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RE: =DF= August 13th/30th Design Notes: The Maleurous: Reckoning

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8/15/2021 17:35:58   
Fire alandry

A long time ago, we had a war with 2 sides (the Raveloss war). I don't think it's possible with the current state of the game (both from playerbase perspective and from devs time perspective).

I'm not complaining. Quite the opposite.
You see, back in the Storm war days, My English wasn't good enough to understand: a) that the Avatars considered as gods, b) why they attack Falconreach because of what Nythera have done.
Since then, I don't like them and certainly don't trust them. Even as I understood more (and the game progressed), this dislike remained. And after the Maleurous Saga...
Okay. I'm not sure if the solution is overthrow them, although they absolutely deserve it. And I'm not fully convinced that Notha's goal is just to free everyone- especially since Remthalas helps her. Anyway, would I had the choice, I'm not sure which side were better.
Which means, great writing as always:) Really appreciate the fact that the Hero criticize the Avatars, and reflect my feelings in a way. Just like the opportunity to aid the Rose in the Greenguerd alliance- I'm very half-hearted about them, but I'm surely don't hate them as some other (in-game and out-game) may.

Good luck with the war! I'm very curious to see what will happen if we loss, but as a hero of lore, I can't stand aside. I will lent my little help.
DF  Post #: 26
8/15/2021 18:16:38   
Laeon val Observis


Don't try to overanalyze details about plains of existences with complicated god-like beings managing them along with their interactions with the human mind. All that we know of based on current released content (frankly, all Magesterium-related stuff being being discussed now is not really that appropriate since our Hero won't even get to know them until the stunt at the Gala, which is later on in the Book 3 timeline) is that the Plains/Wastes and the Planes are one in the same dimension.

@above between this and the Duel Terminal sagas of YGO, I'd rather have the latter's take on "gods leaving the management of the world to mortals" schtick. Notha has some wavelengths similar to Jaania currently, which is dangerous enough, not to mention how far Magesters went in manipulating a society so that they are right and that they won't be the one to shoulder the blame when things go wrong. Unless we can settle those loose ends, I'd rather that we keep the Avatars/Lords (Magesterium terms do imply that they might be one and the same, and our timeline does deviate from AQ) instead of marching blindly into a future we don't even have a finger in comprehending yet.

@MsChicken unless you opted in for the cookies during login, you will have a short time (5-10 mins, I forgot which) for posting stuff, although no one's stopping you from creating your post in an external like MS Word. Definitely the pad system is for more focused players and can be kept (with the structure of the Firmament anyway, I feel that walking around clobbering mobs ain't as viable as standing on the same sector and letting them come instead. And frankly it's also partly because the "muscle memory" aspect of old style waves are but an illusion to me). A gauntlet system without said mechanic? I can agree with that too (and will give me enough humor to "purists" who dare say that it ain't DF since AQ and MQ do that).

< Message edited by Laeon val Observis -- 8/15/2021 18:26:37 >
DF AQW  Post #: 27
8/15/2021 18:29:47   


Same, I've only beaten 50 waves so far, but after adding your 200, it seems that rare waves have not been added yet.
DF  Post #: 28
8/15/2021 18:41:47   
Laeon val Observis

I believe that's most likely due to how the waves were programmed to appear, especially now that we have comprehensive info, by guaranteeing that we get 5 encounters, the standard issue wave encounter (although rare waves aren't as fast as they were during the olden times, since total HPs in recent rare waves mean that they are around half the time a regular wave would outside of CW OTK). Combined with the extreme random configuration and enemy permutations, it's unlikely we'll get any rare waves for now.
DF AQW  Post #: 29
8/16/2021 4:47:48   

Cool gimmick with the pads!

