have. While people may have various opinions on AQW nowadays, he sort of represents an earlier era when AQW was just another game among the others, with still plenty of potential to be tapped into.

That being said, I actually see a few issues here, and the first one might not be what you expect. It's that... Kathool is one of the Chaos Beasts. You know, something we already HAVE as an Inn Challenge. I'd also say that a lot of the Chaos Beasts are extremely forgettable. That even extends to Escherion's Beast, which is literally just a Hydra. This is in strong contrast to Escherion himself, who, go figure, has an interesting skill set.

The bigger issue here is obviously how big of a chunk of future Inn releases would be used on just this particular theme, as others have stated. I personally don't mind that, especially since, as stated in the new DNs, it's not JUST this stuff, but I get where people are coming from. AQW stuff would be very hit-or-miss, clearly.

Personally, I think I'd prefer if the Chaos Beasts would be cut out of the equation, so we get multiple CLs done in one release... though I can't say I necessarily say I like the idea of them being combined into one fight at the end. (This would be especially tricky with some of them that would probably be more than one monster, like Vath or Xing and Xang I suppose) It would be nice if it was possible to have multiple fights featuring both the Lord and Beast in one go, but I guess that might be too much work, understandably so.

In the end, I'll just say that I personally enjoy these kind of crossovers as a whole, and do hope we see more of those in the future. (I personally like the idea of Drakonnan and his non-DF brother, Drakonnas being featured, as well as the more obvious choices of say, Carnax and uh, Valoth I guess?)
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 27
9/5/2020 19:09:37   
spirit of greed

Meh it's not as good as the Corrupted 7 was where we got to see how all the spirits looked like and all of their unique fighing styles while here we know more or less what will we get. Still i'm not against these types of releases in the future as Baron said the inn is the perfect place for these types of releases.

However 1 chaos lord in a month is taking too long, it's like more than 1 year. DF still got many cool bosses for the inn like give us an elemental orb board with all the orb saga bosses or a board where we fight against our allies (Uanta, Asj, Artix etc...). I'm all for seeing all the chaos lords in DF with Dove's art but like Baron said maybe cut the beasts and give us 2 chaos lords in every release to make it shorter? I mean Escherion was cool but the hydra not so much.

Long story short i would like to see more challenges from other games, not just from AQW but from MQ and AQ too. Unlike others i don't think a release once in a while with contests like these will harm DF but it really needs to be much shorter.
DF AQW  Post #: 28
9/5/2020 21:52:20   

I'm mostly fine on adding Chaos Lords and their Beasts, since I've never played AQW or thought about it much, and I view the Inn as something quite separate to the rest of DF. However, it does feel a bit much to have 14 Inn releases dedicated to something from another game, and I do like the flavor that DF-specific boss fights can add. Personally, I would prefer to only showcase a few select Chaos Lords, as suggested in the recent Design Notes. If 14 Chaos Lords or whatever must be shown, then perhaps two could be rolled out every inn release, much like the Corrupted 7 board.
Post #: 29
9/6/2020 0:07:06   


I think one of the Chaos AQW avatars here: https://www.aq.com/cms/images/Mechaprime%2000.jpg or a mashup of all three of them would work. The 13th lord of chaos isnt the Dragonfable player, its the AQW player. It would be cool to see our DF character as a the final Chaos Lord. Maybe it would be our character but it equipped a special non-useable Chaoruppted class

< Message edited by Kylorei -- 9/6/2020 0:08:48 >


AQ DF AQW  Post #: 30
9/6/2020 8:44:53   

I love Escherion's new art and want to see ALL the Chaos Lords in DragonFable style.

I usually pass the challenges but this week I became interested in playing.
I believe that bringing bosses and challenges focused only on DF's own content breaks the concept of multiverse that Inn At The Edge Of Time offers.

There are no problems when we see different versions of our character, so I believe there will also no problem when we see a different version of Alteon.

It would be good if each Lord came with a short story telling their biographies in the AQW universe so there would be no confusion. Perhaps a book that gets new pages after each battle is won would increase the number of rewards and give us one more goal in this challenge chain.

But I think 14 releases in a row focused on that is too much. I suggest to launch more than one Chaos Lord per release and take turns with other challenges.

