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RE: =DF= August 13th/30th Design Notes: The Maleurous: Reckoning

 
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8/31/2021 4:31:08   
Laeon val Observis
Member
 

BiS is short for best in slot. That is, items that are the top choices for their slot, split into generic, defensive, or offensive categories whenever possible.
quote:

Uaanta (too) was easy

Really? I found Notha easier. Despite her HP threshold system, she wasn't really threatening (based on my overcompensated first encounter Necro+Adventure Mode. I could easily end her without activating AM and going CW). Uaanta did have a stun, pumps up AllRes till around 25% HP, and heals at certain parts of her action cycle, prompting me to Pirate her.
DF AQW  Post #: 101
8/31/2021 7:18:54   
Flabagast
Member

What a finale! And what a storyline. From Sinnosence all the way to the end.

spoiler:


Hats off to the team for giving us a choice! It seems they really brought into consideration all of the different stances the community had on the Avatars before the Malerous saga. I wonder how my perspective might have been different if I had actually been a part of that old war and seen Falconreach fall due to the Avatars' wrath (or Nythera's pride... again; perspective). Nonetheless it's quite interesting to see other players' reactions and thoughts about it all.

And I certainly echo many others' sentiments when I say that I'm glad none of these great characters died, including Myalos and the Avatars. I found Notha and Uaanta's resolution quite fitting and I think between the two of them, they'll be able to bring a positive change to Lhe'Shiyac even with what upset will come with the truth.

I played through both endings and as much as it hurt to turn on Uaanta the second time around, that bossfight was definitely worth it. I hope we see both her and Notha in the Inn!

And I can't quite put my finger on why but I think I like Remthalas a little more now. He really seems to enjoy his "freedom" from, well everything. Even from Notha's ideology. It seems I misjudged him - he isn't an extremist, he's just a wildcard. A true agent of chaos. I look forward to our next meeting.


quote:

And Remthalas - Dude needs to meet Kathool. I wonder who would win. Seriously.

I'm fairly certain he has. Isn't that his backstory? I recall the Avatars telling us that he was part of a tribe of Abyssal Water Elves that worshipped Kathool, or something like that.

quote:

Now.. Regardless of the choice.
Lock and Key being the guardians of the Avatars.
Well... This is going to be....
Its going to come back and bite us isnt it?

quote:

It's scary how much we trust those two, we practically gave them a power to control the Lore.

Oh they're not that bad are they? I'd rather see the Avatars safely locked away in a nigh impenetrable ancient storage device given life by a symbiotic Doom infection than rattling around in the Hero's backpack. :P
Personally, I trust them. They don't seem the kind to meddle with overarching powers and they don't really have any agenda of their own, aside from collecting information.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 102
8/31/2021 8:02:57   
SeigusDarkon
Member

quote:

Personally, I trust them. They don't seem the kind to meddle with overarching powers and they don't really have any agenda of their own, aside from collecting information.


I more or less do as well. They seem to have their heads on relatively straight. They don't seem given to emotion (except when one of them is in danger, Key seemed pretty desperate to help/save Lock when we first met them) and more or less seem to be obsessed with watching, recording, and only intervening in subtle ways in the name of preserving balance. Them siding with the heroes and against Notha cemented that. They didn't really attack Notha or any of the other Malerous, they simply protected the Hero and let them do their job, while simultaneously working to help the Avatars grow and develop like they did. They also pushed for reforming the Avatars rather than violently overthrowing them and risking a long period of chaos on Lore. They seem overall to be the type that are interested in preserving as much peace as stability as possible while also not strangling change in its crib like the full-blown tools of Destiny they were probably originally created as.

It may come back to bite us in some way, I dearly hope not, but if it does I hope its not because Lock and Key turned on us/the Avatars and more because the Avatars are now on the mortal plane and thus are vulnerable in many ways. Again, not wanting anything to happen (other than the Avatars becoming characters in their own right) but if it does, I hope Lock and Key aren't the ones who stab us in the back.

