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6/2/2021 22:23:37   
Mr. Roguish

I originally put this in Q&A section but I thought it might be more appropriate as a discussion considering ideas not mentioned in this are welcome.

So, while not EXACTLY being a 1 for 1, we have:

Warrior - Werewolf
Mage - Vampire
Hybrid - Werepyre
Beastmaster - Sol Neko
Ranger - Luna Neko

I initially had been trying to come up with a subrace that can be for rogues like all these others are very clearly systematically and aesthetically compliments to the aforementioned builds.
Dracopyre is going to go the way its already being planned to be

Are any of these possible The Chosen's subrace for the future? The only things that I've though of are:
Human Demon- Essentially the same way that Ghin became part demon
Human Shadow- Like Lord Barrius (although I get the feeling thats going to develop into a class rather than a subrace even though it could be both since subraces already act as classes)
Vartai- Not really sure about this one
Harpy- Possible? Even if it is though, I'm not really interested in the idea
Annunaki host/avatar-This is technically feasible, the only point of contention is the supposed inability to die under normal circumstances or wounds from battle. However one might argue that it would break the lore if the player wanted to "cure" themselves as if a Annunaki leaves its host, then the host will die. HOWEVER, if the host van obtain a werewolf/vampire/werepyre/dracopyre affliction, then can escape death, at said point, the host should be able to cure oneself normally at that point. As for being an Avatar, coincidentally, the only one that could make sense would be Death since Cenara is already undead as a dracopyre so she would "live" regardless of being separated from it.
Forsaken- With the potential of being a host for an Annunaki, it would make sense for there to be a potential to be a forsaken, with the same possible point of contention is what would happen if you died in combat. I figured death could treat you the same way as he did vampire slayer E and just say that he owes you, but it does say that you can run and hide assuming you can escape death's domain another way. But I do like the concept of forsaken supposedly able to "see the dead, walk in the shadows, as well as being immune to Uncreation".

Anyone got any other ideas?
I like the idea of leprechauns and/or Elves, but Lore-wise I dont see how that could happen. Plus they are more full races than a subrace considering the character maintains the human prefix to the subrace name.

< Message edited by Mr. Roguish -- 6/14/2021 0:41:46 >
Post #: 1
6/2/2021 22:38:22   

I think the Were-Saxophonist subrace has incredible potential, and I'd love to see it some day. Wabio is of course the most powerful were-sax canonically, achieving his transformation through potions and the power of love, but the moon curse he based his magic off of could infect anyone. Their emphasis on CHA could make for some interesting abilities and items and the lore would be especially nice and juicy.
AQ Epic  Post #: 2
6/3/2021 5:06:40   

I can't think of what subrace would embody this- maybe a golem of some type? - but I think I'd like to see a subrace that embodies defensive powers and can weaponise END, as well as having special abilities to tank hits or restore health.
DF AQW  Post #: 3
6/4/2021 7:41:17   

That would be nice, I would like to see drakel or even moglin.
AQ  Post #: 4
6/14/2021 0:35:05   
Mr. Roguish


Not sure, maybe the Dracopyre might do something with END, but I do not know any race specifically that has anything to do with END. Its very easy to associate:
elves with DEX
leprechauns with LUK
But I don't know anything thats obviously big on END. Maybe Orcs?

But again with all those I just mentioned, I really don't see lore wise that's even possible for the Chosen or anyone to be turned into any of those.


Again, not sure how the Chosen or anyone would even be turned into one of those. If you can provide an example of it happening, it would definitely make the idea more feasible. Additionally what do you think being a moglin and/or drakle entail? Especially since Drake don't necessarily do one or two things like neko, they pretty much do everything.

Additionally, just remembering that one can become a knight and join shadowfall and become a "demon knight" seems to add more credence to the idea of a demon subrace.

< Message edited by Mr. Roguish -- 6/14/2021 0:42:04 >
Post #: 5
6/14/2021 4:31:54   

This discussion has come up on Discord a number of times, with the general consensus being that the resources involved would make any new subrace extremely difficult to introduce. With that said, going through each of the ideas thus far one by one:

1). Dracopyre: The last time this was brought up, there were no updates planned for the foreseeable future. However, it's highly likely that this would be the next subrace worked on
2). Human Demon: I can't think of any reason why this wouldn't be plausible though, if I remember correctly, Cray dislikes the lore around how Ghin became part demon. If it does happen, I don't think that will be the method.
3). Human Shadow: This isn't a subrace as much as it is an entire state of being, far more than any sort of simple subrace. Whilst it's certainly true that the player could be corrupted in the same way as Igneox's kit, canonically this happening to the player would be more difficult to explain (especially since there isn't a known way to transition back). Additionally, the writers don't tend to step on the toes of other former writers, and this would definitely be getting into shadow lore.
4). Vartai: This is the one that most gets brought up on Discord in terms of new subraces - it's plausible and there's room for development. However, I believe Cray has also shot this down in the past (for reasons I can't remember)
5). Harpy: Interesting one, doesn't often get raised. I think there are 2 key problems with it; you'd need to flesh out harpy lore and I'm not sure how many people would be interested in that happening. It would be a lot of work, for potentially not a lot of gain
6). Annunaki: This isn't a subrace inasmuch as you're literally hosting another entity within you. Nevertheless, the ramifications from something like this happening would be headache-inducing. I'm in no position to say this could never happen, but it looks pretty impossible.
7). Forsaken: This just isn't a subrace. You certainly won't be getting any special abilities or benefits (unless you count being chased by Death). This isn't going to happen
8). Leprechaun: The mechanics of transition would be difficult to justify, but it's considerably more likely than 6 or 7,
9). Elves: Probably in the same group as Harpy - would need a lot of lore to flesh it out, and I'm unsure as to whether it would be worth it
10). Were-saxophonist: Why isn't this a subrace already?
11). Golem: An interesting concept for sure. Probably falls into the same category as harpy as well. However, on top of that, there's a huge amount of variety within Golems so is it too broad to be considered a subrace?
12). Drakel: Probably one of the more feasible ideas. There'd also be some interesting interactions with Minister Bree-Ha
13). Moglin: Again, probably one of the more feasible ones. It would also provide extra food for the Darkovian subraces...
14). Orcs: Same as Harpies again

Overall, a lot of interesting ideas. Some are fairly reasonable (if we had the resources). I'd personally prefer to see an update to Dracopyre before any new subraces. The lore's already there, so the workload is comparatively lower.

< Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 6/14/2021 4:34:54 >
AQ  Post #: 6
6/14/2021 10:08:14   


That were-saxophonist isn't a thing already is either a tragic omission on our part or the single most important example to date of why the Chosen's private life is up to interpretation so as to enable ideas like this. Every hero needs a Yakety Sax intermission handy.

It's great to see so much speculation on the matter of subraces, but they're not something we can make any promises on for the time being. That said, these are typically modifiers to one's state of being or transformations with humanity as a base, with either being acquired in life. Full-blown races such as Vartai, Orcs, Elves, Demons, Moglins, Leprechauns, etcetera, are precisely that: Races. These are not something one becomes, unlike the process of being afflicted by lycanthropy or vampirism.
Post #: 7
6/14/2021 12:02:00   
Mr. Roguish


What about Demon? The Queen Tyranna is half demon and half human? True this was from birth rather than transforming later, however with siding with the Shadowfall Demon knights, the Chosen is given and apparently carries the "Demonic flame". Additionally we have Ghin, who from what I can surmount, was a human that turned part demon?

Additionally what is your take on being an Annunaki host and/or subsequently a Forsaken?
Post #: 8
6/14/2021 13:23:51   


Demons are fundamentally different beings to humans, both spiritually and physically. Hybrids can be born, but not created in any way that constitutes a subrace.

The lore for Ghin's transformation is shaky to the point of putting a hard negatory on repeating it, as well as lying well outside of the spectrum of good.

Being the host to one of the Annunaki, would likewise not constitute subrace status, involving another character would make it far too involving to be fair to other options. Creating a throwaway Faceless just to enable this would be in very poor form, while the proper fleshing out of the symbiotic being would necessitate a recurrent presence in the story. It's far too major for a subrace.

As of being Forsaken? For the sake of elaboration, having already established that a host wouldn't be a subrace: That would further increase the scope of such a story. We would be telling a different story entirely, and one that would take multiple sagas to properly unfold. What silver lining there is to being a Forsaken, deliberately unreliable out-of-game narration aside, is far outweighed by the downsides.

Beyond the special case of Hope and the twofold divine intervention involved, a Forsaken would not remain the Chosen. The arrangement with Death would no longer hold, and being hunted by the Reaper would be the lighter of the disadvantages. A sufficiently traumatic death could utterly destroy the hero with no chance of an afterlife.
Post #: 9
6/14/2021 13:28:13   

Even though it makes no sense, I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of benefit for remaining pureblooded human.
AQ DF  Post #: 10
6/14/2021 13:43:20   

Humans are not affected by anti vampire/werewolf/undead equipment/spells right? That is one benefit there.