< Message edited by DFT321 -- 9/6/2020 8:54:29 >
Post #: 31
9/6/2020 9:32:11   

As Darkwraith and others have said, I'd much prefer a board dedicated to AE content in general. Carnax and Valoth are good choices, and I'd personally like to see Tek, Ryuusei Cartwright (maybe even as Omega), and/or Braddock Steele somewhere there, too. If this isn't possible for whatever reason, though, I think the Chaos Lords should focus on only some fan favorites (the 13th Lord might be interesting? Maybe Vath, too), and if there's going to be more than a few of them, they should at least do away with the Beasts and release 2 at a time.
Post #: 32
9/6/2020 14:37:57   
EST OverLord

all of them should be added and the simplest way 1 chaos lord X whatever other type of inn challenge and then another all in a row would get boring but choosing just fan favorites would be a huge mistake


AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 33
9/6/2020 17:28:26   

I understand the concerns with bringing the chaos lords into the Inn At The Edge of Time. However, I think that if they're going to show up at all, that's the place to do it.

Furthermore, I'd like to add that some of the music in DF does come from AQW, and vice versa.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 34
9/6/2020 19:33:18   
EST OverLord

cross pollunating is what AE has allways done well as whit this anyone who doesnt like it clearly hasnt been around for long.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 35
9/6/2020 20:26:43   

How long is long for you? Iíve been around for around ten or so years, and I think Iíve made my feelings on this clear. As for crossovers being done well...eh, I donít really see where youíre coming from. The DF-AQW connection with Drakath doesnít seem to have went anywhere; it certainly didnít do anything for Dragonfable, and AQW went out of their way to release several releases on Drakathís backstory that heavily contradict DFís portrayal of him. Wargoth The Frozen doesnít seem to have taken into account any actual DF lore, only some designs. The only other crossover I can think of (I play DF more than the other games, so if somebody remembers any others, feel free to chip in) was the merging timelines we got in Frostval, which, assuming it was only a DF thing, was never mentioned again.

In any case, I think most peopleís issues here are with the sheer scale of the board, dislike towards AQW itself and concerns that weíre getting over a yearís worth of releases dedicated to it, which kinda reduces the amount of DF content weíre getting, too. A lot of people play Dragonfable because they like Dragonfable, not AQW, if that makes sense.
Post #: 36
9/7/2020 3:27:05   
Zork Knight

I had forgotten (or maybe just erased from my mind) that Wolfwing was a Chaos Lord

Yeah I'd much rather see his AQ incarnation in DF rather than what AQW did to him. Same for the rest of the Darkovia subrace leaders.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 37
9/7/2020 11:39:42   

For some time, I've been waiting for this Inn release, but never consider the implications many have pointed. And now thinking about it, 13-14 releases related to only a single board is way too much... Yet I don't think remove it from the equation is the solution, as it has been said it expand the concept of multiverse, and imo in a cool way.

Personally I think this conceptually give us more to think about it about the DF lore, unlike many have concluded. As OpprobriousPinecones said, DF and AQW narratives related to Drakath aren't consistent, and how I see it, they both have no reason to be consistent. DF write it's own version of the events on his own world, I've never thought DF Drakath would end the same way AQW Drakath (again, multiverse) making a story arc for DF with no final. But how a release full focused on AQW can help with this? The Inn released are meant for endgame content that test or capabilities and creativity, and reward us with items which are meant for help on more Inn releases and a few ocasions on DF regular content. Then I was wondering, could we get what happened to DF Drakath as a reward for beating one or two different challenges as an extra reward? I am not saying that Dove and Verly make a full cinematic or anything, just give us hints maybe as a new book on the libraseum of what happened to him after the chaos eye appeared, maybe a diary of himself and we got rewarded with pages or something like the last Maleoundrus release. While the fight might be base on AQW content, the reward could be a closure for a DF story.