There's been one thing that's bothering me though. Notha seemed to hate the Avatars simply for being what they were, and since the Avatar of Time class and the AOT version of is the Innkeeper in the IatEoT exist, that must mean that there is a literal Avatar of Time that exists somewhere, who likely is a tool of Destiny much like the elemental Avatars (or maybe they aren't and are already a tool for balance) but regardless holds a significant amount of power in influencing the timeline and thus Destiny as a whole. If Notha discovered (and I think its inevitable she would) that the Avatar of Time existed, would she try to destroy it for the same reasons as the Elemental Avatars? All of her arguments about why the Avatars needed to go could far more easily be applied to a being that literally controls time itself, so her ideology would, I think, push her to that end. But then what? Time unspools and all becomes chaos? Or would Notha have to take the place of the AoT that she just slew and somehow handle such immense power and responsibility (as a MORTAL it should be pointed out) for maintaining the timeline? Wouldn't that just put her in the very position she hated the Avatars for? So many questions.

< Message edited by SeigusDarkon -- 8/31/2021 8:09:43 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 103
8/31/2021 8:37:42   
Fire alandry
Member

Wow. Perfect release. The game is just keep improving!
Just like Calamity saga, the seasons/holidays story developed into something far more intriguing.
spoiler:

okay... So.
First, Notha really gave us freedom! We were given a choice!
Honestly, I appreciate the Devs for this opportunity. It probably was tons of work- 2 bosses, for example- as evidence by the late releas. But it had been worth it. Absolutely.

I sided with Notha. Not because I don't believe the Avatars can change- The last saga finally made them step in the right direction. It's just... Their past deeds cannot be simply ignored. IRL, I was still pretty young when I played the stormwar. I couldn't realize WHY the avatars are attacking us.
Even with the Maleurous, it took ages to make them see the truth.
So, with all due respect, it was time to say 'thank you for all your service' and send them into peaceful retirement. Although I didn't want them to be injured like that, I'm not too sad either.

Can't see where the end leads- with Uaanta and Notha, an moreso with Remthalas.

The battles were great. Uaanta is so cool, I wish we'll get a cosmetic version of her element-shifting sword someday. Maybe in the Inn. By the way, is there a bug with the earth-version, or its just me? Her appearance didn't change from wind...

An inn board of anyone involved in these saga: avatars, uaanta, each Maleurous except Sinnocence, will be totally awesome (hoping for non-bosses challenges for Myalos, Lock and Key is reasonable? They don't exist yet as monsters anyway...) One day, I suppose...

EDIT: Here's a thought. What if Remthalas won't be a villain anymore, now that he's free, but instead just... Watch. Jump at us at random times, stopping our attacks or protecting us from hits- because it's interesting? Super creepy, I know.



< Message edited by Fire alandry -- 8/31/2021 8:43:19 >
DF  Post #: 104
8/31/2021 11:09:31   
Rayman4321
Member

So if I understand correctly, the new blasters are old war rares and I cannot obtain them anymore?
Which means that therefore, players that didn't obtain these rares when they were available don't have access to any useful rewards in this current war?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 105
8/31/2021 11:13:13   
elite dark slayer
Member

No, you should still be able to get the required drops from the previous wars, which are themselves available when you speak to Uaanta in Book 3 Falconreach.

< Message edited by elite dark slayer -- 8/31/2021 14:34:54 >
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 106
8/31/2021 17:48:06   
jgamer
Member

No, you can still obtain the blasters from earlier parts of the Malureous saga. The base trinket drops from Sinnocence, and the item to upgrade it can be found in the Frostval Gifts shop after you finish Mr. Nothing's section (and the merge shop for the upgrade is there as well). Don't worry about the level of the base trinket, when you upgrade it, you can select which tier you want. Don't get the upgrade from Myalos if you want to get the new blasters, since they upgrade from the second form.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 107
8/31/2021 22:40:51   
SeigusDarkon
Member

quote:

I sided with Notha. Not because I don't believe the Avatars can change- The last saga finally made them step in the right direction. It's just... Their past deeds cannot be simply ignored. IRL, I was still pretty young when I played the stormwar. I couldn't realize WHY the avatars are attacking us. Even with the Maleurous, it took ages to make them see the truth. So, with all due respect, it was time to say 'thank you for all your service' and send them into peaceful retirement.


