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Quadforce and Dragonlord

 
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1/13/2021 19:36:35   
PD
Member

This item is amazing. Too amazing. For how much the upkeep costs combined with the ways to regen SP these days, is this really something that fits within the bounds of reasonableness for this game?

You could plausibly activate every stat for 708 SP/turn, which seems like a lot, only to remember that along with eclipsed dragonlord which is armor agnostic (unlike its wind variant), you can easily regain 100% of your SP to infinitely sustain the build.

The real crux of the issues that seem to appear is probably the fact that every single combination, while broken in of themselves, is now the new normal thanks for the Dragonlord items. Although adjusting dragonlord would probably put a significant damper on these interactions via limiting their ability to be used, even just activating a single or two quadforce attributes yields reasonable enough costs to question whether something like this is actually something we should have.
AQ MQ  Post #: 1
1/13/2021 20:08:18   
LUPUL LUNATIC
Member
 

quote:

You could plausibly activate every stat for 708 SP/turn, which seems like a lot, only to remember that along with eclipsed dragonlord which is armor agnostic (unlike its wind variant), you can easily regain 100% of your SP to infinitely sustain the build.


Well activating INT to 250 makes no sense for a Warrior since it does not grant Mana and magic weapons are weaker than Melee weapons so why even have the option since its a non-option just like running Arcane Amplification on a Warrior char, literally no use.

So at least this stat isn't going to be activated.

The best use for the misc is 250 STR so that Mages can now use Melee Dragonlord weapon for its SP regen , Warriors simply cannot use the 250 INT toggle for the misc.
The Regen on weapons need to be toned down, and Cray confirmed that weapons and EoC are on the watch list.
AQ  Post #: 2
1/13/2021 22:15:32   
J9408
Member

It definitely is too good.

My Lucky mage beastmaster has a problem with accuracy because of no DEX. But with this, that is no longer an issue with this misc.

As for SP regen, the new pet and essence orb covers that, leaving barely any weaknesses.

He could also use melee weapons if needed. Also a boost on all outgoing damage and +50 LUK on top?

Technically with the proper equipment, I could do nearly everything.
Post #: 3
1/14/2021 1:18:30   
Vellup
Member

I mean, obviously no one wants to see this item go (even allowing it to only max one stat at a time with none of the other misc bonuses opens up a myriad of build possibilities), but if it's going to be nerfed, might as well do it sooner rather than later.

Honestly, I'd love to see the math that went into the creation of this item that places it within the sweep's balance limits.
Post #: 4
1/14/2021 1:47:14   
OverLordOfDeath
Member

It's OP but we can choose to not use it. It's probably going to get nerfed anyway so my input means nothing.
Post #: 5
1/14/2021 15:28:14   
lolerster
Member
 

Alright, so I'm actually going to make a case that this item is not quite as OP as everyone seems to be making it out to be. I admit, I too reacted and thought it was OP. However, I have meditated and come to the conclusion while this item is extremely powerful even without the active effects, the active effects' power are being blown way out of proportion and the item is not in fact as broken as many seem to believe..


Now I will look at some aspects of Quadforce to make my argument.

1. Boosting Charisma to power up booster pets/guests: Let's first address booster pets/guests. Elemental booster pets, barring Lepre-Chan and Manifestation, can already be boosted to their absolute maximum boost 45.32 with no Charisma, through the use of Arcane Intellect/Buffalot + Celtic Wheel/CIT. Where elemental boosters are concerned, with exception of Lepre-chan/Manifestation, it is worthless. Now, it does boost regular boosters a bit. At 405 main stat, Dunamis will boost you +23.48% (35.22% on guest). With Triforce, you can boost Dunamis to...+27.2% (+40.8% on guest). A whopping +3.7% damage boost on the pet and +5.6% on the guest, giving the misc. overall +29.3% (+32.4% on Poelala) boost for 177 SP. Now compare this to Blood Contract, which provides an incredible x1.2 (x1.2667 for magic) damage for 0 SP. For those that do not know, due to the way multiplicative boosts interact with additive boosts, these effects, especially for more optimized builds, are just about the same. The difference is that the former also gives 50 luck but costs 177 + 75 = 252 SP/turn while the latter costs nothing.

2. Boosting Charisma to power up regular pets/guests: Admittedly, this is quite a big power boost, as boosting your Charisma from 0 to 250 is about a +50% melee in effectiveness per turn (more if we look at stuff like Shogun&Ansatsu, Hedgemog, Mimic, etc). This means that for 252 SP/turn, you are getting +50% melee in damage. Is it worth it? Arguably, yes, this is pretty strong. But you know what else can do that? Just a regular Beastmater running 250 Main Stat/Dex/Charisma. But Lolerster, you can boost your luck or endurance to 250 and use Quadforce to boost your Charisma! Yes, yes you can. But let me tell you why that's trash. Endurance is worthless when you can get a 10K+ mana shield/barrier in a single turn. Luck is fine, always having 250 luck for the initiative and lucky strike damage is nice, but the cost is 177 SP/turn. You and your 252 SP/turn are still worse off than your true beast master counterpart who can use a different misc. such as Blood Contract or Rattle to boost their damage further than what you are able to with your extra luck.

3. Boosting STR on Mages/0 Strength Characters to Use Melee/Ranged Weapon: Congrats, you are spending 177 SP/turn to do what Warriors/Rangers do for free. If your character also depends on booster pets/guests/boost spell, you now need to run another set of boosters to effectively take advantage of your newfound strength, costing even further buy reducing the number of slots available.

4. Boosting INT on Warriors/Rangers/0 INT characters: This is even worse. You still has no access to MP, magic weapon attacks are weaker and armour skills now cost more.