That doesn't solve the problem of the multiple releases focused on this particular board, so indifferent of what I've suggested, this release might take a different release order, giving every 5-6 months a Chaos release content with two Chaos lords like some people have commented, the same way the first 6 C7 were delivered, while the rest take normal Inn releases. Giving the amount of work this might involve, the chaos beast might not be considered at all, while we get a Extreme version of every Chaos lord, I believe is more comfortable design a buff version of them, that program a entirely different Boss. This will make the Chaos lords board the most ambituous of all boards, and will take a few years to be fully complete, while it doesn't interfere that much with DF releated Inn content.

I have no idea of the amount of work this might be, and I believe this even might be too much to ask for, yet is the only way I imagine is possible to take most of the arguments exposed before on this thread.

For someone who fought against them in AQW it is a pleasure to fight them in DF format, adding more strategy to the fight unlike in AQW, where the fights are quicker (mostly), not to much strategy focused. I insist that, delete this release is not the solution, and it might be a wasted opportunity, so I hope this at least give some people something to think about.

< Message edited by Milenius -- 9/7/2020 13:22:45 >
Post #: 38
9/7/2020 13:27:00   

Yes i think we should add in all of the 13 chaos lords, but just as Inn challenges and not apart of the story of course
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 39
9/8/2020 1:30:17   
Primate Murder

Finally beat Escherion! (w/o the hydra)

Phew, that's one fight that kept me on the edge of my seat.
AQ DF  Post #: 40
9/8/2020 2:00:27   

Escherion I haven't beaten, I.... honestly don't understand what he does, even. I mean, besides devastate my health and have a really cool stick guest to fight with him. I dunno what his mechanics are and I can't work them out for the life of me. I'm pretty sure I could beat him if I could figure out what he actually *does*. :P

The Hydra was really fun, tho!

Honestly, in terms of difficulty, I liked the Hydra rather well. I... don't really like the "so hard you need to change your build to win" level challenges, and I get that I'm in a minority of ONE on that, but the Hydra was just right for me. He was really quite a challenge, I had to use all my resources and bring in guests and I finished by the skin of my teeth in part due to my favoring of DOTs as a form of damage.... but I did win, albeit after multiple losses as I got to know what he does, which, is fairly basic stuff, but I had FUN. It's been a dog's age since I actually *enjoyed* an Inn release, to be blunt, and it really made my night to have one I had fun playing.

Compare to like, Ayahunqui where the boss is just a literal god that I will never kill because I don't even begin to understand what it does or what the game wants me to do beyond "Rebuild yourself 100% around this boss and do tons of grinding to get equipment specifically for the sake of killing the Goat-Chinchilla of thunder." .... yeah, I'll take the Hydra.

Again, I know I'm basically the only person here of this opinion, I've read enough posts to be aware of this, but I like something more on the level of the Chaos Hydra to most of the other absolutely soul-crushingly difficult ones.

And I know that's the point of the Inn. I don't enjoy it, but I get it.

As for any complaints.... nah, don't have any. I mean, the Inn really ain't my thing, as you no doubt gathered, but it seems fine to me, I don't really get what other people are upset about from it, I liked it well enough, even if Escherion confuses me.

I say leave it as is. Honestly I'd be down for fighting more beasts if they're Hydra-like in how they work. (Read: If I can actually kill them while utterly sucking at the game, albeit with great difficulty on my part)
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 41
9/8/2020 3:02:27   
Primate Murder

@ raylas

The wiki has an Escherion page. The idea is to kill the staff within a turn or two of the respawn, then nuke Escherion as hard as posible - four or five repeats of the sequence were enough for me.

The hardest thing for me was to track what attack Escherion uses after the respawn. If you mess up, expecting the Inversion and start with low enough hp - Escher nukes you into oblivion (arrrrgh! that's so aggravatting when I had him down to a quarter or so of hp!). If you expect a nuke and heal yourself, Esher inverts your hp, leaving it at 1/3 - 1/4, then nukes.

Overall, it was a really fun and engaging fight that was possible to do without premium classes, but hard enough that it keeps your adrenalin pumping.
AQ DF  Post #: 42
9/8/2020 14:38:07   
Fire alandry

I didn't get to play the release, but as far as I can tell from YouTube- the art is cool as always. The mechanics are very interesting, too.