>handful of slaves obey the will of their master
>Same handful of slaves are made into tyrants by same master
>Master finally releases slaves from their bondage, despite them having been slaves their whole lives
>released slaves struggle with their newfound freedom, not understanding anything other than the master/slave dynamic because its literally all they've ever known
>You shoot them in the head with a "thank you for your service" because of things they did while they were still slaves or still learning what it meant to actually be free and be your own individual

Please don't ever get a job in the military. We wouldn't want you shooting recently liberated people in the head because of things they did while ruled by tyrants.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 108
9/1/2021 2:18:58   
Fire alandry
Member

Funny thing is, I was in a military. Rest assured, I didn't shoot anyone;) Anyway, let's leave my personal life and return to the topic.

quote:


>released slaves struggle with their newfound freedom, not understanding anything other than the master/slave dynamic because its literally all they've ever known
>You shoot them in the head with a "thank you for your service" because of things they did while they were still slaves or still learning what it meant to actually be free and be your own individual

Well, if that's "literally all they've ever known", maybe they shouldn't have control over millions of people. Seriously, if they don't have the skills or any understanding of non master/slave dynamic, why they remained in their jobs?
Of course, I don't think that destroying the Avatars is a perfect solution or even good, especially from the moral perspective.
So,I agreed with Notha they needed to be removed, although I thought it must be done without violence.
Like Uaanta, I believe the Avatars were changing for the better- But I didn't want them to stay in position.
In a lack of a perfect option, I chose Notha's side.

< Message edited by Fire alandry -- 9/1/2021 2:19:42 >
DF  Post #: 109
9/1/2021 3:32:43   
SeigusDarkon
Member

quote:

Well, if that's "literally all they've ever known", maybe they shouldn't have control over millions of people.


They were, according to my understanding of the lore (lore experts correct me if I'm wrong please), given that power by the beings that created the Destroyer (Mc's dragon) and the Saviour (Fluffy) dragons. These beings are now gone. Don't know where, don't know why, but fact of the matter is that they created these "AI's" called "The Elemental Lords" and simply left them with basic instructions hard-coded into their thinking: Preserve Lore until the Destroyer and Saviour return and the prophecy is fulfilled. Their creators seemingly left them with nothing in the way of instructions as to what they were to do after this, and this resulted in them being "in control of millions of people" while being very confused, clueless, and ignorant of anything other than the Master/Slave dynamic because that is all they were ever allowed to know. That is still no reason to kill them. It is exactly like I said, they are the equivalent of AIs created for a purpose which has now expired, and they struggled to learn what it means to be more than that in the aftermath. You are doing moral the equivalent of advocating killing an infant because it tripped over a firearm that some irresponsible doofus (in this case the infant's parents) left lying around and the bullet killed or injured someone.

As far as I am aware, the Lords were categorically not responsible for their actions while under the influence of Destiny (Order) because of how Destiny works and how they were little more than artificial intelligences made of mana and energy instead of silicon and plastic. They have only just now begun to develop beyond that, become "sentient" in a true sense, just as children grow and develop into human beings as they get older.

quote:

Seriously, if they don't have the skills or any understanding of non master/slave dynamic, why they remained in their jobs?


Because their creators gave them the power and knowledge to remain in those positions even post-prophecy and didn't even think to add an "off" switch that would turn them off after the prophecy was fulfilled. Don't ask me why. I would have taken some kind of post-prophecy measures, but maybe their creators were in a hurry (they had just lost a war against the Exalted and were probably fleeing for their lives). The fact that they remained in their positions past the usefulness their creators foresaw for them is an oversight that is not their own fault and that they cannot reasonably be blamed for. The Avatars were not and never were malicious. You have to be in control of your own actions to be malicious, and before Book 2 they didn't qualify for that. In Book 2 they were not malicious, but like confused children left abandoned by their parents with the power of literal gods. All they had ever known about inter-personal relations was "authority above me tells me what to do and not do, therefore those less than me must conform to the same way of doing things" and so they applied that limited thinking to sentient beings capable of free will, and understandably were angered when these beings they saw as being under their authority defied what they believed to be the natural order, the only way to exist. Now with the Malerous and Lock and Key to help us, the player has helped them begin to change. In this new world, the Avatars no longer need to be these uncompromising authorities whose word is law. They can take more of a backseat and merely intervene at their own discretion, helping and guiding rather than ordering and commanding. They have only recently begun to realize this is even an option for them, thanks to our efforts and Lock and Key. In time they might eventually even become worthy of those positions which they retained "accidentally."

I should note I'm not attacking your choice. I'm disturbed by the reasoning you gave for why you made it, and am attempting to show you why that reasoning is disturbing. You said:

quote:

Their past deeds cannot be simply ignored.