I also really like the art on the new phages. I'm sad they have G/E resist though, which means there aren't any good Non DoomKnight Non Seasonal options for this war.
DF  Post #: 30
8/16/2021 14:29:56   

Was ony half paying attention while warring, and noticed at the end of a round there were 4 phage bodies on the ground in a single battle, and later realized I had a rare wave marked as being competed. I guess that was the rare wave, can anyone confim?
DF  Post #: 31
8/16/2021 14:31:25   

^ Yeah they're rare waves I only just realized after I got the quest completed, I probably should have done that earlier
DF  Post #: 32
8/16/2021 14:52:11   

Yeah just got another. It's an interesting precedent, I wonder if we'll see this in the Inn soon?
DF  Post #: 33
8/16/2021 15:14:33   

Well we already have fought four enemies at once in the Inn with the Ice and Dragons boss fight from the Change of Heart board
DF  Post #: 34
8/16/2021 15:31:45   

Oh yeah, I forgot about that lol
DF  Post #: 35
8/16/2021 15:49:48   

Also anyone notice their wave count going down if they leave the Reckoning War page? It goes back to normal if I log out and log back in, but then it won't count waves on completion and even go back down again if I leave the page again.
DF  Post #: 36
8/16/2021 15:58:45   

I'm not a fan of the DDR mechanic, or at least not of its current implementation. As was said previously - wars in this game are a grind, and after a while of grinding you get into a flow. It would be fine in a regular quest or a boss fight, but not in a war where you run dozens of waves with your brain turned off and hands on autopilot.

As for a mechanic I like, having 4 actual enemies in a fight is a nice improvement to what we had almost exactly 10 years ago with The Necrotic Generals. I think there's a slight oversight with it though - Chaosweaver's Soul Rip, while able to target the fourth enemy, doesn't seem to apply the stun effect, even though the enemy has no Immobility resistance.


Additionally, the dimension Notha and Myalos are invading from/where the Firmament seems to be located, appears to be the same out-of-this-world space where the top of Warlic's tower is in. Compare A New Student and Loose ends from The Thorns saga
DF  Post #: 37
8/16/2021 16:47:23   

Yeah rare waves got added today, it's 1 fight of 4 enemies at once like others have said, in case anyone was wondering like I was :P
Post #: 38
8/16/2021 17:04:17   
Laeon val Observis

Finally, rare waves. Now, featuring the quartet formation (HP values for non-CW is worth 2 encounters). Although it is with these wave that I do notice a slight decrease in FPS despite being at low graphic settings (those phages are really flashy).

@Vaalrius have you tried logging out (and clear cache) instead of relentlessly pummeling wave after wave after the latest addition? Apart from minor lag, no issues here on the counter's tally.
DF AQW  Post #: 39
8/16/2021 17:10:05   

^ Huh when in doubt just clear the cache, issue solved, thanks!
DF  Post #: 40
8/16/2021 21:12:23   

@damko00 I thought that background looked familiar! Either it's simply reused, or Warlic has some explaining to do...

I also realised something. Unless we get an epilogue after this, we'll probably be saying goodbye to Uaanta when the war ends. I've really enjoyed seeing her character development and her interactions with all of the Malerous. She'll certainly be missed and I suspect she'll have a lot to ponder once she gets home.

@Laeon val Observis

We barely have any knowledge of the full history of the Exalted. What drove them to fight the Avatars/Makers/Lords? Did they realize an error in their cause? Did their precious Artillery even work when their war was at its closing? If so, did it even work or did it just eliminate their iteration of the Avatars?

I don't think I'll use spoiler tags here since this stuff has been hinted at in game for a while now, and I think my thoughts on this have been cryptic enough already.
The Exalted were certainly before the Avatars' time, and before Lore's time I suspect. They were fighting the Aequilibria, who probably fit the title "Elemental Lords" better than the Avatars themselves. Whether they won their war depends on how you see it. Their artillery certainly did what it was supposed to do - and in so doing is responsible for the current state of the Plains. I suspect the devastation it caused is why it's called the Wastes now anyway.

But that's where the beautiful irony is. The Exalted, for whatever reason were so committed to defeating their gods that they were willing to take the fall themselves as well. And Notha, for all her knowledge of the past is blind to see that she is repeating it. She doesn't care about the collateral damage that comes from ending the Avatars. She just wants to win, no matter the cost.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 41
8/17/2021 0:55:27   
Laeon val Observis

@above I did state through my response to @alandry that with current info we as players know (despite it being anachronic relative to when it was disclosed compared to now) is that there is an implication that "Avatars" and "Lords" are one in the same. Did infernals and celestials came before them or is it the other way around? We don't know that (although The Last Stand book implies the latter being most likely), along with whether or not the Aequilibria are the Avatars or are they more related to the celestials and infernals (or are they separate beings altogether if the Drahr pair are to be referenced)? Those are the rest of the questions needing answering, and Lock and Key might have them. And Notha's mindset is also a major problem. She believes that she knows "enough" without even thinking of the potential negative consequences of it, which can be world rending at minimum, ending at worst, considering who she and Myalos are fighting. If the Avatars' time has (long since) passed (if the Myalos arc of this saga were to be referenced), at least we get the proper answers rather than in partial, scattered form. Only then can it be decided whether its worth ending the Avatars or giving them time for a formal apology (then ending them. I know there are here that might not be placated without their ending).

