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Z token items need a minor change

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6/4/2021 1:28:54   
Sapphire
Member

I believe once upon a time, z token items were desired because their power level exceeded anything else you could get. Guardian items gets you what is it, a 3 power level bump. So a z token gets you in some cases what is it, 10 levels?

This was nice because if you were say, level 110 a z token item might have the power level of something much higher...maybe L120?

But that changed with the max level increase. Once you max, z token items become FAR less desireable.

I have found now, I spend tokens on GGB to get those items. Z token buys now are the free item it comes with, and then it gets spent on GGB which is like gambling.

I think there should be z token items that are purchasable after L143, and maybe a L150 z token item gets you Power level 160 items.

This will reinvigorate the desire to actually spend tokens on end-game equipment.

Another idea I had but on the fence, is now that we have a lot of token packages, I wonder if it should be allowed to use the tokens to buy an item of the same ztoken package value with the tokens you have?

Example, If you bought the blood contract 7500 token package, you get the 7500 tokens and blood contract. And then if you want, you can go through ballyhoo and access any other item with the 7500 token package, that you might get for free in another package, and maybe you buy the buffalot spell for 7500 tokens. All items cost in z tokens what the package gives you.

This also gives more value to ztokens.
Post #: 1
6/4/2021 1:39:15   
Biokirkby
Member

Having Power Level 160 items is an... awkward idea, I imagine. Beyond Guardianship, being pay to win is rather looked down apon, hence why token packages have more "unique" abilities rather than explicit advantages (Even if many of them are extremely advantaageous in the meta.)

I'm personally interested in the ability to buy package items, but them costing as much as the entire package doesn't sound right- they are, in theory, the free bonuses themselves.
DF AQW  Post #: 2
6/4/2021 1:52:20   
GwenMay
Member

Yeah I think power level 160 would be strange. It would make the game more p2w and detract from "guardian" unlocking everything. Also, token items are really no different than ggbs - should they be 160 too?

As for packages, higher tier token packages are a lot more token efficient than lower tier packages. One $250 package would give enough tokens to buy the rewards for 20 $25 packages, which is $500 worth of premium bonuses - and that's not even factoring in sales. Having good bonuses tied to lower tier token packages encourages bulk token buyers to buy packages other than the most token efficient ones.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 3
6/4/2021 1:56:56   
Bannished Rogue
Member


 I always wanted a way to have the Z token shops kind of work similar to the GGBs.
I think being able to buy packages with Z-tokens would just allow people to get 2 packages for the price of one. Essentially if you buy a package, you already have access to the shop you get with the package in addition to exactly the amount you would need to rebuy that package for a different shop you didn't originally get with the initial purchase.
Something I always contemplated that should still be profitable would be:

Lets say you bought a package and chose a shop that you ended up regretting (Using the 20,000 package Thernda pet as an example).

Having a counter for the z tokens in each package you've purchased, which for the purpose of this example will be 20,000 as previously mentioned
1. Being able to essentially have all you accounts scanned for that pet and being taken
2. That shop to Thernda then being closed so you can't repurchase it.
3. Your z token count being downgraded to the closest lower package (based on the 20,000 example, downgrading to 12,000).
4. Getting to choose a shop from any of the packages equal to or less than the z token count. (lesser packages will be taken out of z token count):
Essentially with 20,000 downgrading to 12,000, one could unlock; one-12000 package shop, one-7500 shop and one-2500 shop, or two-6000 shops.

If one purchased multiple 20,000 packages (lets just use 2 to keep it simple), they can sacrifice both of them and have a grand total of 24,000 and access 1 from the 20,000 shop (and one from the 2500 shop if they so choose).

Don't know how feasible this would be, I would assume there would be a great potential with people attempting to glitch so they can continue to access old shops that should have been sealed.

< Message edited by Mr. Uber -- 6/4/2021 2:04:19 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 4
6/4/2021 1:59:52   
GwenMay
Member

@Mr. Uber

I asked about unlocking multiple or different package bonuses with other package bonuses in my $200 package suggestion thread, apparently they can't do that.

Hollow:
quote:

I would love to be able to offer bonuses from other packages if you did not want a custom face, but unfortunately we just aren't set up to do it. Some of you may remember when we first started doing package bonuses, we could only have 1 active at a time. Captain Rhubarb really worked some magic when he added the ability to have multiple package bonuses active at a time.

Link to post: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=22390208
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 5
6/4/2021 2:54:11   
Bannished Rogue
Member
quote:

GwenMay said:
I asked about unlocking multiple or different package bonuses with other package bonuses in my $200 package suggestion thread, apparently they can't do that.