Like that Necromancer Void boss for example.

< Message edited by J9408 -- 6/14/2021 13:55:30 >
Post #: 11
6/14/2021 14:16:30   

Fair enough, although wouldn't Neko be exempt from attacks like that?
AQ DF  Post #: 12
6/14/2021 15:47:54   

As far as I know yes.

Neko's are feline's right?

It would be cool if they have higher MRM as a passive race bonus. Or have a small chance to lower a enemy BTH.
Post #: 13
6/14/2021 17:41:21   
  Digital X

Beep Beep! ArchKnight AQ / ED

Going by looks Neko are Feline yes. Definitely in the Cat family.

Looking at Mr. Roguish's list in the OP there are a plethora of potential subraces that could exist. But in the world of Lore there has to be balance. It needs to be thought what traits and abilities each has and would these clash with one another?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 14
6/14/2021 20:12:53   
Mr. Roguish


The lore for Ghin's transformation is shaky to the point of putting a hard negatory on repeating it, as well as lying well outside of the spectrum of good

Haha, what's the point of the good and evil alignments on the moral compass if we can't be evil?

Also, my interpretation of a subrace was that something that has something spiritual in addition to the physical that in layman's terms, "latches" onto whomever.
Hence when Nightbane was being resurrected, he was still a dracopyre in spirit form in addition to the character can be dead and roaming death's domain and still be whatever subrace.

Whether it be a curse (although that terminology is subjective to whom it effects), or whatever, it seems to be something that attaches itself on more than just the physical level. With that being said, if that is the case then wouldn't something along the lines of being the host for something still coincide with the standard of what makes a subrace in the first place?

I'm not arguing the point about the Annunaki or Forsaken as I get your point with those as you explained. But what about the Shadow (which I also understand the issue with there being no identified way that a separation could be made once it happens) and the Demonic flame? Currently it is not specifically said that the demonic flame turns one into a demon, however if there were to be an attempt to make it happen and there was a dilemma on how to justify it, I feel like that would be a sufficient route? As I would assume if you changed allegiances, that Tyranna would have a way of stripping tbe flame from you.

Neko is the Japanese word for cat.

I only mention this because of what you just said, it is not my intention to turn this thread into a promotion of my attempts at more rogue/ninja/assassin gear. But if it interests you, I have a like minded suggestion on my suggestion thread (post #5) of essentially:

For awhile I had switched my subrace from vampire to Neko to test what would be the more effective armor for my playstyle, and it donned on me.
1. "Neko" is Japanese for "cat"
2. Ninjas originated in Japan, the rogue class is before the ninja class and the rogue guest is a black cat (Neko)
3. There is already a Ninjat (ninja cat) temp armor AND pet

Why aren't Neko Ninjat's a thing?! According to the temporary armor you get during the Safaria's plea quest, apparently they have their own clan (Feline Assassins Inc.). I understand that the theme behind how the sol and luna sets were made were to give both beastmasters and rangers a bone (which they do a REALLY good job of). So I think it would be right to only have 1 Neko Ninjat armor so nekos don't have too much that other people don't want to play the other subraces. Between sol and luna however, given the theme of the night and attacking for oneself instead of having pets and guests do the majority of the damage, I think the Luna side would make the most sense. Except this would be the only Neko armor that skills apply to counter attacks from dodging.

< Message edited by Mr. Roguish -- 6/14/2021 21:09:12 >
Post #: 15
6/14/2021 23:10:48   


Per the longest running precedent, and as ratified in this Design Notes post, the Chosen is canonically good. The Alignment Compass thus represents what they were like during the Devourer Saga and adjacent quests. That leaves the matter of the demonic flame, which is simply the power wielded by an advanced Demon Knight. Mechanical concerns apply as well, as a subrace tied to a specific class specialization would be bizarrely restrictive.

The Shadow Universe arc has concluded, precluding the involvement of the Chosen's shadow. Given a focus on closing loose ends, reopening it just for the sake of implementing a subrace would both be counterproductive and run afoul of a smaller version of the host/Forsken issue. On top of not really excluding other subraces, such a change would have more involving story implications.

As a rule, anything that runs into the limitation of there being no set-in-stone canonical subrace or class for the Chosen can't work as a subrace in the story.
Post #: 16
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