< Message edited by Laeon val Observis -- 8/17/2021 1:06:24 >
DF AQW  Post #: 42
8/17/2021 4:08:27   

i think im sitting this war out, :(

classes have begun and i have no time to spare.

Also, really great development in the story! I'm still waiting for the day that DF Lore gets explored by content creators in YT. The stuff is great!
AQ DF  Post #: 43
8/17/2021 8:00:51   

@Laeon val Observis
I believe Lock and Key have already answered these questions. Some may remember the Luck Day 2018 event, the second event that Lock and Key made an appearance in. It involved this puzzle. It's a little weird to read so:

"They fled, after the cataclysm. Broken and betrayed, they started anew. Made different, better children. In their image. But only two this time. Then the Avatars were created, to watch over these creations, while they went into beatific slumber. And then the cycle began."

"They" must refer to the Aequilibria. The cataclysm is presumably the war with the Exalted. And I'm pretty sure the two newer, better children refer to the Saviour and the Destroyer, the dragons of Prophecy; made in the image of Drahr'Hatir and Drahr'Dolaas respectively.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 44
8/17/2021 11:06:47   


Notha has some wavelengths similar to Jaania currently, which is dangerous enough, not to mention how far Magesters went in manipulating a society so that they are right and that they won't be the one to shoulder the blame when things go wrong. Unless we can settle those loose ends, I'd rather that we keep the Avatars/Lords (Magesterium terms do imply that they might be one and the same, and our timeline does deviate from AQ) instead of marching blindly into a future we don't even have a finger in comprehending yet.


And Notha, for all her knowledge of the past is blind to see that she is repeating it. She doesn't care about the collateral damage that comes from ending the Avatars. She just wants to win, no matter the cost.

These two sum up my feelings on the matter pretty well. Notha is a reckless, selfish narcissist who doesn't actually care about the suffering or chaos she causes, she just wants to fulfill her own self-appointed agenda with no real idea or even a realistic grasp of what comes after, just like Jaania. Both Jaania and Notha are blinded by their own (ultimately selfish disguised as altruistic) desires and refuse to even consider that they might in fact, have it wrong. Hiding the inherent selfishness of one's goals and the recklessness and destructiveness of ones methods in claims that one is doing it: "for the greater good" is the textbook behavior of tyrants. If Notha actually succeeded in overthrowing the Lords I guarantee you that in any realistically written universe she would become 10X the tyrant that the Lords were on their worst days. She's all about "freedom" now, but just wait until people use that freedom to oppose her directly, do something against her will/desires, or basically do anything she doesn't like. The moment someone uses their free choice to say, resurrect the Avatars, she'll suddenly become a worse tyrant than Slugwrath in the name of "freedom". She's like the people who claim to love democracy but will then advocate for tyranny the moment "the people" vote against what they want. She'll commit more atrocities and cause more destruction while claiming the same "greater good." We know this is true because history shows us this happening every time. The "liberators" always become worse than the ones they overthrew.

Compared to some gods both in fantasy and IRL mythology, the Elemental Lords are downright benevolent, and I would take their stewardship over a lot of other pantheons ANY day, whether Greek, Norse, Hindu, or any others. If you want proof of the Elemental Lord's benevolence, look no further than how relatively non-interventionist they are. Other pantheons in other settings routinely have their followers launch crusades and genocidal campaigns to spread their influence or accomplish other selfish goals. I have yet to see proof of the Avatars engaging in this behavior routinely. As far as I have seen the Avatars are one of the most pacifistic (on the whole) pantheons in fantasy. They've only directly intervened once (Storm War), and most of the time they actively help heroes become more powerful to protect more people and stop larger threats. They almost never intervene in mortal affairs to the point where we as the Hero have gone through 3 chapters only having seen them maybe once per chapter. If they were as heavy-handed as Notha makes them out to be we would have been seeing them constantly. Instead they already more or less leave Lore (or at least Greenguard and that area) to run itself. Paladins and Necromancers have entire wars without either Voidstar or Celeritas interfering. We only met a messenger from Fiamme AFTER having slain Akriloth, before that we heard and saw nothing of any of the Avatars. Not to mention the Avatars are actually open to changing, moreso than before certainly, which shows the possibility they could be reformed to be even more hands-off than they already are and more like Guardians of the Balance rather than enforcers of it.