Hollow quote:

I would love to be able to offer bonuses from other packages if you did not want a custom face, but unfortunately we just aren't set up to do it. Some of you may remember when we first started doing package bonuses, we co


I read the post, I'm not 100% sure of exactly the specifics of the complications of that being implied. To me it sounds like Hollow was more referencing a difficulty of tricking the system already programed to open a specific shop based on the current selections into opening another one or multiple others from a different packages at the time of purchase (especially without live and direct control over the process as it's happening since it's set up that any and everyone could purchase a package a 3AM without any problems).

While I fully and completely acknowledge what I mentioned most likely isn't necessarily an easy thing to accomplish, it is fundamentally different from what I understood was being communicated was the issue. Essentially it would work almost exactly the same as the shops in the Grenwog with the eggs and/or the Mogloween with candy events. The most difficult part I would assume would be taking that item out of each character to ensure players aren't just grabbing multiple out, offloading them onto another character so they can maintain equipment they got from that package they wished to trade. Although, while much more detrimental to us, it could also be cost effective for them to just have a count of all the packages more similar to the GGBs where each package can be counted up to be upgraded to open up a higher package shop (like six-2500 packages can open a 6000 shop for free, eight-7,500 packages can open up the 12,000 for free, etc.) and just letting the player keep the other packages' items so they are more than making their money back by opening that 1 package shop

Still I don't know the coding issues that are actually going on or will be an issue, just an idea of things they already use that could be used to accomplish a similar thing.

< Message edited by Mr. Uber -- 6/4/2021 3:18:36 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 6
6/4/2021 6:03:28   
Sapphire
Member

At the end of the day, as a Lvl 150 character, please someone tell me how many ztoken items are attractive enough to spend my tokens on when I buy them, as opposed to using the tokens elsewhere such as GGB's?

In my inventory, I own ONE token item. Player faces, guards, and a few other items that cost tokens I feel the average player will not buy. I was in a shop the other day and I think a house guard costed 5k tokens and I'm sorry but my mouth dropped. All I could do was start to think to myself who would buy this when you could actually use the tokens on GGB? And that's when I realized wow I own one token item. (Vampyro)

I'm not saying making a lvl 150 token item be Power level 160 is the answer, and I think a solution is always up for debate, but does everyone agree the luster is gone?

Maybe they just have level 145 token items with Plvl 155?

Or for thematic purposes, maybe you keep the same idea (owning equipment that have higher Plvl than your current level) but this is stretched further than it is today, but then add in a few "perks"

So here's a quick and dirty idea:
Level 1 Ztoken item equates to Plevel 25. And then the formula scales backwards from there. Perhaps Lvl 75 (halfway to max) token item results in Plvl 88. (13 more;about halfway between 1-25) all the way to Lvl 150 is Plvl 155.

Lvl 1- Plvl 25
Lvl 25-Plvl-45
L45-Plvl 63
L65- Plvl 81
L75 -Plvl 88
L95-Plvl 106
L115- Plvl 124
L135- Plvl 142
L145- Plvl-151
L147-Plvl-152
L148-Plvl 153
L149-Plvl 154
L150-Plvl 155

Something like that..just a quick and dirty table.

Then, here's the other kicker....
Any "cost" like misc upkeep or equip cost, armor skill cost, spell MP cost, etc are always the PURCHASE level amount. A Lvl 10 ztoken spell might be Plvl 32, but it costs MP as if it's L10.

This system makes lower level token items attractive because it effectively buffs your character as you level up and they become the best items to help then, but they also are desireable at end-game because their Plvl is a bit above max level + guardian, but nothing drastic.

IDK guys I may be stretching but what can be done to put the luster back?

Post #: 7
6/4/2021 6:55:26   
Biokirkby
Member

Your solution is, like you said, up for debate, but I agree that much of the luster is gone- and I say that even as someone with many Z-token items, so perhaps I agree to a lesser degree. I can't speak to a solution, just because it's such a finicky line to cross...

That said, maybe they should have made the Z-token Paladin a different element. I'd definitely have gotten that.
DF AQW  Post #: 8
6/4/2021 7:37:07   
icetears
Member

I rmb back in the early days before ggb ztoken items were good. Now they seems quite meh except a few good ones. I think the ztoken gears need to be more attractive or cheaper
Post #: 9
6/4/2021 9:17:11   
Zennistrad
Member

I'm against Token items being too much more powerful than normal items, for the reasons explained above. P2W is bad for game balance

Token/GGB items already have some of the strongest items available (Imbue skills from the Warrior's Tower, White Knight Z, Bloodzerker/Bloodmage) and pushing these items even more would even further push the meta towards P2W
AQ  Post #: 10
6/4/2021 10:11:09   
Veleqwii_Fox
Member

Well these are some of the token items I'd really want to get if I did have a lot. These don't really have f2p counterparts, so these item effects are kind of difficult to obtain for f2p players like me.