5. Using Quadforce as Status Potency: Admittedly this is fairly strong with quick-cast effects, as you can actually turn off the active to refund the 177 SP after you gain the benefit of the boost on your status roll. However, your selection is quite limited as the majority of QC statuses are in the misc. slot, which cannot be sued with Quadforce - so no Love Potion, Shadowfeeder Pendant, Zfinity Gauntlet: Power, Prime Chaos Orb, etc... However, for the QC statues locked in other slots like Mesmerize and Snarl, this is indeed very strong potency boost while not needing to "waste" a slot solely for potency (as the misc's +20% damage, *0.5 Light res, 50 LUK is very strong on its own). Other major rolls that come in mind are Purple Rain and Father Time, but I don't think anyone in living memory has ever failed a roll on those as they can be spammed. For non-QC status rolls, ye, it's fine. You do get a significant boost to you roll on some rolls, but at the cost of 177 SP/turn, which I would argue is fine.

6. Interaction with Leeches/Metroid Pets/Infinita Staff to have Infinite Uptime: OK, yes, you get Infinite Uptime on these boosts. But WHY do you want that? The Leech/Metroid deals 8% melee in damage just to keep up your Charisma boost or so you can run 250 END/LUCK, which as I explained in point 2, is not really that good. This is literally worse than running a regular pet, Dunamis and co. or better yet, an Elemental Booster. Ofc, leech pets can heal SP outside of this, but you are still giving up damage for it. Infinita Staff is a similar story as it has a -25% damage in the SP regen modes. Mages will also need to toggle strength to use Infinita Staff's SP regen, doubling the cost, but it's not a big deal as Infinita with the right setup can always full regen your SP. Think of it this way - you are using items that do less damage in order to sustain an effect to help you do more damage.

7. Dragonlord full heal: OK yes, you can infinitely sustain yourself and the item, but you can infinitely sustain yourself without Quadforce, and as discussed above deal just as much or even more damage with other miscs.

8. Interaction with Level 5 EO/Purple Rain: Right, because interaction with Quadforce is the biggest problem with those item.

9. Backlash Builds: At last, we have situation/build that truly benefits from Quadforce. Unlike mage/warrior/ranger builds, Backlash builds makes is able to make full use of more than 3 stats - Endurance, Charisma, Luck and a main stat. However, Backlash is still a niche build and at best situationally very powerful. I would argue it is a good thing that they are getting a buff.

10. Hybrids: Traditional hybrid builds and even Werepyre Hybrids will get a lot out of this item. However, they are kind of in the same situation as Backlash. Traditional hybrids are so far behind pure builds in terms of performance that I would argue it's a good thing that they get something OP. Even werepyres can use a nice buff compared to the pure builds.


Of course, I'm not saying this item is weak. By no means - even without the active effects, it is a good item. However, whether or not the active effects are so strong that they need to be nerfed does need some very careful consideration to how useful these stats/costs actually are. For me, the biggest strength of the item is the versatility it brings. It allows you to do things that are normally off-limits to your build, which is of course very powerful. It can even lead to new builds. However, in pretty much every case other than maybe the backlash case, you are doing it less effectively and less efficiently by a decent margin than another build.

< Message edited by lolerster -- 1/14/2021 16:34:41 >
AQ  Post #: 6
1/14/2021 21:49:07   
PD
Member

An idea for a Quadforce that doesn't give any stats:

quote:

Quadforce of Hope: Passive HP Regen worth that SP cost in HP
Quadforce of Wisdom: Passive MP Regen worth that SP cost in MP
Quadforce of Fortitude: Grants Status Resist worth that SP cost in roll resist
Quadforce of Rejuvination: Grants passive extra SP regen every turn
AQ MQ  Post #: 7
1/15/2021 2:12:35   
icetears
Member

I donít think itís that op at all. Didnít find much use on my warrior and bm. Even if Iím gonna use quad force , I still need to find the means for the sp upkeep by going into DL gear which takes me way more turns to kill.
AQ  Post #: 8
1/15/2021 6:37:35   
Primate Murder
Member

If I may, I'd also like to put in my two cents.

The misc is powerful, no doubt, but it isn't really as broken as people seem to think.

- Pure FO builds can use it to gain 250 Cha, which grants +25% damage via booster pet+guest (before accounting for auto-hit and omni-elemental penalties). You pay 45% melee to get 25% damage boost. Useful? Yes. Broken? No, not really.

- FO mages can use melee/ranged weapons. Again, you pay 45% melee to get a 25% melee boost.

- 0 Dex hybrids can use armors outside of werepyres. Again, useful? No doubt. Broken? Average autohit penalty is 35% - less cost for a greater benefit.

- Pure builds can use beastmaster pets and guests. Overall, 250 Cha gives +50% melee. Quadforce's Cha toggle costs 45% and requires keeping the misc constantly equipped. Whether you call it a penalty or a decompression bonus, I'd say it evens itself out more or less.

Overall, the best use of the Quadfore misc seems to be enabling alternative playstyles (rather than further boosting an already broken meta), and I fully support anything that adds diversity and versatility to the game.


Edit:
quote:

with eclipsed dragonlord... you can easily regain 100% of your SP to infinitely sustain the build.

That's not really an issue with the misc - rather, it's the DL weapons (and other resourse gain items) that are broken.

< Message edited by Primate Murder -- 1/15/2021 6:41:12 >
AQ DF  Post #: 9
1/15/2021 6:53:37   
Armsman
Member

^This. SP-based enablers like the Dragonlord weapons and Essence Orb are the real problem with the misc and many others (Purple Rain loop anyone?).

Once the player's ability to generate far more SP than is reasonable for a single turn is addressed, a lot of "problematic" items and strategies stop being such an issue.
AQ  Post #: 10
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