Notha is all ready to commit deicide and yet never stopped to think of the Lords as people, only ever as a kind of non-person she calls "oppressors" to justify her irrational hatred of them, and her attempts to exterminate/harm them. She could not have picked a more benevolent pantheon to be angry at, and over a petty reason too. They lied? Big whoop. People do that all the time and nobody advocates we kill everyone who lies. They sought greater latitudes of control over people? Ok but what did they do with it? Nothing horrible? I fail to see the problem here. Humans with that kind of control over people inevitably become monstrous tyrants and cause incredible amounts of human suffering, all the Avatars did with it was try to maintain the peace and balance of the world with it so Lore could remain habitable. That's pretty amazing and highly respectable.

And lets not forget that the Avatars are one of the biggest things standing in the way of existential threats like the Shadowscythe and preventing it from running roughshod all over Lore and probably all of creation. Lest we forget, the hero failed to ever stop Sepulchure or even scratch him, and he was only ever wounded and harmed by betrayal at a pivotal moment. Without Drakath's betrayal Sepulchure might have been unstoppable short of direct intervention from the Avatars. Getting rid of them is no doubt top of the list of priorities for Doom/The Shadowscythe, whose purposes Notha seems to be unwittingly serving. I'm half expecting the Mysterious Stranger to return at the end of the war and reveal this was all his doing once again, and that he is responsible for Notha's suffering to make her the perfect tool to attack the Avatars.

The Lords have been as much slaves as everyone else. Until the prophecies began to be fulfilled, they were slaves to their duty to maintain order and balance in the world. Not merely slaves of the body but slaves of the mind as well. They were seemingly created for that one purpose and until now only ever knew of that one purpose and couldn't comprehend any other way to exist. And Notha would kill them or otherwise harm them for that alone? She's no different than the monsters that she has made them out to be in her own head. In fact I'd wager all of her hatred of the strawmen she's built of the Avatars is her own self-loathing and she's just projecting her own worst aspects onto them. Once you realize that the Lords are as much slaves as everyone else, Notha's "revenge" can be seen for what it actually is: a would-be tyrant abusing victims. Thankfully Lock and Key seem to be understanding of this and thus they try and reform and teach the Lords how to be free from their own mind prisons and become actual free beings with responsibilities, rather than the mere tools with roles to play that they arguably were before, serving only the balance and knowing nothing else. The Avatars deserve sympathy and compassion without denigration, patronizing, or disrespect. They were, in Fiamme's words, left confused and rudderless after the end of Book 1. Lock and Key state that the Avatar's responsibilities ended where the prophecies began, which explains how they felt this way. They've never known anything other than their duty and are just now becoming accustomed to the idea of not needing to bear that burden any longer. They need time, help, and understanding. I for one look forward to (and sorely hope for) a future where the Avatars take their place as true gods, patron deities instead of servants of some greater cause like balance. With each Avatar being free to be their own individual and pursue their own goals and desires. Imagine if some of them incarnated themselves down onto Lore and lived among mortals, learning, growing, and developing their own unique character traits and having experiences. And I'm not just saying that because I want to be best bros with Temblor and Voidstar and get to know Neso a little better IYKWIM. I'd love a future version of DF where the player can even do things like swear loyalty to one Elemental Lord or another, do quests, unlock cool shops with cool and powerful elemental weapons, have interesting and engaging interactions with the Avatars themselves and their servants as well. It could all be a great way to further expand on the cosmology of Dragonfable, and what better way to do it than having the hero befriend the gods and develop a relationship with them beyond just being their champion?