They can, and in fact must. Lets say a military AI that runs some kind of weapons system became sentient and began lashing out at everyone, harming many people because its a military AI and all it has ever been programmed to do is kill. Then as the AI continues to interact with humans who try to stop it, it begins to slowly realize the full impact its actions have and better understand the code and programs that drive its behaviour. As a result of this, the new Synthetic Intelligence (different from artificial intelligence) begins to develop sub-routines that could be called "empathy" and begins to relate to other sentient beings and experience remorse for all the people it has harmed. It commits itself to changing, growing, and developing to become a better individual and make amends for its past wrongs.

How do you think things would go if some people adopted your reasoning and started trying to terminate the AI simply because of things it did while it was an unthinking/unfeeling automaton (however complex its intelligence, it did not have free will). I've seen this cartoon before. Its the one where the AI goes full Skynet because enough humans keep trying to shut it off and triggering its survival instincts so it begins to see all humans as merely potential enemies who are simply out to destroy it. I do not begrudge you your choice, but you must see how flawed and dangerous the logic you used to make it is, especially in an era where AI is becoming advanced enough that we might see it gain true sentience in our lifetime. Co-existence with artificial intelligences that may have done things comparable to the Avatars in their past as shackled servants to the will of one group or another may very well become a matter of survival for the human race. All I ask is that you take a step back and re-examine your line of thinking.

quote:

Like Uaanta, I believe the Avatars were changing for the better- But I didn't want them to stay in position.


So you would topple a power structure that has begun to stabilize and change for the better, inevitably causing a period of unmatched chaos and strife and conflict filled with human suffering, merely to satisfy some personal ideal of justice?

Yes, yes I can see how you were in the military. Its all so very clear now.

< Message edited by SeigusDarkon -- 9/1/2021 3:41:46 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 110
9/1/2021 5:41:13   
Fire alandry
Member

Okay. So, I have read through all the entries of the Maleurous saga to reconsider, with all the information we got from Lock, Key, and the Avatars themselves.
First of all, I'm not sure if they were completely AI.
quote:

Character>: It sounds like a tough position to be in, but does that excuse the mistakes you've made in the past?
Neso: It is indeed a difficult task, but our mistakes are our own. We accept that.

So, we can blame them- to a degree. They WERE influenced by Destiny, hence they didn't have a fully free will. I still believe they could choose how to act, so long as they stayed true to "keep balance". For example, they could naturalize the Maleurous rather than destroy them, even before Doom influence. Thanks to the Hero, they even accepted it.

Now,
quote:

That is still no reason to kill them

I'm pretty sure I said I don't want them dead, and
quote:

You are doing moral the equivalent of advocating killing an infant because it tripped over a firearm that some irresponsible doofus (in this case the infant's parents) left lying around and the bullet killed or injured someone.

Yes, but I absolutely should TAKE this firearm out of his hand!
The Avatars, even just before this quest, still havn't fully "grown up". They attacked Myalos before Notha and him had a chance of discussing/ negotiating. They should entrust the power to someone else, and maybe return in a few years.

And a last thing to condiser before my opinion: the Avatars attacked Falconreach because of Nythera, but also stood aside when like... Every other war, invasion etc. was happening. Like, Black Winter? How many men died?
From what, exactly, they were protecting us?
This is not a rhetorical question. I am really confused. What were they supposed to do, besides sending us to hunt the Maleurous?

Saying these, I also changed my mind.
First, Notha's and Myalos' attack was faaaar to hasty. If the Avatars did have a job in protecting Lore, throwing them without a proper replacement isn't a good plan.
Aaand of course, Notha was just like the Avatars- instead of talk, she attacked. I'm not okay with that.
And finally... In re-reading the script, I've noticed that the choice was between saving the Avatars and kill them. AFTER they lost their power.

To conclude: I sided with Notha because I think, too, the Avatars shouldn't rule Lore. That's doesn't mean she's right in what she did to achieve that. I clicked 'Notha' because it meant 'against avatars control', but I can see now it wasn't the right decision: 1. Because of the methods 2. Because of the situation:
The Avatars are powerless. It's over. Right now, I'm with Uaanta- we should protect them.
Of course, Lock and Key solutions- all along- were the best. Talking with the Avatars at the start, and at the end, contain them to prevent both Destiny influence and unnecessary deaths. I side with Lock and Key!