About the discussion... although I played AQW, it took me some time to recall which chaos beast accompanied each lord. 13 Lords is a LOT, so even remembering each one of them is a task. I'd love to see the DF version of them, just for the art, but I think it's unnecessary.
On the other hand, the fact that all of the lord theme is "Chaos", they do have a different appearance. I like the idea of facing all of them, and I don't think it'll be too annoying if we'll get 2 each time, maybe with other challenges between.

On a side note, I really loved the non-bosses challenges. Timetorn, Endless Invasion, Exaltia tower.. maybe, if some of the other Chaos Lord won't be bosses but quests of some sort, it'll be less boring even for those who don't like the Aqw content. I mean, who would thought I'll enjoy fighting 1000(!) TOGS, or finish the huge TimeTorn martrix full of... Elementals?
Don't get me wrong, I love the bosses, too. But this way we can get a littlr variety on this 13-part board.
DF  Post #: 43
9/10/2020 3:26:09   
Doomful Lord

I think it'd be fine honestly. I like the chaos aesthetic personally. As long as it could be done in an interesting way for each fight and brought interesting equipment I don't really mind in any way. Though I also don't really do the board quests anyway and have my own problems with it. (Namely being required for the destiny upgrades.) Really I think the Lords of Chaos would be more interesting in Dragonfable than in their own game. So I have some interest, because I used to like AQW but got bored of it. To sort of get some of the things I wanted to like in a game I actually truly like can be cool.

Since we can already get Vath items from buying the poster I can see a problem there, as well as some things people previously said.

I don't really see much of a reason to be mad over these sorts of releases. If its something you can mostly ignore if you don't like it, then why fret? I would like adventurequest style content, or mechquest, but I can also see people not wanting those. Theres definitely other content I'm against in Dragonfable, but ya know, that happens.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 44
9/10/2020 4:40:10   

Despite my initial reaction, there've been really good points that others have made and I see their merits. I love the idea of seeing Dove's and Verlyrus' interpretations of the Chaos Lords and their Chaos Beasts, but I do understand the opportunity cost and the negative associations a lot of players have with this Board. I'd hate to sound overly blunt, but I don't think the spectacle would be worth the controversy.

I also really like the idea of a wider "AE" board. I would be just as keen to see Valoth or Carnax or other iconic characters/monsters from the other games, rather than AQW exclusively.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 45
10/22/2020 14:42:30   

I donít have any problem with the Chaos Board.

Honestly I think itís better that weíre getting the (at least somewhat) interesting content from other games. If anything I think reusing bosses that are already in the DragonFable main game/story proper is sort of redundant and pointless, and really just highlights how the main game has to hold back for casual play. (Which, to be clear I agree with, I donít want to have to struggle for hours on a boss when going through the story. If anything the Inn-variations should be like the ĎExtreme Modeí options when playing a quest but I digress.) But for people that *did* enjoy AQW itíll be a nice to see (Ďpanderingí as some called it) and to those who *didnt* play AQW itís just a brand new cool looking boss. Frankly I feel like the only people that would really be against the release are those that hate AQW itself - which is entirely unfair to the wonderful art, animations, and mechanics of the version we see in the Chaos Board. Especially since a lot of the Chaos Lords have great designs and Iíd really look forward to seeing them: Vath, Ledgermayne, Wolfwing, Kitsune (w/ his Kitsune transformation), etc.

but yeah, maybe not all of them and/or all the Chaos Beasts are that interesting. Plus thereíd be the weirdness of Kathool showing up again. So I donít know what would be the best way to handle that. Would it be worth doing alternate versions for different or more interesting Chaos Beasts or just better to scrap the idea entirely? I think the only real point is the ones not keen on the idea of these Chaos Lords taking up 14 releases or whatever.

But tbh itís basically a mini side-saga seeing all the different bosses- as someone mentioned itís basically the TLDR of the whole AQW story. And the board is already pretty big so itís probably better to have a longer set of challenges. Having something that takes up that much time while also incorporating nearly a whole AE game into DF seems like a pretty good deal to me. Not to mention we **do** see Drakath disappearing at the end of the Final 13th Saga. So this whole Chaos Board would be a really neat insight into what happened to him in a neat not-quite-canon lore way.

But whatever, regardless of how we proceed with or without the other Chaos Lords, this one at least I think was well done.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 46
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