Just because Notha and Jaania both had tragic backstories does not excuse their actions and the suffering they knowingly cause in the selfish pursuit of their goals. They need to convince themselves otherwise though, which is why neither of them will ever back down from their positions. They've locked themselves into a psychological prison of their own devising. To admit that they were wrong about the "nobility" of their goals is to remove the excuse of "its for the greater good" that was serving as a protective barrier around their conscience as they commit atrocities in the name of that "greater good" (which as I said is really just a selfish goal born from their own personal pain).

As someone I know likes to say: "Hurting people hurt people." This describes both Notha and Jaania to T. They are hurting, so they lash out in pain at at the world and cause as much suffering as they can while protecting their conscience by couching their actions in self-delusions that their goal is an altruistic one, instead of selfish like it really is.

Everyone who fights on Jaania's side willingly has had mostly negative interactions with magic, hence they, like her, lash out at magic and claim their actions noble to protect their own egos as they commit atrocities. Notha was obviously a disturbed little girl with horribly neglectful parents who didn't get her prayers to the Avatars answered as a child and so she lashes out at them while claiming she's doing it "for everyone." Honestly, nothing makes me more sick with rage than someone who behaves that way. Don't claim you are fighting for me or anyone else, don't use me as a moral shield to protect your own conscience from conviction and guilt. If you want to cause suffering and pain because you are suffering, just admit it to yourself and then say so openly, and I can at least respect your honesty though not your intent.

On a more positive note, I just did 100 waves today on my first day of participating in the war. May be small beans for others but its my current record for waves-per-day. I've found Deathknight and ODMK to be the best at efficiently processing waves in 1 or 2 turns reliably, but if anyone can suggest any other classes I'd be glad to hear them.

As for the new format, I'm cool with it, but would like the option of choosing between the old format and this one in future wars. Also, the gauntlet-style is very appealing to me but it has one issue: I can't just farm wave after wave I have to be brought back to the war screen after each wave. If we could have a "Crusade" mode or something where we just jump from wave to wave with an automated heal in between and the option every 5 or 10 waves or so to leave that would be fantastic. Or maybe have a "Do you want to return after 5 waves, 10 waves, or never" option where the "Never" option has a button that's always on screen to make your current wave the last one before you return to camp. Less clicking, more slaughter! With a "Crusade" mode I could probably lose myself in waves for hours and hours, jamming to the OST, listening to podcasts, or doing any number of things. I really don't see the point in making us return to the war screen/war town after every single wave, it demotivates me from doing them tbh.

< Message edited by SeigusDarkon -- 8/17/2021 11:11:31 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 45
8/17/2021 20:46:53   

Love the new Chain Wave mechanic! If this is a new permanent feature to wars, I'll always use it.
DF  Post #: 46
8/17/2021 21:14:44   
Chaosweaver Amon

I LOVE the new chain wave mechanic. It's so much more efficient and convenient. Definitely would love to see it in future wars.
DF AQW  Post #: 47
8/17/2021 21:44:02   

ArchKnight DragonFable


You taught 1v4s were doable. Now try this!
DF  Post #: 48
8/17/2021 21:59:20   

I like the chain wave mechanic, but I wish that there was a constant counter on the number of chain waves I still had left.
Like imagine if I DID attempt the 25 long chain, and somewhere in that, I lost count (I already did, even with just a 7 long chain).

I also wish that the chain thing resulted in not needing DDR, but thats just me.

Also... Jaania and Notha are basically Book 3's Konan. Stuff happened to them - They grieved - They blamed magic and the things that specifically controlled that magic - they tried to use some of the power they found for themselves.
Okay. not 100% the same, but there are similarities.
We've seen characters a little like this in the past.
Just so happens that Notha is annoyed at the Avatars themselves, and Jaania at the essence of Magic.

No one here plays AQW? Are we not talking about Fiamme? ESPECIALLY considering that she was enslaved by Wargoth in Book 2? I feel that there may be significant... discussions on that, and what happened "recently" in AQW.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 49
8/17/2021 22:38:25   

This chain wave feature is a keeper for sure! It would be nice if it remembered our inputs though, and it looks like text goes from right to left which is a little odd. I'm sure it's intended to be more fine-tuned in the future though.

And it looks like the 25% unlock let's us choose between the traditional wave format and the DDR gauntlet, which is nice.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 50
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