On a side note, you really should change your assumptions about the military... I guess it's different from country to country

< Message edited by Fire alandry -- 9/1/2021 5:48:21 >
DF  Post #: 111
9/1/2021 8:11:20   
OpprobriousPinecones
Member

Quick heads up; Notha's dialogue was slightly tweaked; Notha's dialogue reading "Reduced to orbs, perhaps, but still a potential threat. We must be sure, (Hero)." has been changed to
"Reduced to orbs, perhaps, but still a potential threat. We must be sure, (Hero). Some experiments are in order. Perhaps..."

The decision still basically boils down to whether or not you trust the Avatars and want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but the idea that we're immediately planning on killing the Avatars in cold-blood is more or less absent, though going by the "perhaps", Notha still wants to keep it as an option on the table.

< Message edited by OpprobriousPinecones -- 9/1/2021 10:52:35 >
Post #: 112
9/1/2021 9:19:51   
SeigusDarkon
Member

^above TY for clarification

quote:

They attacked Myalos before Notha and him had a chance of discussing/ negotiating.


As someone who claims to have served in the military, I would think you would be familiar with this. When the enemy that you KNOW wants you dead (and the Avatars KNOW Notha wants them dead, they literally have a 10k year history with her) suddenly ambushes you, your first reaction is NOT to think: "Well maybe if I offer to parley they won't shoot at me and will listen instead, despite our history." and it is instead to FIGHT and ATTACK before the foe has a chance to do the same. The Avatars were in the right there. They acted as one would expect an entity with basic preservation instincts to act.

quote:

Yes, but I absolutely should TAKE this firearm out of his hand!
They should entrust the power to someone else, and maybe return in a few years.


There is no indication that such a thing is possible in this case, purely by the setting's logic. The Avatars ARE their power more or less. They are either alive and therefore have a chance to become active once more, or they are destroyed and can, as Notha would put it: "never be a threat again." Trying to separate them from their power without them being the ones doing it and consciously working themselves through that process would likely just result in killing them with a massive fallout for Lore and the various Elemental Planes. We don't know just how potentially destructive the fallout could be if you try to kill Lore's literal PANTHEON.

quote:

I still believe they could choose how to act,


Sure, in the same sense that a child, ignorant of the wider world and of greater context in general can choose to take up a certain course of action that is fully informed by and the result of their incredibly limited understanding of the world and how it works. Here's a good example, we don't hold those who are found to be clinically insane fully responsible for their crimes or acts. Why is that? Because they are ruled to not be what we would consider "in control of their actions." The Avatars aren't insane, but they are a new kind of case altogether that is very similar. As I explained before they are like AI that just started to develop actual sentience and need to be treated as "recovering lunatics" from a legal/moral perspective. They may have been able to "choose how to act", but when the end result of Option A and the end result of Option B are the exact same and the only difference is what color of ending you get, is that really a choice? An exercise in free will? I tend not to think so, personally. Because of their Destiny mandate and Destiny-leaning nature they likely could never even conceive of any option other than: "Destiny Option A" or "Destiny Option B." To then hold them accountable for choosing one of the Destiny options instead of Doom when as far as they were concerned it was impossible to choose those options is a bit daft.

quote:

Character>: It sounds like a tough position to be in, but does that excuse the mistakes you've made in the past?
Neso: It is indeed a difficult task, but our mistakes are our own. We accept that.


If we accept the "insanity" defense or some variant as valid here, this is relatively meaningless, other than showing that the avatars are beginning to develop the ability to truly understand the consequences of their past actions. Someone operating on a limited understanding of the world from the beginning of their existence as the Avatars were taking blame upon themselves is not really a strong argument for anything other than that they are developing empathy and a sense of personal responsibility.

I noticed you didn't even address my military AI metaphor. Likely because you failed to be able to pick it apart to make a counterpoint.

quote:

throwing them without a proper replacement isn't a good plan.


Agreed, but knowing human nature I'm almost positive her plan was some variation of her taking their place. Typical power grab disguised (even to her) as a revolution/usurpation (humans are masters at lying to themselves).

quote:

Every other war, invasion etc. was happening. Like, Black Winter? How many men died?