Imbue Spells - these are great for nuking, there's like several of them each costing about 6k tokens, the ones I'd really want to get first are Fire Dragon Talon and Terror Fist
New Year's Spells - extra BtH is always nice, on top of Moonwalker's Grace and other boosts
Call Dekanor - really great compression guest, best Wind guest available in terms of damage
Meduso Bow and Stun Bow - really great for status rangers
Doomquake Minions - best earth guest in terms of damage I think, this is relatively cheap though
Vampyro - no f2p Fire Vampire form, I can't get full elemental coverage
Golden Fang - same with Vampyro, no f2p Water Werewolf form
Cello Bow - Wind/Earth compression bow, since there aren't really great alternatives for Wind 100-proc, might as well go for compression (though there's also Hollow's Remote)
Terror Items - really high nuke damage, good synergy with Fear effects
Pyre Rat Contract - good water guest, probably best in damage
Ebony Sepulchre - unlimited undeadify
Cherub Armor - great FD wind armor with a lot of effects
Spring Dryad Armor - only Water hybrid armor aside from Werepyre
Protector Weapon/Armors - cool effects, a bit gimmicky
All the Void Boss paintings, Seasonal Paintings, and Frostval Paintings to be released
Completely exhaust all my characters' extra slots

Though, I agree and understand that if you already have all the token items you want, buying more tokens aren't as rewarding. There's only just the GGBs and Donation Contests.

I guess the staff just has to balance the gap between buyers and non-buyers especially since a buyer can get all these in a few $250 packages. While a f2p player would take years of farming/investing in houses, especially if they don't really have 10 characters capping on tokens daily.
Post #: 11
6/4/2021 10:59:57   
Zennistrad
Member

There is actually one area where I do think Z-Token items can be improved, and that's in updating older ones to modern standards. I think it's hilarious, for example, that the Chopalot's item description says it's one of the most powerful Earth weapons around when this is very far from the case these days.

This is pretty distinct from giving them a level advantage over other items, though
AQ  Post #: 12
6/4/2021 11:30:18   
RobynJoanne
Member
 

 @Zennistrad
That is indeed something the staff could do and has done in the past. Felled Gunfighter was relatively recently updated to modern standards, and I believe Aracknight is also in the works if it isn't too difficult to redo everything. It's definitely a welcome addition.

As for Z-token items in general:
I actually think they strike a good balance against GGBs. It's one guaranteed strong item that costs approximately as much as a UR GGB on average. Of course, 30 GGBs have other uses even if one opens to be a UR GGB, but there is always an element of chance involved with loot boxes. There is an argument to be made that too many new items are released as GGBs instead of Z-token items, but outside of GGBs, most items only cost gold. Any change towards more Z-token items instead of gold ones would be controversial to say the least.

I would like to see more level 0 Z-token items like the Z-finity Gauntlets. The recent increase in character slots has given us the opportunity to make new characters, and I found the level-scaling of GGBs really helpful in setting up builds for my super underleveled characters. Z-token items just can't be transferred in that way, and I really don't want to downgrade them to transfer them over.
Post #: 13
6/4/2021 11:59:26   
J9408
Member

We definitely need some more level scaling z items.
Post #: 14
6/4/2021 20:52:15   
ruleandrew
Member
 

 Maximum power I would give to a z-token item is one mastercraft bonus plus (one skill or one spell like ability) plus x player power levels.

Z-token item maximum player power level is 153.
AQ  Post #: 15
6/5/2021 6:20:21   
Sapphire
Member

A level 143 token item is Plvl 153 currently.

This is great if you're lvl 143, and then diminishes for the remainder of your character's levels. The luster at 144-150 fades. I would just like to see something change so that at "end game", z token items become desirable once again. I don't know what that could look like, but something should change.

Another thing could be to "double mastercraft" a lvl 150 z token item by default. There *is* a double mastercraft item that exists. The lvl 144-150 range needs something.
Post #: 16
6/6/2021 14:42:21   
Mr. Roguish
Banned


 I would like to see some Z-token items get upgraded variants.

For instance, the Jester Masquerade is lvl 140, but has a powerlevel of 150. However, most lvl 150 items have a powerlevel of 153. Not seemingly like a huge gap, but it definitely feels that way, the armor does not preform nearly as effectively as most lvl 150 (powerlvl 153) armors
Post #: 17
6/6/2021 15:00:53   
RobynJoanne
Member
 

 Jester Masquerade follows some really old standards, so there's a reason it's not that strong. It also seems to be non-MC'd, which would be really strange today for a Z-token item.
Post #: 18
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