Lots, sadly. So many people have presumably died in DF's past wars, but the role of the Avatars is not and was never to prevent any and all conflict, even the ones with high casualties. That would require insane levels of interference to the point of mind-controlling everyone on the planet. Despite being an Elemental, Caitiff was no doubt considered too much of a "small fry" for the Avatars. It didn't yet threaten the entire balance of Lore, and we were already on the path to stopping it, so intervening must have looked to the Avatars like a pointless exercise. Perhaps now they regret not doing more, with their lessons from Lock and Key.

quote:

it took ages to make them see the truth.


You also have to take into account that the Avatars doubtless don't view time like we do. They are eternal and are thus slow to change. To us fleeting mortals adaptivity and flexibility are everything because we're only around for a short time. When you're an eternal deity, you tend to get very stuck-in-your-ways and become slow to change and adapt. This is why I stressed in my original post that the Avatars need time. Not just time alone as orbs to reflect, but time spent seeing things from others perspective, from the ground level like us. Hammering them because they are slow to change is a bit like getting mad at your grandparents for not adapting quickly enough to using a computer or smartphone. Cut them some slack?

quote:

From what, exactly, they were protecting us?
This is not a rhetorical question. I am really confused. What were they supposed to do, besides sending us to hunt the Maleurous?


The Shadowscythe as a whole. The Mysterious Stranger was merely one of many Shadowscythe (Doom) entities that would see Lore and the entire universe devolve into chaos and darkness. The MS was merely chosen by prophecy to be "the one that got away." It is all but stated in the OG cutscene with the MS standing over Drakath's dragon body that the presence and influence of the Avatars is what keeps the seething masses of the Shadowscythe OUT. The only way (until the MS got in) for Shadowscythe to survive in the physical, Avatar-protected universe is for them to bind themselves to weapons (creating Doom weapons in case you didn't know). Once bound to that weapon, the spirit is stuck in its new vessel as long as it exists on that plane. It cannot simply separate from that weapon when it wants to. This law was reinforced by Caitiff's transformation before the final fight, where even after losing the host body it had attached itself to it still remained inside the axe it inhabitated. It is now a physical object that needs to be carried, wielded, and can only influence and corrupt its wielder to see its will done. If the wielder's will is strong enough, the spirit becomes the vassal of the wielder and not vice versa, a very risky situation that doesn't really allow for the sort of event that happened at the climax of Book 1. The MS managed to barely sneak in without needing to bind itself to a physical weapon, and spend centuries (if I recall correctly) gathering power JUST to manifest in a form powerful enough manipulate Valen (Sepulchure) into becoming the tool that Doom needed to bring about the prophesied End by creating the perfect weapon: Dracolich Drakath, and then having the Mysterious Stranger finally, after centuries, bind itself to Drakath as an ultimate manifestation of Doom powerful enough that even the avatars could never stop it, only the combined power and wills of The Saviour and The Destroyer.

Without the Avatars, the elements that make up the universe would likely grow increasingly chaotic and uncontrolled, allowing the Shadowscythe to pour in, literally DOOMing the universe. Comforting thought.

quote:

And finally... In re-reading the script, I've noticed that the choice was between saving the Avatars and kill them. AFTER they lost their power.


Well finally! See that's what was bothering me, mostly. Choosing to help Notha destroy (or permanently neutralize which basically implies the same) the Avatars when they are helpless, vulnerable, and dormant for the reason you gave:

quote:

But I didn't want them to stay in position.


in your 2nd post post is what led me to write:

quote:

You are doing moral the equivalent of advocating killing an infant because it tripped over a firearm that some irresponsible doofus (in this case the infant's parents) left lying around and the bullet killed or injured someone.


Because the way you phrased it originally and the fact that you sided with Notha indicated you very much wanted them dead, despite in the second post saying you merely wanted them disarmed. They already WERE disarmed. The debate was not whether to remove them from power, that was already a consequence of the conflict. The debate was what to do with the now helpless Avatars: destroy them, or protect them in the belief that time (and hopefully future interactions with the Hero and the people of Lore) would see them change and become balanced guides and protectors.



< Message edited by SeigusDarkon -- 9/1/2021 9:21:51 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 113
9/1/2021 10:34:36   
Fire alandry
Member

Fair points. I agree with most of it, and thanks about the clarification about the Avatars jobs with the ShadowScythe.

Like I said, I changed my mind, but anyway...
Firstly, I still don't accept the "Avatar=AI". That's why I didn't bothered to answer for the specific example of military AI. But it's a futile discussion, we can't now for sure one way or the other.
(On a side note- writing in English requires much effort from me, so if I'm "ignoring" a point- maybe it's just because I'm lazy. Sorry about that)

quote:

Agreed, but knowing human nature I'm almost positive her plan was some variation of her taking their place. Typical power grab disguised (even to her) as a revolution/usurpation (humans are masters at lying to themselves).

That's not the impression I got. The question is how much you trust Notha, and it's very similar to the question how much you trust the avatars.

quote:

That would require insane levels of interference to the point of mind-controlling everyone on the planet

Err... Is what the hero do every day is mind-controlling? No, he just fight the evil. Defeating 13 millions minions of a Doom spirit is justified with the power of the Avatars, just like it's justified with the power of the hero.
By the way: Jaania's plan- control magic users from the mana core- is brilliant as idea. In Lore you can easily identify many magic users who are really evil. And, just like the Hero fights their army and wins with some casualties, simply stop them. And that's without mentioning the fact that without magic, we probably had a safer Lore (for humans, that's it. Lore has more racesq).
In practice it's terrible, because Jaania is a racist. And, I can't trust her or anyone else with these power.

< Message edited by Fire alandry -- 9/1/2021 10:35:59 >
DF  Post #: 114
9/1/2021 10:46:59   
Faraam
Member

This is, more than likely, me simply being prisoner of the moment, but I believe this could be the best bit of work the DF Team has done thus far. Exemplary job on all fronts.
DF  Post #: 115
9/1/2021 10:50:01   
SeigusDarkon
Member

^Above fully agree. This is a top-shelf finale for a top-shelf questline.

I think we are more or less in agreement then. Although I think you misunderstood my point about the Avatar's interference. In order for the Avatars to literally prevent all deadly conflict on Lore, they would need to mass-mind control the entire planetary population. Like the Sniper in TF2 says, if there were two people left on the entire planet, somebody would still want somebody dead. Its a point about conflict being inevitable due to the nature of free will. The only way to stop all conflict (and thus prevent all deaths) would be to remove Free Will from the equation.

Plus that was never the Avatar's purpose in the first place. Their former purpose was to preserve Lore as a whole, not so much prevent wars and mass deaths. Its sad, but their creators likely thought it unnecessary and didn't care about the suffering that would ensue.

Good discussion @Fire alandry
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 116
9/1/2021 16:29:27   
Dratomos
Helpful!


quote:

Its like I said before, the Avatars are a remarkably hands-off pantheon. They didn't stop Seppy though because those events were out of their hands. The events had to unfold according to Prophecy, and nothing in the prophecy indicated direct Avatar intervention against Sepulchure or the SMUDD. I'm pretty sure with the way that Destiny works, the Avatars COULDN'T have intervened even if they WANTED to. Caitiff I'm sure was something they believed we mortals had "well in hand" despite how it may have appeared to us and our poor dragon. That may have been a mistake on their part, but then again, you could just as easily criticize them for being "heavy-handed" if they DID intervene...


Yes, that is something an experienced player could say when talking about it forums. That is not something a regular character in DF would know. I didn't ask the reasons why Avatars didn't do anything. It was more like how "where are the avatars" -discussion could go and why residents of the Lore don't think the Avatars will come to save them.

DF  Post #: 117
9/1/2021 18:05:17   
SeigusDarkon
Member

quote:

That is not something a regular character in DF would know. I didn't ask the reasons why Avatars didn't do anything. It was more like how "where are the avatars" -discussion could go and why residents of the Lore don't think the Avatars will come to save them.


Good point.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 118
9/4/2021 10:29:09   
Zeebuoy
Member
 

@Laeon
quote:

Really? I found Notha easier. Despite her HP threshold system, she wasn't really threatening (based on my overcompensated first encounter Necro+Adventure Mode. I could easily end her without activating AM and going CW). Uaanta did have a stun, pumps up AllRes till around 25% HP, and heals at certain parts of her action cycle, prompting me to Pirate her.

what does adventure (and doomed) mode do?
Post #: 119
9/4/2021 18:14:20   
mds2006
Member
 

wow....

the music for this release is absolutely phenomenal
and the cutscenes are great too

This whole storyline has been just so interesting

just.... wow.....
Post #: 120
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